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  #26  
El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Feb 10th, 2003, 12:11 PM       
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Originally Posted by Malevolent
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Not something that violates another Ammendment or restricts the people and not the government. You don't use the Constitution to govern corporations. It wasn't made for that.
Didn't the 21st Amendment violate the 18th Amendment by repealing it? Who are you to decide what the Constitution was or was not made for?
Actually, the 18th should have never existed. That was a restriction on the people. Again, this is not what the Constitution is for. Every other part dictates how the government functions. the 21 repeaeled an ammendment that violated the entire idea of the Constitution.
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Old Feb 10th, 2003, 12:33 PM       
Im with Carni, Corporations have corrupted our democracy.
John McCain aint no anti-corruption champion.

a few amendments COULD fix our country. But its not likely.

What we need is a particapatory democracy.

I'm also going to side with Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Micheal Perenti and many others that agree that we've been running on autopilot too long. The people HAVE stepped back and let things get out of hand.. Grassroots movements are my only hope.

we only have a little time left before fascism takes over this country.
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  #28  
sspadowsky sspadowsky is offline
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Old Feb 10th, 2003, 01:05 PM       
It's hard not to lose faith in what this country could be. I've been teetering back and forth between deep concern and total apathy for this country.

Part of me believes this country was bought and paid for by the corporations a long time ago. Part of me believes that this fuckin' whiny, self-absorbed consumer culture of ours has spread like cancer, and we're beyond hope of ever looking away from our big-screens long enough to realize how close this country is to being completely fucked. I wonder if too many people have the mentality of "I'm living comfortably, ergo, everyone is living comfortably. Everything is okey-dokey. I'm gonna go play the back nine at the country club now. Gee, our president's doing a swell job."

The other part of me sees things like a lot of the folks who post here, sees the Daily Show and the Onion and other sources of satire, and it they all make me think, "Hey, maybe the American public hasn't been completely brainwashed into thinking that a Fox 'news' poll that surveyed 500 people is representative of the entire country. Maybe there is hope. Possibly, just MAYBE, the whole of the American populace is not eagerly gobbling up the plates of bullshit served to them by the mainstream news outlets." I'm trying really hard to hold on to that.

Now, Ror, I want to address your question. I think the problem is what happens to people once they get a taste of power. Our elected officials were once plain old Americans. They were brought up in American communities, churches, schools, etc. It's not like people instantly become malicious or irresponsible once they decide to run for public office. As they rise through the ranks, people and corporations throw money at them to cater to their interests. And who doesn't like free money?

My contention is that the truly good-hearted, concerned people who want to run for office and do some positive things for this country A) Get bought, B) Get laughed out of the race by the Dems and Republicans, or C) Get killed.

GodDAMN, it's tough o hold out hope.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Feb 10th, 2003, 02:21 PM        Hmmm
Well, I'm not so sure about this "vision". Wouldn't you say that one of the key reasons our elected officials have become less responsible would be the lack of a civic responsibility in America? In other words, if our politicians are corrupt and immoral, isn't it more a reflection of a broad national problem as opposed to merely a governmental problem...?

Thats pretty much exactly what I am trying to say, though perhaps I was too vague in doing so. I find myself looking at the system itself, as it is outlined, and finding it resplendent with neither mar nor imperfection, save that it is too weak to protect itself from abuse by those whom are supposed to be guarding it. A line of thinking which is. . .Distressing to say the least.

On the note of immorality: Our leaders have ALWAYS been immoral, they've always cheated on their wives, hadchildren out of wedlock, have been alcoholics, Jefferson was TERRIBLE with his personal finances, etc. etc.

The moral lapses of past presidents do exist, but for the majority, they were deviances from the norm for otherwise virtuous individuals. Taft and Grant ran under campaigns riddled with corruption, using their time in office to improve their own lives rather than the condition of their country but they were the exceptions, not the rule. In regards to Jefferson, perhaps I am merely keeping my head in the sand, but I disregard many of the 'revisionist' findings which have suddenly come to light. The Declaration of Independance disappeared for some forty years after it was written before resurfacing, and only a few weeks ago was the personal finance log of Congress found during renovations. . .With our nations history as badly scattered as it is, I place little trust in that which seems overly extraordinary.

Like I have said, government corruption, as well as immorality, has ALWAYS been an issue. So perhaps the important question may be does this system cultivate and ENCOURAGE such immorality and corruption....?

That really is the question. I believe I referred to this in a past E-Mail, but the Federalist Papers were written under the assumption than man is inherently amoral. Many of Publius' arguments seem to rest on the foundation of a darkened and untrustworthy world. For him, nothing could be more obvious than that “men are ambitious, vindictive, and rapacious.” Since Publius' work is the dominate interpretation of the Consitutition I believe we can safely say that the system was designed neither to cultivate nor encourage corruption and immorality, but to guard against by making assurances that any liberties taken above and beyond one's prescribed power would infringe upon anothers thus creating such contention noone could help but act within their limitations.

GodDAMN, it's tough to hold out hope.

I agreed with much of what you said, but nothing struck a chord quite so well as you're conclusive statement.
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