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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Dec 28th, 2005, 05:22 PM        Here we go.
With Kant, a radical change developed in philosophy - instead of experience shaping concepts, concepts began to shape experience. To counteract Humean skepticism, he claimed that ideas like causuality and the self are necessary for experience to even begin.

Kant was wrong.

First, it is obvious that such conceptions are not necessary for experience if the individual can deny them and yet experience none-the-less. I no more have to infer or assume causuality to experience than I have to infer the existence of God. The proof is simple: I do not infer causuality and yet I experience. The same is true with the self: I can avoid identifying the self but the bundle of perceptions yet remain.

It is true that, perhaps, we are born with certain preconceptions, such as I, causuality, or logic. It might also be true that these preconceptions could have been picked up in our unconscious developing stages. How these preconceptions developed is not of concern; what matters is that they are merely preconceptions. They are by no means justified simply in being assumed. In so far as these assumptions are unwarranted, they must be disestablished in order to find truth.

And so lies the crux of my philosophy.

I begin by removing all assumptions, though I retain knowledge of language in order to communicate any meaning. Note that all words ultimately base their meaning on a concept which cannot be further explained by reference to the language - in essense, an abstraction.

It is undeniable that there are phenomenon. Perceptions are by the very meaning of what constitutes existence. Perceptions are abundant; they are in constant flux; yet throughout perceptions, various degrees of consistency exist through their flow. This flow, if you will, is time - it is the abstract concept inferred into perception to explain their continuity; and from consistency evolves the conception of the self. The self are those groups of perception which appear to have a common element of control: I act, I think, I move, and so on and so forth. Here control, as it is taken, is direct and absolute instead of circumstantial. It is not that an outside agent is controlling, but rather that the control is inherent (note: if my meaning here needs further explaination, I can address it later).

In my observation, I note that the more an event occurs in the past, the more it is likely to occur again. This principle is formalized as induction. Induction requires no proof; it cannot be proven. Rather, it is simply a tool construed which corresponds well to reality.

But what is meant by reality?

The only reality I can know is that of my perception. Whether a substance outside or beyond my perception underlies it, be it mind or matter, is unknowable. The various ways of explaining an objective, underlying reality are endless, but there is no reason that perceptions could not simply exist on their own. Thus, I must adopt two positions - existental phenomenalism and metaphysical agnosticism. Existential phenomenalism is the doctrine that the only knowable reality is that of the perceived. Metaphysical agnosticism implies that the fundamental nature of reality cannot be determined.

Edit - Part 2:

As noted before, perceptions occur through time. There are antecedent and subsequent phenomenon through this flow. On some occasions, the correlation of a subsequent event to an antecedent occurance is vast - i kick the ball; the ball moves forward. Here can be inferred causuality, for if causuality is to have any meaning, it can only imply a vast, consistent correlation between given antecedent and subsequent phenomenon. No other meaning is warranted or justifiable.

Yet what of the concept of the ball? Is not the ball merely a collection of phenomenon itself? That of color, of shape, of sound? Cannot it be reduced further?

Yes. However, the ball displays consistent characteristics throughout time. Though it may change position, appearance, or even color in varying circumstances, the consistency is great enough to make inferring a whole useful; and the same is true with all other abstract collections of phenomenon capable of being reduced. The inferrance is a matter of practicality, much like the identification of the self.

And so I infer human beings.

Other humans display many characteristics similar to my own. The correlation of phenomenon amongst them, as well as between them and myself, is very high. Their actions appear indicative of thought and perception when put in reference to my own. Ergo, I infer that other human beings are capable of perceiving and thinking. I cannot know that they are such, but it is reasonable to make that assumption.
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Old Dec 28th, 2005, 07:39 PM       
1. DEFINE YOUR FUCKING TERMS.

2. Nothing is undeniable. That is one of the most retarded things a true philosopher or generally inteligent person can say when making a serious argument.

3. Everything that follows your begining is just you ranting about old middle school/The matrix pseudo-philosophical ideas the pot heads talk about when they're feeling a little frisky.

I hate philosophy people.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 01:21 AM       
Funny, I picked up an A.J. Ayer text just yesterday.

I agree with Bubba that you need to elaborate more fully on what you mean by terms like 'perception'. Do you mean to say that 'sense-data' are the only knowable reality?

Also, what is the nature of the association between perceptions and reality? It's unclear if you mean that reality is unknowable but still exists (kind of like believing in a god), or if you mean that we cannot know if reality exists. If you ascribe to the former, then aren't you accepting a form of realism?

And how do you distinguish between 'real' perceptions, and illusions, hallucinations and other 'unreal' perceptions?
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 01:45 AM       
That's your big essay? I'm disappointed.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 05:19 AM       
More To Come L8ER
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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 11:39 AM        Re: Here we go.


With Kant, a radical change developed in philosophy - instead of experience shaping concepts, concepts began to shape experience. To counteract Humean skepticism, he claimed that ideas like causuality and the self are necessary for experience to even begin.



Kant was wrong.



First, it is obvious that such conceptions are not necessary for experience if the individual can deny them and yet experience none-the-less. I no more have to infer or assume causuality to experience than I have to infer the existence of God. The proof is simple: I do not infer causuality and yet I experience. The same is true with the self: I can avoid identifying the self but the bundle of perceptions yet remain.



It is true that, perhaps, we are born with certain preconceptions, such as I, causuality, or logic. It might also be true that these preconceptions could have been picked up in our unconscious developing stages. How these preconceptions developed is not of concern; what matters is that they are merely preconceptions. They are by no means justified simply in being assumed. In so far as these assumptions are unwarranted, they must be disestablished in order to find truth.



And so lies the crux of my philosophy.



I begin by removing all assumptions, though I retain knowledge of language in order to communicate any meaning. Note that all words ultimately base their meaning on a concept which cannot be further explained by reference to the language - in essense, an abstraction.



It is undeniable that there are phenomenon. Perceptions are by the very meaning of what constitutes existence. Perceptions are abundant; they are in constant flux; yet throughout perceptions, various degrees of consistency exist through their flow. This flow, if you will, is time - it is the abstract concept inferred into perception to explain their continuity; and from consistency evolves the conception of the self. The self are those groups of perception which appear to have a common element of control: I act, I think, I move, and so on and so forth. Here control, as it is taken, is direct and absolute instead of circumstantial. It is not that an outside agent is controlling, but rather that the control is inherent (note: if my meaning here needs further explaination, I can address it later).



In my observation, I note that the more an event occurs in the past, the more it is likely to occur again. This principle is formalized as induction. Induction requires no proof; it cannot be proven. Rather, it is simply a tool construed which corresponds well to reality.



But what is meant by reality?



The only reality I can know is that of my perception. Whether a substance outside or beyond my perception underlies it, be it mind or matter, is unknowable. The various ways of explaining an objective, underlying reality are endless, but there is no reason that perceptions could not simply exist on their own. Thus, I must adopt two positions - existental phenomenalism and metaphysical agnosticism. Existential phenomenalism is the doctrine that the only knowable reality is that of the perceived. Metaphysical agnosticism implies that the fundamental nature of reality cannot be determined.



More to come later.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 11:40 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by theapportioner
I agree with Bubba that you need to elaborate more fully on what you mean by terms like 'perception'. Do you mean to say that 'sense-data' are the only knowable reality?
Sort of. Perception is taken here in a strict sense - what I see, hear, smell, etc. But I also perceive thoughts as well. Perception, as used so far, is the collection of phenomenon known to myself.

I tend to frequently use words in ways like this as well:
Perception - The totality of my perceptions.
Perceptions - Phenomenon.
Phenomenal reality - The environment where all my perceptions interact (might need to make this one more rigorous as I continue, but we'll see)

Quote:
Also, what is the nature of the association between perceptions and reality? It's unclear if you mean that reality is unknowable but still exists (kind of like believing in a god), or if you mean that we cannot know if reality exists. If you ascribe to the former, then aren't you accepting a form of realism?
I cannot know if reality exists beyond my perceptions. Perceptions exist and are real, even if they are only real as perceptions. Whether a greater, underlying reality exists as well cannot be known. Neither of your assertions are correct; the reality of the phenomenal is knowable, but any reality outside perception is unknowable.

My starting point for my philosophy is myself. I haven't gotten to addressing other human beings yet in this thread.

Quote:
And how do you distinguish between 'real' perceptions, and illusions, hallucinations and other 'unreal' perceptions?
Illusions and hallucinations still exist as perceptions - they are merely inconsistent with the phenomenon that normally are experienced. Hence why we can distinguish them from other perceptions.

Chimpy - I'm not even close to being done yet.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 11:58 AM       
Can't you be? Would money help? Or some oil for you muscles so they gleam more attractively? Or a new head for the photos on account of the way your head spoils the whole effect?

Why can't you be more Zen? You know, eat when your hungry, sleep when your tired, if you've finished your rice clean the bowl, if your full of hot gas, belch once and be done with it?

Can anyone tell me why I like the Apportioner and OAO fills me with rage?
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 12:12 PM       
cause the apportioner is pretty
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 02:08 PM       
Hey Chojin.



I fuckin rule you.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 02:19 PM       
Hey OAO.



What are you doing on Saturday?
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 02:28 PM       
"I fuckin rule you."

Not with that head you don't. It's the head of a greasy, annoying little prick and no amount of buffing up does anything but make you look like you're overcompensating. Have you seen recent pictures of Carrot Top? same deal. Your head cannot be impoved by inflating your body, and the head negates anything the body does.

Personality sculpts the face over time. Your only hope is deep, serious change and years. Your still young. You don't have to let those doofy, irritating features settle into your adult head. There's still time, but I implore you to either chnage who yu are as radically as possible or lay off the body building. The combo platter is nauseating.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 06:01 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin
What are you doing on Saturday?
I'm hanging out with my emo girlfriend.

But derailing of the thread. I did post this with a serious intent, and I am coming back to it reasonably soon.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 06:15 PM       
Yeah, but isn't your serious intent just a long winded version of the old proverb, "If a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 06:28 PM       
Seriously. This thread is about how your head and body don't match, and pumping up isn't doing any of the things you want it to do, it's just making you even more ridiculous. You NEED to do something about this problem before you become completely absurd. And what the hell is 'emo'?
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 06:59 PM       
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Yeah, but isn't your serious intent just a long winded version of the old proverb, "If a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
No, because it answers the question. Also, there are other aspects I delve into, such as politics/societal structure, morality, etc, etc. It just depends on how far I really want to take this.

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And what the hell is 'emo'?
What I would be if I lacked my astounding self-confidence and continued to smoke cloves.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 07:02 PM       
OAO, you need to do something about your legs. Your thighs are like marshmallows and your calves are like toothpicks sticking out of them.

Seriously, dude. This is way more important than Kant. Take some time off this evening and do some major revisions to your lifting routine.

Oh, and you don't know what real self-confidence is. I went through the phase you're in once. That's really insecurity which masks itself as arrogance. Start admitting that you're really not on top of everything, and then maybe one day you will be.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 07:18 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by OAO
No, because it answers the question.
You can't answer the question sillypants, you can explain why it's unanswerable but you can't actually answer it.

Also, so I dont get of topic, has anyone ever told you that you look like a less extravagant version of Napolean Dynamite?
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 07:29 PM       
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You can't answer the question sillypants, you can explain why it's unanswerable but you can't actually answer it.
I don't entirely answer it. For all practical purposes, though, I do.
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 08:05 PM       
Well, I don't really see the point of perceptions if they are the only knowable reality.

Quote:
Illusions and hallucinations still exist as perceptions - they are merely inconsistent with the phenomenon that normally are experienced.
You're going to have to clarify this. To distinguish between a hallucination and what we would consider a normal perception, you're comparing the two against some sort of outside standard, whether it be consistency (coherence) or correspondence or something else. You're denying the correspondence theory of truth. Are you proposing a coherence theory of truth?
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 08:42 PM       



Hmmm...
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Old Dec 29th, 2005, 11:49 PM       
You can answer any question. Its just a matter of DEFINING TERMS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PEOPLE.

The solution to the tree falling question is easily answered. The only true question in this question is how we define sound. If sound can be defined as any vibration or frequency, in which case the falling of a tree is sufficient to generate noise, the answer is yes. If we define sound to mean the sensation stimulated in the organs of hearing by such vibrations in the air or other medium then the answer is no because no such organs are present. Fuck you people and your pseudo-philosophy. In fact fuck philosophy. Lazy lazy scientist wanabes.
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Old Dec 30th, 2005, 12:16 AM       
two words: Calf. Raises.

Quote:
Perceptions are by the very meaning of what constitutes existence.
Define the verb "to be" as used in this sentence.

Quote:
I begin by removing all assumptions, though I retain knowledge of language in order to communicate any meaning. Note that all words ultimately base their meaning on a concept which cannot be further explained by reference to the language - in essense, an abstraction.
So why not come out and say that abstractions are necessary components of meaning?
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Old Dec 30th, 2005, 04:16 AM       
The solution to the tree problem is simpler than that. You need to go one level higher.

If reality is only a set of perceived phenomena (which is what Mr. Jack is saying, I think), and no one experiences the tree falling, then there is no tree and thus there cannot be any sound. Definitions are unnecessary.
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Old Dec 30th, 2005, 09:57 AM       
A.) "you need to do something about your legs. Your thighs are like marshmallows and your calves are like toothpicks sticking out of them. "

Calves, schmaves. IT'S THE HEAD. OAO has the head of a self important Doofus, and like the chains Jacob Marley wears, it's eaxactly what he's crafted. He needs to make fundemental chnages to who he is as a person if he wants his head to look like it belongs on anything other than a pale, gangly toothpick, or a soft, slug colored mass. Not that I'm saying body builders heads are anything to write home about, body building being the sport of narcissits and obsessive compulsives, but this combo platter (and again, I feel I must refer to Carrot Top version 2.0) is disturbing and nauseating.

B.) The tree problem is a Koan. Koan's are not meant to be 'solved'. They are meant to be contemplated. The poser of the question knew full well that sound can be thought of in two distinct , equally correct in in the case of the Koan, mutually exclussive ways. Hold the paradox in your mind. Try to see both possabilities simultaneously. Empty you mind of all else. It is the exact antithesis of all this noisy, futile, adolescent I-Can-Understand-More-difficult-philosiphers-than-you-can bullshit.

C.) 'Kant is wrong'. Gosh. What a shame you weren;t there to work with him, maybe he'd have made an even more significant contribution to Western society, or perhaps just gotten out of the way for the greatnes which is you. You really seriously think that you fully comprehend Kant and that you not only stand on the playing field but surpass it? You're like some bogus new age seeker/tourist spending a weeken at an ashram spending a half day pretending to contemplate trees falling when really all your thinking about is how uncomfortable it is too sit on a wooden floor for so long and then getting the idea it's a paradox and rushing off to tell the teacher you're enlightened. You are a chicken scratching the surface of things peope have dedicated their entire lives to. Stop crowing like a damn rooster. One of your teachers needs to smack you with a two by four so in that instant of surprise and pain you'll actually know where you are for a little while.
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