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  #101  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 07:18 PM       
Woah, that's pretty cool! Having not seen the first movie since I've seen Matrix Reloaded, I hadn't even thought about that!

I'm sure that if I were to go back and watch the first one again, I would see a lot of symbolism and parallels that continue into the second movie that I never noticed before.

I like what Cornel West said in that article you posted. That the critics haven't quite caught on to the depth of the second movie yet, but the scholars are on the road to figuring it out.
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  #102  
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 07:50 PM       
I haven't had a chance to see Reloaded yet (it was only released here today,) but I'm not bothered about spoilers anyway. I don't know if this has been said yet, but a user at another board I visit came to the conclusion that, since in the first movie it was stated that the Matrix is so realistic that, once you die there, you die in real life too, so it's a possibility that Neo's powers in the matrix have rubbed off into real life.
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  #103  
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 08:09 PM        Matrix
Proto -
The part about the critics is so true. But then, critics are often the worst of the average American movie goer.
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  #104  
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 09:07 PM       
For those of you who didn't catch the entire conversation between Neo and the Architect, here it is:

Quote:
The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bullshit.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.
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  #105  
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Old May 22nd, 2003, 10:55 PM       
I bet all the "people" in the Matrix are really AIs too

-willie
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  #106  
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 07:13 AM       
Cool, thanks Rog.

Vibe's suggestion that the Architect is a former One brought something to my mind that might further support the theory that Zion is another layer of the Matrix.

In the first movie, Morpheus says that humanity believes that the year is somewhere around 2200 (roughly pulled from memory). The Architect says there's been five previous versions of the Matrix which all failed. I would think that each version lasts at the very least one or two centuries before a new One rises. So, either humanity made a gross miscalculation in guessing the year they woke up in, or the real world is closer to the year of 3000.

But if the Architect were a former One in that case, that would have to mean either the One does not exist in the real world, because he is purely a program written in the Matrix - how could the Architect still be alive after all these years, otherwise? - or the Architect, as the One, managed to digitalise his mind to live beyond his human body. Still, it might be interesting. As the former One, he could have reshaped the Matrix the way he saw fit, and probably would not want Neo to destroy his hard work. He might've lied to him.
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  #107  
Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 12:07 PM        Matrix
Thanks Rog! Gives a lot more to ponder. Like the fact that he refers to Neo as both human and possibly a program as well.

BTW - where did you pull it from? I am curious about the reference to the "Other Ones on the screens"
I'd love to know if that is an opinion or what was actually intended.


My suggestion that the Architect was a previous One was in response to someone who thought the french guy might be a former One. All I was trying to say was that based on what I had seen so far IF there was another One that had been shown in the movies it was most likely the Architect.


Eghads this leaves a lot open to interpretation.
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  #108  
timrpgland timrpgland is offline
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 12:12 PM       
Hell, I'm just glad Revolutions isn't that far off.
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  #109  
Protoclown Protoclown is offline
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 07:33 PM        Re: Matrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibecrewangel
I am curious about the reference to the "Other Ones on the screens" I'd love to know if that is an opinion or what was actually intended.
The way I read that it was simply another way of saying "the other Neos on the screens". I don't think it was implying that they were previous "Ones" but I could be wrong.
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  #110  
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 08:01 PM       
Quote:
The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*
Weird that he'd say 'three' if they weren't other 'Ones.' Unless in one choice, he couldn't count.
Then again, weird that he'd say 'five' as another 'One.' And there were definitely more than six Neos on the screens.
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  #111  
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Old May 23rd, 2003, 11:52 PM       
That's kind of what I'd been saying earlier... that there should only have been 5 other Neos, not counting our current one, but there sure were a lot more than 6 responses onscreen, which leads me to think it's all artificially created rather than prerecorded.
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  #112  
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Old May 24th, 2003, 04:03 AM       
the monitors showed the possible answers Neo could have given.
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  #113  
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Old May 24th, 2003, 06:12 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre X
the monitors showed the possible answers Neo could have given.
NO SHIT!

I'm fucking amazed at how many people are saying "they were probably the previous ones". There weren't a shitload of "ones" before neo, and I find it doubtful they looked exactly the same. One of them even gave the finger in the same way he did in the first movie. They sounded the same too.

You people and damn near everyone else in online matrix discussions read way too into things.
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  #114  
timrpgland timrpgland is offline
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Old May 24th, 2003, 12:12 PM       
What I thought was more interesting was the door he picked.
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  #115  
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Old May 24th, 2003, 05:52 PM       
Speaking of doors... did anybody else notice the door "101"? I forget which scene... (or is that the one he picked and the one you're referring to tim?). Was that an Orwell 1984 reference?
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  #116  
timrpgland timrpgland is offline
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Old May 24th, 2003, 06:33 PM       
I'm just referring to the 2 doors that the architect had him choose from. He took the door on his left which was a interesting choice. I want to see how things turn out.
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  #117  
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Old May 24th, 2003, 07:33 PM       
Yes, i saw that too soundtest. Right before they walk into the restaurant to talk to frenchy. I thought it was just a reference to binary code.

Anyway, i saw this today. It kicked copious amounts of ass, fuck all the doubters. I sat next to three kids who felt for some reason that everytime Neo wailed an agent with that pipe that an "OOOOOHHHH" or a "hahaha" was appropriate. I hope they all burn in hell. The people in front of me, for some damned reason, decided to bring their four children, all from 7 to eleven years old. Consequently, the little bastards made a lot of noise during critical moments during speeches. I fucking hate people at the movies.

But the movie itself was so awesome i had several extreme orgasms during it. The freeway fight scene is the coolest thing i have ever seen, there is nothing to rival it. The Hallway battle and the Multiple Smith battle were also mid-blowingly cool, as were scenes of Neo's flight. The twins were fucking cool, and i actually liked Trinity this time, she seemed much cooler and seemed to care much more about Neo than before. I thought the love scene was pretty well done, it made it seem like Neo and Trinity had some love, instead of just seeming like Keanau having sex with Carrie Ann Moss for a different movie. Carrie Ann Moss is kinda cute too, so that doesn't hurt. I like how she's not some 21 year old bimbo they found off the streets, she's an actual actress with a lot of history behind her, and she can play her roles believably. Niobe had some healthy looking teeth, too. The only two things i didn't like were the abrupt end to the movie, and the Dave Matthews song at the credits, but those hardly even count.

Now, for my interpretation of the end. What if the Architect was also a program? He might have been created simply to keep "the one" in check every time, so that he does not find out that perhaps what the Architect offers him truly isn't the only choice that is given to him. Perhaps destroying "The Architect" or by breaking through the master control room somehow, Neo is able to access the true Master Control room. If i'm not mistaken, the Architect was in the Matrix, neo never really accessed the true control room. I doubt the all-knowing master programmer of some virtual-reality world is going to sit in a chair in a room full of TVs all day without having anything to eat or drink.
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  #118  
Johnny Horton Johnny Horton is offline
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Old May 24th, 2003, 07:42 PM       
Keanu Reeves looks really swell in a long dress. Very sexy, if you are so persuaded.
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  #119  
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Old May 25th, 2003, 01:54 AM       
I loved this movie

Better than Star Wars :O
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  #120  
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Old May 25th, 2003, 05:19 AM       
Robo, you are everything that is wrong with the world. Go away.
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  #121  
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Old May 25th, 2003, 12:09 PM       
When is Matrix Revolutions coming ?

After I saw the movie a guy in my class told me something to change my opinion on what happened when NEO stops the sentinels in the end.

One of you explained this by saying that the Smith duplicate with blood on his hands shaked NEOs hand. However, even if this would give Neo the ability to sense the sentinels it would not give him the ability to stop them. And they did stop before they attacked, not immideately like during a EMP and when Neo was expiriencing excruciating pain.

Anyway the solution the person I knew had was that there was another matrix within the matrix, a web within the web. This would suggest that Zion was also a lie and show that the machines had complete controll after all.

Neo is an error in the system, and even though the machines can control him he has more freedom then the others. I think the pain he expirienced when confronted with the sentinels could have been his brain trying to wake up from the "real matrix"
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  #122  
Spectre X Spectre X is offline
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Old May 25th, 2003, 02:02 PM       
my guess is is that that is very wrong. It's too obvious. My guess is, is that Neo can stop the Sentinels in the real world too now because his mind makes it real. Like the injuries he sustains in the Matrix. Because he took the door to save Trinity, he has transcended beyond the One. He has powers in the real world now too, because the glitch in the Matrix programming leading to the creation of the One, is embedded into his mind like the rogue Agent Smith is is in the hand-cutting guy's head. Somehow opening the door to save Trinity has influenced the glitch in his mind firther so that his mind is like he is constantly in the Matrix, only wide awake. This might lead to the fact that he can feel the Sentinels becuase he is AND connected to the MAtrix with his mind from a distance, AND because his mind makes it real like the injuries.

That's my theory.
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  #123  
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Old May 25th, 2003, 03:00 PM       
I'm gonna have to watch this movie a few more times.
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  #124  
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Old May 25th, 2003, 05:17 PM       
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Robo, you are everything that is wrong with the world. Go away.
Spectre X is very good with jokes

You want me to bring up some of your other "classic" idiotic statements?
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  #125  
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Old May 25th, 2003, 05:18 PM       
Snake, skim through the replies in this post, there's ample coverage of the theory that Zion is a second layer of the Matrix, and therefore not real.
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