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Anonymous Anonymous is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:01 PM        question about "saving" children
Is it possible for children who grow up in a violent household to become 'normal' well-adjusted adults? If it is possible, is it really such a big deal for them to be in that situation? Should people really do everything they can to get them out of a house like that.. to be put somewhere possibly worse? To them, that life is routine, and if they can later in life be a decent person, maybe they should just be left where they are. If what you are is soley based on what you make of yourself... then abuse or even severe neglect doesn't have to cause a bad outcome.. except if someone dies.

Or can they never be normal? And of they can't, does saving them from that house help them anyway? Is it all really about preventing death or a permanent physical injury
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Immortal Goat Immortal Goat is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 03:59 PM        Re: question about "saving" children
It is certainly POSSIBLE for them to be normal, but not very PROBABLE. THAT is why we need to get them out of those situations. That and the fact that nobody deserves that treatment unless they are already violent.
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 04:02 PM       
kind of depends how/when they were abused. Young children can turn into sociopaths. Teenagers can turn into rape counselors, or lawyers who convict like fuck. Or have some kind of drive to remove some evil that happened to them. Kind of depends on how you look at it.
Or the kid might just kill his/her parents, which would effectively remove some useless trash from the planet.
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Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 04:04 PM        Saving
I think it totally depends on the person.

I don't know if you read some of my previous posts about my particular situation in this forum. Or about survival vs choosing to get past something. I can find them if you like. :P

In the case of my family, all three of us turned out different.
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 04:11 PM       
I'm not so much concerned with how well adjusted and purposeful these kids become as to whether or not they're happy. As long as they're growing up in the situation they're the most happy with, and this situation harbors no threat to their physical or mental health, I think that's the best situation to go with.
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 04:41 PM       
I don't think any kid in that situation is "happy".
anyway, I guess to simplify.. If someone knows some children that are getting beat up, should they bother calling social services. Is that really going to help anything? Should the kids be taken out of the house? Does that really help
Or even say, someone knows some children who are not being 'taken care' of in any shape or form. Same question.

Is there really anything to do, or is it basically "oh well, that's a shame. Hopefully they won't accidentally die"
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 05:19 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doopa
I don't think any kid in that situation is "happy".
anyway, I guess to simplify.. If someone knows some children that are getting beat up, should they bother calling social services. Is that really going to help anything? Should the kids be taken out of the house? Does that really help
Or even say, someone knows some children who are not being 'taken care' of in any shape or form. Same question.

Is there really anything to do, or is it basically "oh well, that's a shame. Hopefully they won't accidentally die"
The state of happiness has no prerequisite other than your own willing mind. In a saner world, you would not have to ask that question. If your neighbor was beating his kids, you'd have to race the rest of the neighborhood to his house to confront him on it.

Unfortunately, we live in a world increasingly ruled by gigantic, centralized governments that fervently usurp your various responsibilities to do the various uncomfortable things Life requires. This produces an entirely unrealistic expectation that somehow the government should swoop in from DC to knock on your neighbor's door for you.

If you see something wrong, and you are in possession of a solution, you should never hesitate to provide it. That's called doing your part to make the world a better place.

Anyone that abuses or neglects children in their care voluntarily forgoes their right to privacy, IMO.

If yours was more a question of a general nature, then you should be able to catch my drift. If your asking for advice on a specific situation, then I say intervene. It's both your duty and your right.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:04 PM       
Quote:
If you see something wrong, and you are in possession of a solution
I am asking if there is a 'solution'. A real solution
(of course if a parent sees the light and changes their ways that is a solution, but that's not what I am talking about)
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:11 PM       
You want some kind of miracle solution? if there was one, there wouldn't be very many abused children.
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:13 PM       
i guess for example

VIBE- I've seen you mention things about your mother, and then seen you say fond things about living with your grandmother. My question is - regarding living with your mother... did social services/police whoever intervine and take you and your siblings out of the house and away from her. If they didn't, do you think you would have wanted them to? And if that meant being placed in the care of a foster home would you still have wanted them to (if you didn't have your grandmother to go to)?

edit:
Quote:
You want some kind of miracle solution?
not a miracle. Just a solution - by that I guess I mean something that is somehow "better", if you know what I'm saying? Or maybe there just isn't one
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:22 PM       
there's child services... and, maybe you could talk to the parents, but I don't think you want to do that. You could always talk to a Cop or something and ask them to just *talk*(warning shit, if it can be done) with them. Then if that doesn't work, you can roll with the child services.
Or a small domestic Violence charge might straighten him out
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:25 PM       
I thought of another question

vibe- if you found out about some kid that right now, had a mother doing the things your mother did - and you can't "fix" this person's mother - would you call social services/ the police and have the kid be taken away and placed in foster home, or would you think "man that is really horrible, but I made it and so hopefully they will too) and not report her
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:30 PM       
My advice must suck. lol.
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:35 PM       
Will there always be child abuse and neglect? Yes, probably. Will it ever become so rare as to be considered an anomaly rather than endemic? Hopefully. How? You have to consider why it happens at all...

Before I start rambling on and on about the general problem of child abuse and neglect, I'm gonna answer your question as if you were asking for a specific solution to a specific situation. As I said, a person that abuses a child relinquishes their right to privacy, at least in that matter. Protection of children is a public concern, and the abuser has obviously made his abuse public if you've heard of it or witnessed it. The most efficient public mechanism for dealing with an issue is addressing it directly.

Confront the abuser. They are either guilty or innocent, and in either case cannot realistically blame you. The life and well-being of the child is prioritized higher than that of the child's guardian, so no insult is implied. By intervening, even in error, you are helping. If your help is taken as an insult, take that as a clue that the guardian's priorities are fucked anyway, and that you are probably right.

There is no need to beat around the bush on the matter, and no need to sugar-coat your words. Ask a few well worded and direct questions, and know all possible answers beforehand.

Child abuse is only ever misplacement of frustration. While it is not really your intention, I assume, to "solve" the problem, to do so means finding a more appropriate way to engage the frustration. The problem lives in the abuser, not its victim.

You will probably be stop at confirming your suspicions. I doubt your intention is hands on treatment, and you are probably not qualified. Find a local counselor that is familiar with intervention, and take their number with you to confront the abuser. Depending on your commitment to ending the abuse, you can either simply strongly suggest they call, or give them a one week deadline before you call the counselor yourself.

You can work out the details of that with the counselor you find. Try to use a charitable private therapist, as government employees tend to be a bit Draconian in their methods.

If your question, again, was more general in nature, I guess educating the public to react to perceived abuse in this manner, rather than waiting on Social Services to magically appear one day, would be a good start toward eradicating abuse and neglect.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:36 PM       
did you get that from a book?
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:45 PM       
...and in answer to your follow up question: Yes, people can change. They tend not to, but it is possible. No one can answer a blanket question like: "Is it always better to..."

Your objective is to stop the abuse. If the abuser wishes to change, that is entirely up to him or her. The future of the child is not yours to decide, but the decision to protect the child from present danger is.

No matter what a child endures, recovery is totally possible. Contrarily, it is also possible for a good childhood to produce a screwed up adult.

As I said, happiness has no prerequisites other than a willing mind.

The future of the child is not as much of a concern as the present.

Intervene.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 06:46 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
did you get that from a book?
Not yet.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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punkgrrrlie10 punkgrrrlie10 is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:16 PM       
I don't know. I was in a big time abusive home and I'm normal (in a non-criminal/non-sociopath kind of way). But I also had a lot of good influences at school outside the home. It became my escape. Being witness to alot of domestic abuse cases people are so SO very different in their perceptions and how they handle it. It just depends on the personality. And I guess I wouldn't want to interfere unless it was really bad abuse. Kids don't understand. The adult who is being beaten is usually codependant and won't leave, will just be mad at you for interfering. If there is more than one kid, they might get split up and put into crappy foster care systems where they are educated by other children in whatever F'd up ways they were F'd up. It's such a hard call. If it were sexual abuse, I would say definitely. Physical, depends on the extent: are they breaking arms, burning them with irons, etc. I would say the better thing to do is to befriend the children and let them see a world outside the one there in. It gives hope that they won't be in the F'd up situation forever. That's what did it for me.
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Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:37 PM        Abuse
Quote:
vibe- if you found out about some kid that right now, had a mother doing the things your mother did - and you can't "fix" this person's mother - would you call social services/ the police and have the kid be taken away and placed in foster home, or would you think "man that is really horrible, but I made it and so hopefully they will too) and not report her
I stopped reading the thread at this point. Trying to formulate a response.

I know I would NEVER think "man that is really horrible, but I made it and so hopefully they will too". I wouldn't wish what I went through on my worst enemy. It goes way beyond "normal" abuse. As if any abuse can be considered normal......

If they were going through what I went through, I would call social services.
I know I am an anomally. I can't expect anyone else to respond the way I did. Or end up the way I did.
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:43 PM       
I am not asking for advice

now that's out of the way...

punkgrl - yeah that's basically what I am saying (or asking?) I don't know that taking a kid out of an abusive home is really saving them. Unless their life is threatened... but then again, that can be difficult to judge too. I mean, a parent might not mean to kill a kid, but they might end up being too violent and sort of unintentionally killing them. Or neglecting them so severely, that some accident or disease kills the kid.

By 'normal' I didn't mean to imply that abused kids turn into criminal sociopaths or whatever. I meant more like that they take horrible abuse from people the rest of their lives. Or possibly treat their kids similiar. Or other screwed up things.. you know, just overall mentally not well.
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 08:47 PM       
vibe - thanks for the response
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Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:26 PM        Abuse
Sorry Doopa - I some how totally missed this.......

Quote:
VIBE- I've seen you mention things about your mother, and then seen you say fond things about living with your grandmother. My question is - regarding living with your mother... did social services/police whoever intervine and take you and your siblings out of the house and away from her. If they didn't, do you think you would have wanted them to? And if that meant being placed in the care of a foster home would you still have wanted them to (if you didn't have your grandmother to go to)?
Actually, it is stranger than that. The whole family always lived with my grandmother. When social services got involved it was mom who was supposed to leave. SHe did, but nana always let her come home to sober up. Social service was lied too.
When mom was home the abuse happened, but those times got to be fewer and fewer as time went on.
I don't hink my nana every really knew the depth of what I was going through. I never told her. I never told any of my family. I just took it to keep it from happening to them.


I have nothing to compare it too, but I think if it hadn't been for my nana I would have wanted out. Even being homeless would have been prefferable to life with my mom.
I ran away once. But I came home when I thought my mother and her boyfriend at the time might turn on either my grandmother or my little sisters. I just thought it was better to have it happen to me. I was used to it.
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Vibecrewangel Vibecrewangel is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 10:49 PM        Abuse
Finally got through the whole thread......

First, the "normal" statement was mine, not yours Doopa. I just felt funny saying normal abuse. But considering what I went through. Being smacked around would have been normal.

The answer is yes you should intervene. Simply because no one deserves to be abused. Especially children.

IG mentioned that it is possible for a child to grow up normal, but it is not probable. I believe this to be true. I know people who never got over the one spanking they got while others wear their scars like a badge of honor. Everyone is different. You can't possibly guess how someone will turn out once they have been abused.

If it hadn't been for my nana. I think that all three of us girls would have been better off in foster care.


I should probably mention, out of some respect for my mother that no one turned her in to social services. She had herself declared unfit. Much like her drinking, she knew there was a problem, she just couldn't fix it.
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:14 PM       
I never seem to hear anything good about foster care for some reason, which I guess is why I can't see how that is some sort of better alternative. Maybe that is a false misconception on my part though.

I remember you said something in another thread about parents getting kids taken away for spanking (and no I am not comparing a spanking to getting beaten), but how much physical abuse should = getting put in foster care.


I think that is pretty amazing your mother declared herself unfit
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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
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Old Jul 2nd, 2003, 11:20 PM       
Sometimes foster care, "isn't good" because the kids are already kind of fucked up when they get there, so they just manage to make things worse in wonderful ways.
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