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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 05:22 PM        Why socialism could not work even with virtuous men.
Socialism, as argued by von Mises, could never work because "pricing systems in socialist economies were necessarily deficient because if government owned the means of production, then no prices could be obtained for capital goods as they were merely internal transfers of goods in a Socialist system and not "objects of exchange" (unlike final goods) - thus they were unpriced and hence the system would be necessarily inefficient."

There was later a critique of this argument, but von Hayek aptly defended Mises's argument.

For more info, look for the economic calculation debate, or click here.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 05:40 PM       
That reminds me of an anecdote I once heared about the manufacturing of soviet tanks many years ago. A bus was produced first, then transported to another factory where tanks were made. The diesel engine was then removed from the bus and installed into the tank. The brand new bus (minus one engine) was recycled.

The soviets were also the only people to ever produce a 20 pound stapler.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 05:50 PM       
When I clicked that link and saw the Lenin/Rouble I knew it was dodgy.

You are going to have to be specific One, because I am tired and I don't see why there has to be pricing on goods that would be given away anway.
MAybe more will come soon.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 06:28 PM       
Essentially, without a pricing system, the value of capital goods could not be accurately determined. Hence, without an accurate value - as dictated in a market economy by interaction of supply and demand - resources would not be as efficiently allocated.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 06:51 PM       
And so goods under todays Capitalist system are acuratly valued? A pair of Nike sneakers cost $200 while a bag of grain is like $10? But of course, we have to take the current environment into acount...

People know what they need and want. A price tag corrupts a persons want.

A kid wants an X box for Chrissie becasue it plays lots of games, not because it costs mum an arm and a leg.

And who says supply and demand isn't happening? People want bread - you make bread. People want Celine Dion - you make Celine Dion.

I was clear with what I was going to say a short time ago.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 07:11 PM       
I smell a sitcom!
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 07:12 PM       
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 08:03 PM       
I don't even think you know what the efficient allocation of resources means.

People want bread, so you make the bread. Okay. But you make the bread through capital goods, which were not efficiently used. Hence, you do not optimize your production of all goods: perhaps bread was overproduced, and shoes underproduced.

A price system prevents such results.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 08:39 PM       
Numero Uno dude, few people are left that still care about pure socialism or communism. They're anachronisms. The tried-and-true method of Europe has come to be social democracy, and the degree to which it lives up to the "social" bit is what remains to be contested. Attacking the absolute end of the spectrum, about which few people care, to advertise your opinions is puerile and stupid.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 09:11 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
I don't even think you know what the efficient allocation of resources means.

People want bread, so you make the bread. Okay. But you make the bread through capital goods, which were not efficiently used. Hence, you do not optimize your production of all goods: perhaps bread was overproduced, and shoes underproduced.

A price system prevents such results.
No it doesn't. You might have the best price in the world for the shittiest product, which you produced efficiently, and what are you left with? A warehouse full of it.

How has a price system prevented that overproduction?
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 10:06 PM       
You know, I've had an epiphony lately, and it has radically changed my world view point. . .So this might seem a little odd coming from me, but I have as much faith in Socialism as I do in Capitalism. Honestly, I do.

I think you're asking the the wrong question One and Only. Instead of asking yourself whether or not Socialism can work, ask yourself instead can anything work, and the inevitable answer you will come to if you are honest with yourself will be no. I think Helm would be better suited for explaining the cyclical, or spiral as he sees it, nature of political philosophy, so I will leave it to him if he wishes to take up any part of this discussion, but while pertinant, it is not the point I wish to elaborate on immediately.

See, for too long, I have concerned myself with how would the people best be governed. In my frustration I've raged at them for being apathetical and unconcerned. . .Without realizing all this time I have been stripping them of their dignity as individuals and disregarding their silently spoken accord. Politics is probably the least important of all things, power is only an illusion after all - a temporary one at that - its the people themselves that truly matter. Endeavouring to work towards the benefit of our fellow man, it is the only thing that truly matters. Capitalism, Democracy, National Socialism, Communism, nothing. Look at the inner city and see what comes of progress without heart, love is everything. If everyone that voted in America did so out of love for another, trying to improve the world, just think about what a beautiful nation this would be.
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Old Oct 28th, 2003, 10:58 PM       
So, you finally show your red underside. Get out of this thread, you Commie!
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 04:58 AM       
I echo Sethomas's sentiments. If you were better people, you would too
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 06:09 AM       
I took the time to look into this and what OAO states as the downfall of socialism is a non existant problem.

the main flaw of the whole von Misses argument is that prices are not determined by exchange in the market place (though they are affected by that) but in the last instance (though in a distorted way) do reflect value which is determined by the amount of socially necessary labour time to produce it.

if you take for instance a large multinational which controls the production of one type of goods completely from the beginning of the chain to the end, and furthermore produces its own capital goods, then you have the same situation as described by von Misses. however this offers no problem to the multinational. though the products are not priced at the different steps of the production chain, they are still accounted in the general accounting of the company.

It is a non existent problem.

the other point about von Misses is that he was criticising bureaucratic planning assuming this was the ONLY type of central planning possible, and even though it was from the 20'S, it more acuratley fits in with Stalinist beuracracy - in which case it is not a socialised economy anyway.

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few people are left that still care about pure socialism or communism. They're anachronisms.
Anachronisms of the future perhaps? No, wait, fuck you Sethomas. Maybe not on this board, but worlwide there would be many. What are you again? Socialist Democrat? Demcratic Socialist?

If Vince Zeb is still sayin' what needs to be said, then I urge him to join this lively discussion.
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 10:57 AM       
i too, agree with sethomas.
pure capitalism is insanity just as pure socialism.
focus on the extreems is dangerous for it seems to me it leads to fundamentalism which throws out reasoning and allows for hate to take over.
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 11:10 AM       
And what is pure Socialism ranxer? And why is it insane?
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 11:28 AM       
Here's an example of why what you call your socio economic system is a lot less meaningful than how it actually functions work;

A highly placed government offical, lets call him Chick Dainey, favors privitization of work usually done by the militray.

He then retires and becomes the CEO of a large corporation, lets call it Ballihurton, to which he has already stered lucrative contracts.

He then retires as CEO, returns to government and continues funnelling work to his old company in which he still owns large quantities of stock and from which he still recieves 'deffered compensation' the government awards his old company even more contracts, this time without bidding them out and offering them a 'cost plus' deal which gaurantees profit and offers a profit based incentive to overcharge, something his company has done to the government before.

There is no competition, the price is not set, profits are gauranteed, incentive is given to increase prices and privitization has occured only in that a handful of people control the governments conract award system and the same people profit from the 'private' sector companies getting the no bid contracts.

Is Ballihurton a part of the government? Is the Government a subsidiary of all Balllihurton? Is Chick Dainey a civil servant, a Ceo, an Employee or just a revolting, power mad war profiteer?
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 11:46 AM       
Of course Ballihurton is seperate from state! That would be fascist!


I think Chick is just a capitalist.
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 12:05 PM       
Actually, I think Chick is moving the militray industrial complex toward a soviet collective style.

Here's a cautionary quote. Anybody want to hazard a guess who said it WITHOUT using a search engine?

"In the Councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, wether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disasterous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted."
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 12:19 PM       
um, well zukhov, i didn't mean to imply that there is a 'pure' socialism.
my view of socialism isnt going to be the same as your view of socialism etc.
i meant that if we take one idea of government to it's extreem we won't have a sane system no matter what the idea is. the only hope i have for peace is compromise.. there is no 'perfect' system, any system set up has to have room to grow or evolve.

i took oao's arguements to lean toward witch burning of anything that could be construed as socialist leaning. americans jump on this too often and it's spooky.. in many circles if someone says there's some good points to communism(or socialism) the audience starts to go insane with bloodlust screaming 'he's a communist! evil! banish the evil one!' throwing all reasoning out the window.

i found it just nuts that when i was out protesting the start of military action against iraq at least 6% of the passers by and pro-war group called us communists! it was funny at the time but sometimes it's a nightmare :/
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 12:31 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
Actually, I think Chick is moving the militray industrial complex toward a soviet collective style.

Here's a cautionary quote. Anybody want to hazard a guess who said it WITHOUT using a search engine?

"In the Councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, wether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disasterous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted."
I'm going to take a stab and say Ike.
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 02:09 PM       
Your stab is quite correct, sir. It was indeed Ike.

Unless you meant Ike Turner, in which case you're wrong.
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 05:12 PM       
"Ida May, you best be watching out for that Military Industrial Complex. Otherwise, I'ma beat you stupid."
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 06:15 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
I took the time to look into this and what OAO states as the downfall of socialism is a non existant problem.

the main flaw of the whole von Misses argument is that prices are not determined by exchange in the market place (though they are affected by that) but in the last instance (though in a distorted way) do reflect value which is determined by the amount of socially necessary labour time to produce it.
Prices are determined by the interaction of supply and demand, outside of monopolies (which the state essentially is and/or helps create). That is basic economic knowledge that most of us were taught by our 7th grade teachers. Obviously, other factors contribute, such as inflation, labor resources, etc. Listing all the factors would be arbitrary. The point is, a products value is not determined by the necessary labor time to create it. If it tooke me three hours to create a hammer, and three hours to create a computer program, would they be worth the same? No. Thus, the most efficient system to determine value is the pricing system.

Quote:
if you take for instance a large multinational which controls the production of one type of goods completely from the beginning of the chain to the end, and furthermore produces its own capital goods, then you have the same situation as described by von Misses. however this offers no problem to the multinational. though the products are not priced at the different steps of the production chain, they are still accounted in the general accounting of the company.
The problem is that what their determined value is cannot be as accurate as that in a market system. Centralized planning has never been able to flex itself to changes in demand, supply, labor, etc.

Quote:
It is a non existent problem.
Hardly.

Quote:
the other point about von Misses is that he was criticising bureaucratic planning assuming this was the ONLY type of central planning possible, and even though it was from the 20'S, it more acuratley fits in with Stalinist beuracracy - in which case it is not a socialised economy anyway.
A command economy has always been inferior to the free market from an efficiency standpoint. The argument has been that some inefficiency can be tolerated so as to improve the status of the workers, although I maintain otherwise.

If you want to argue guild socialism rather than state socialism, go ahead. I'll just come out with different arguments.
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Old Oct 29th, 2003, 06:17 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
Here's an example of why what you call your socio economic system is a lot less meaningful than how it actually functions work;

A highly placed government offical, lets call him Chick Dainey, favors privitization of work usually done by the militray.

He then retires and becomes the CEO of a large corporation, lets call it Ballihurton, to which he has already stered lucrative contracts.

He then retires as CEO, returns to government and continues funnelling work to his old company in which he still owns large quantities of stock and from which he still recieves 'deffered compensation' the government awards his old company even more contracts, this time without bidding them out and offering them a 'cost plus' deal which gaurantees profit and offers a profit based incentive to overcharge, something his company has done to the government before.

There is no competition, the price is not set, profits are gauranteed, incentive is given to increase prices and privitization has occured only in that a handful of people control the governments conract award system and the same people profit from the 'private' sector companies getting the no bid contracts.

Is Ballihurton a part of the government? Is the Government a subsidiary of all Balllihurton? Is Chick Dainey a civil servant, a Ceo, an Employee or just a revolting, power mad war profiteer?
So you are critiquing bureacracy, and advocating more of it? Doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
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