To be more than human is to be human

[Guitar Woman]

Ok, but Ghost in the Shell is at least about the integration of technology and the human race, as well as the problems arising from such, which relates to this thread probably slightly more than Han Solo fighting renegade robots.

For clarity's sake I'm not talking about the TV series, which is only slightly worse than watching an abortion being performed.

[Tadao]

[kahljorn]

so has anybody brought up the sirens of titan yet the robots in that are totally transhumaned!

[pac-man]

Never read it but it's on my list.

[kahljorn]

it's an alright book but i thought that part about the robot was awesome ;9

[executioneer]

Tirelessly, I will work to strip away the barriers that keep living beings from realizing their full potential.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype

So are there any transhumanists in the ranks? Not sure what a transhumanist is? EDUCATE YOURSELF

In order to be a transhumanist, one must accept the idea of the technological singularity. Basically, the singularity represents the point in technological advancement where there is nothing that humanity can do that AI cannot do for itself, including self-improvement. It's almost like Skynet. Acheiving this is an important evolutionary step for humanity, though it may seem difficult to understand why. Ultimately, this will change the course, but not the direction, of evolution.

A transhumanist desires above all else to be more than human. Only once we've reached the singularity will we really understand how to pursue this end. We've already begun dabbling in at our relatively primitive stage of advancement, but most of us don't realize it. Artificial organs, retinal implants, our constant connection to AI in one form or another, all of these and more represent a massive paradigm shift towards a posthuman culture. Eventually, we will be able to able to integrate technology and biology to the point where we can transcend the human condition and quite possibly overcome even involuntary death.

Sooooo, what's up, guys? How is your day going?

Transhumanism all sounds rather masturbatory to me, frankly. Besides, evolutionary success is not measured by the complexity of the organism, it is measured by the ability of the organism to surivive and reproduce, or at least that was my understanding of it. Furthermore, what are the parameters that define "human" in the first place that must be overcome?

[kahljorn]

jeanette x i think the point of this thread is that science fiction and technologu and nanotechnologu and also quantum mechanics.

the internet

that's the point ok

[pac-man]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXpbrGBIGxw

Now that's transhumanism!

[Pub Lover]

I've had that song in my head all day because of this thread.

[Jeanette X]

Aww. I seriously wanted to debate transhumanism. Dammit.

[Pub Lover]

Then your first statement that it was just wanking was a pretty stupid move.

Even if you do hold jacking off in high esteem.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by Pub Lover

Then your first statement that it was just wanking was a pretty stupid move.

Well why doesn't anyone come charging in to prove my deliberately outrageous statement wrong?!

[kahljorn]

ok here's an example for example did evolution for example plan to create human beings who build buildings and have complex social situations and internet message boards?

if so, isn't it also possible it also had in mind lol us becoming some kind of ROBOT SUPERMEN?

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

ok here's an example for example did evolution for example plan to create human beings who build buildings and have complex social situations and internet message boards?

if so, isn't it also possible it also had in mind lol us becoming some kind of ROBOT SUPERMEN?

Your question operates on the presupposition that evolution is "planning" something, like a conscious entity, which it does not. Evolution is shaped by outside environmental forces, which are rather unpredictable.

[Sethomas]

Originally Posted by Jeanette X

evolutionary success is not measured by the complexity of the organism, it is measured by the ability of the organism to surivive and reproduce, or at least that was my understanding of it.

The problem with this statement, while 100% correct in certain vantages, is that it seems to set a universal standard of "evolutionary success" that is incoherent with the idea of passing such a judgment that evolution "succeeds". That is, evolution itself has no reason to CARE whether or not it is successful because as a mere statistical model that describes the process of speciation it really doesn't bear any emotional or rational judgment. If evolution guides a species one direction to benefit a generation, only humans would say "evolution has succeeded." Likewise, when the same adaptation encounters an evolutionary bottleneck where it actually sees to the demise of all those who have it, evolution doesn't have a voice to say, "oh shit, I failed".

Hence, in this context "evolutionary success" a purely anthropocentric judgment as it ever shall be, but in relation to an anthropentric motion then axiomatically it reduces to "whatever we think is a good thing".

Thus, your question of what it is about being human (as we now know it) that sucks so fantastically becomes more relevant than the goal of excluding ourselves from a definition that would recognize it.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by Sethomas

The problem with this statement, while 100% correct in certain vantages, is that it seems to set a universal standard of "evolutionary success" that is incoherent with the idea of passing such a judgment that evolution "succeeds". That is, evolution itself has no reason to CARE whether or not it is successful because as a mere statistical model that describes the process of speciation it really doesn't bear any emotional or rational judgment. If evolution guides a species one direction to benefit a generation, only humans would say "evolution has succeeded." Likewise, when the same adaptation encounters an evolutionary bottleneck where it actually sees to the demise of all those who have it, evolution doesn't have a voice to say, "oh shit, I failed".

Hence, in this context "evolutionary success" a purely anthropocentric judgment as it ever shall be, but in relation to an anthropentric motion then axiomatically it reduces to "whatever we think is a good thing".

So? Transhumanism is anthropocentric, why should it matter if "evolutionary success" is an anthropoocentric judgement? This just seems like a needless disgression.

Thus, your question of what it is about being human (as we now know it) that sucks so fantastically becomes more relevant than the goal of excluding ourselves from a definition that would recognize it.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you agreeing with me that the definition of what is human to begin must be established before transhumanism can be strived for? I'm so fucking tired right now I can barely think, this had better make more sense tommorow morning.

[kahljorn]

yea, that was kind of the response i was expecting you to have and my response is that you then assume evolution is the all encompassing factor in life -- and evolution as is understood by only some people.

and furthermore, disregarding the idea of "planning," there's always the idea of not planning and it just happening ; did evolution really ever plan anything? no but it happened obviously they can exist along side each other, assuming we transhumaned... Also, the change from biological to mechanical or some mixture would certainly mark some CHANGE which, from further scientists minds living in the wake of such events, if evolution were still believed in, would have to mark some evolutionary event and certainly an evolutionary POSSIBILITY.

finally, the idea of evolution being influenced by "outside forces" encompasses this since technology is kinda outside us but can be placed inside us! whether "planned" or merely demanded by the possibilities of the world or whatever...

my example still stands you just attacked my word usage.

Besides, evolutionary success is not measured by the complexity of the organism, it is measured by the ability of the organism to surivive and reproduce, or at least that was my understanding of it. Furthermore, what are the parameters that define "human" in the first place that must be overcome?

How can you measure things like successes if there's no plan to be sucessful based on? iin this case, survival would be increased manifoldly, more than likely, by the switch to mechanical life. indeed, life could perhaps be extended indefinitley!

The parameters in this case would obviously be mostly biological, and over-coming biological limitations -- through technologu.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

How can you measure things like successes if there's no plan to be sucessful based on? iin this case, survival would be increased manifoldly, more than likely, by the switch to mechanical life. indeed, life could perhaps be extended indefinitley!

The parameters in this case would obviously be mostly biological, and over-coming biological limitations -- through technologu.

Yeah, but are we really psychologically equipped to live forever?

[kahljorn]

I don't know but couldn't technology potentially equip us with something like that? Also immortality isn't really central to anything I'm saying and I don't appreciate you coping out! the point is that technology could certainly allow us to "survive" better, thus fitting into whatever evolutionary perspective you have.

People could still choose to end their lives rationally, if immortality became such a hell.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Also immortality isn't really central to anything I'm saying and I don't appreciate you coping out!.

I wasn't copping out, you're the one who brought it up. Besides, clinical immortality seems like it would cause society to stagnate. If there are immortals, then there are by neccessity fewer children because of the resources they take up, and therefore very few new modes of thinking.

the point is that technology could certainly allow us to "survive" better, thus fitting into whatever evolutionary perspective you have.

It already does that. What difference does it make if it is incorperated into the body or not? Why does having it in your body somehow cause you to transcend your own humanity?

[Pub Lover]

Have you started to seriously debate like you said you wanted, or are you still making deliberately outrageous stupid statements?

Because I can't tell.

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by Pub Lover

Have you started to seriously debate like you said you wanted, or are you still making deliberately outrageous stupid statements?

Because I can't tell.

[kahljorn]

possibly, but like I said, people can still choose to die rationally, and it's possible that technologu could eradicate the resources problem. Wouldn't part of the point of replacing many organs and becoming near immortal or whatever (which I only used as an example to over-coming a limitation generally thought of as human) be that it takes less resources?

or like rebirth or something i dunno there's ideas! (which is i take it the point of ghost in the shell)

What difference does it make if it is incorperated into the body or not? Why does having it in your body somehow cause you to transcend your own humanity?

cause human beings are biological and have brains. converting to mechanical is obviously way different than normal human beings.

i get what you're getting at with the whole WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO B E HUMAN thing but i think there's already set perimeters so ;o

[Dixie]

The atom germ wars gone precipitate genetic mutation
social degeneration
creatures born of malignant science
the children of technology
plutonium anthropology
who will cleanse the mess left by the past
who will expurgate the scared cytoplasm
to rid the earth of abomination I proclaim my nomination
as the thermonuclear warrior
Strands of malformed DNA strangulate our future
chromosomal executioners

I seek the dying, sick and deformed
all who would taint the species
stabbing and choking and burning
and drowning exterminate subhuman feces
to every problem an answer must lie
to this I have a solution

Crush kill destroy
I will smash any resistance
crush kill destroy
the reason for my divine existence

You may ask what's right have I
to take human life this way
well I'm in control I make the rules
and I don't need your o.k.
genocide is my way of life
it's a fact I will not hide
the millions I've killed to sterilize
euthanasia's not homicide

Crush kill destroy
I will not tolerate imperfection
crush kill destroy
I will impede the spread of infection
I was born my own master
-Carnivore