John Kerry gets a response from Vietnam vets.

[Ronnie Raygun]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113632,00.html

Vets Slam Kerry for Vietnam Atrocity Claims

Tuesday, March 09, 2004

WASHINGTON — John Kerry lived two Vietnam experiences -- one as a decorated Navy lieutenant, the other as a staunch protester of the war.

Returning from his tour of duty, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee (search) in 1971, in which he claimed it was U.S. policy in Vietnam to carry out atrocities and war crimes.

A number of Vietnam veterans consider this testimony slanderous and say Kerry had to know it was false. They accuse Kerry of lying about fellow soldiers and officers to push a political agenda, and say his words dishonored comrades in arms at a time of war.

"He knew as an officer that those were lies. It never happened," said Vietnam veteran Carlton Sherwood. "He was principally responsible for cementing the image of Vietnam veterans (search) as drugged-out psychopaths who were totally unrestrained and who were a murderous hoard."

After Kerry's testimony, military and independent investigations found that many of the soldiers who told Kerry and others they committed such atrocities were either never in the service, never in Vietnam or couldn't provide more evidence of those horrific actions.

Kerry told Fox News this weekend that he has no regrets about his service or his protest.

"Now, if some veterans still can't accept that or they don't like the fact that I stood up and spoke my mind, I respect them, that is their choice," Kerry said.

[Bobo Adobo]

Pointless War that should have never happened, but did happen 30 years ago. How does it have any impact on a 2004 presidential campaign?

Who says you can't be a war hero and a peace protester at the same time?

[GAsux]

Hmmm let's see.

#1.) I love how the Republicans are going to use Kerry's "protesting" as a campaign issue. Let's be honest. Who on earth has a more valid reason to protest a war than a person who actually fought it? Sure hippies are great and well intentioned and their cause is admirable. But their opposition to war in general is purely theoretical. I don't understand why anyone remotely thinks its an issue that a man who witnessed war first hand, and had legitimate first hand experience upon which he could base his opposition, actually did so. Gee what a dick he is. He actually FOUGHT in the war, saw it first hand, and concluded that it was wrong and came home to protest against it in the hopes of saving others from having to do what he did. Yeah, what a shady guy. He should have stayed home, helped run campaigns in the South, and dick around in the National Guard for a while so that 40 years later he could say "Well I WOULD HAVE gone if they asked me.". Bush's stand on Vietnam is clearly MUCH more credible.

#2.) There are mountains upon mountains of evidence that document the kinds of activities Kerry claimed. Indiscriminant bombing, random artillery strikes on civilian populations, the indiscriminate use of harmful chemicals, and on and on. The fact that such things happen certainly does not demonstrate the fact that every Vietnam soldier was a baby raping murderer, but to deny the existence of such acts is naive at best and outright dishonest at worst.

#3.) Based upon this gem of journalism, I suppose one is to assume that Kerry is obviously going to lose because he's now lost the support of Vietnam Vets everywhere who hate him for serving his country like they did and coming home to voice his opposition to it. I'm pretty sure they'd much rather lend their support to a proven warrior with combat experience like Dubya who's already demonstrated his willingness to go to bat for the people currently "defending freedom by denying them pay raises, funding for quality of life issues, etc.

[phnompehn]

I think it's much more believable for someone who's actually been through a war to hate it. It's hell. Only an idiot like Bush who never faught in his life would think it was a glorious thing.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Kerry is trying to use it to his advantage....and there is nothing wrong with that. Just like there is nothing wrong with Bush using 9/11. It's a part of who they are....but so is what Kerry did after the war and so is Kerry's voting record.

"There are mountains upon mountains of evidence that document the kinds of activities Kerry claimed." - GASux

No there isn't. There was never any documentation or proof that he witnessed any thing like that. I think Jane Fonda did though.........Maybe he heard it from her.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"I think it's much more believable for someone who's actually been through a war to hate it." - phen

""He knew as an officer that those were lies. It never happened," said Vietnam veteran Carlton Sherwood. "He was principally responsible for cementing the image of Vietnam veterans as drugged-out psychopaths who were totally unrestrained and who were a murderous hoard."

[phnompehn]

I was stating a fact. Most of the vets I know don't think of Vietnam as being something to brag about.

[Ronnie Raygun]

Kerry was protesting other vets and that's why they don't like him. Can you blame them, especially after telling those lies and hanging out with Jane Fonda?

[GAsux]

Ronnie,
You are probably more familiar with LOAC and what constitutes war crimes more than I am.

Kerry said the U.S. made a policy of war crimes and attrocities. There is much evidence to document his assertion. Numerous accounts from both military and civilian folks involved agree. You probably know more about napalm and defoliage agents more than I do but they seem pretty attrocious to me.

By the way, what constitues "hanging out" with Jane Fonda? Do you have some kind of evidence beyond a silly picture with him in the background? I have a picture of Shaq with me behind him. I guess you could say I "hang out" with the big fella right? And based upon our "hanging out" together, I am probably a really great basketball player. Just like Kerry is probably a dirty rotten traitor bastard like Jane Fonda. Makes perfect sense to me.[/url]

[Ronnie Raygun]

" Just like Kerry is probably a dirty rotten traitor bastard like Jane Fonda. Makes perfect sense to me" - GAsux

It really doesn't matter if it does or not. The damage is done, the connection has been drawn.....and vets are pissed that he encouraged those who called them baby killers and spit on them in airports.

[Miss Modular]

Originally Posted by GAsux

Let's be honest. Who on earth has a more valid reason to protest a war than a person who actually fought it? Sure hippies are great and well intentioned and their cause is admirable. But their opposition to war in general is purely theoretical. I don't understand why anyone remotely thinks its an issue that a man who witnessed war first hand, and had legitimate first hand experience upon which he could base his opposition, actually did so. Gee what a dick he is. He actually FOUGHT in the war, saw it first hand, and concluded that it was wrong and came home to protest against it in the hopes of saving others from having to do what he did. Yeah, what a shady guy.

Thank you.

BTW, Ronnie? That Kerry/Fonda picture was photoshopped.

[GAsux]

I gotcha. So it DOESN'T matter if Kerry was "hanging out" with Jane Fonda or merely attending an event that she was at?

I know a girl who went to a Michael Jackson concert a few years back. I suppose that makes her a child molestor, seeing as how they were at the same place, at the same time. I mean, the reason she went there and her association with him is not the least bit important. I mean hell, they were there TOGETHER!

The reason the perception is more important than the truth is because dimwits like you would rather forego the bother of finding the truth for fear that it might contradict your silly notions and blatant agenda. Who cares about the truth when it goes against your beliefs?

[mburbank]

Bush 'hung out' with 'Kenny Boy Lay' and took loads of money from him. Rumsfled 'hung out' with Saddam Hussein and shook his hand.

The damage is done, the connection has been drawn.....and voters are pissed that they encouraged coroporate criminals who stole their retirement and despotic tyrants who used WMD on their own people.

As far as war crimes being policy, I have four words for you. Winter Soldier, Tiger force. You will find in both cases far more testimonial eyewitness evidence to american war crimes than you will for people spitting on vets. In fact, you will find no contemporary evidence at all of spitting on vitenam vets beyond the metaphorical.

On the issue of vets supporting or not supporting Kerry, I think you'll find that they're actual people with different beliefs, convictions and reaction to their war experience.

Linking Kerry with Fonda is an insult to the intelligence of all who hear it, and an indication of the contempt in which certain elements of the Republican party hold their constituents.

I think your comparison to W's right to 9/11 vs. Kerry's right to Vietnam is spurious. Both W. and Kerry were high elected officials on Septmeber 11'th. True W. held the ntional stage, but 9/11 belongs to him no more than it does to any American and far less then it does to the families, firefighters and police. If W. wants to tout his National Guard service, that would be a paralell to Kerry's service in Vietnam, another national tragedy both were around for and both reacted to in ways that define their characters.

[Ronnie Raygun]

"BTW, Ronnie? That Kerry/Fonda picture was photoshopped." - Mod

One was but that's not the one I was talking about.

"I gotcha. So it DOESN'T matter if Kerry was "hanging out" with Jane Fonda or merely attending an event that she was at?" - Gasux

No you don't. Kerry was at a rally which he spoke at along with Jane Fonda. The rally was full of anti-war protesters who called American GI's baby killers and spit on them in airports when they came home. Many of them were also communists, the very thing that this country was fighting at the time.....and that's why vets are angry at Kerry.

And that's a fact.

"Bush 'hung out' with 'Kenny Boy Lay' and took loads of money from him." - Max

So did Gore and the democrats. Why did you fail to mention that?

"Rumsfled 'hung out' with Saddam Hussein and shook his hand." - Max

HAHAHAHA! I think you're laughing too.

"The damage is done, the connection has been drawn.....and voters are pissed that they encouraged coroporate criminals who stole their retirement and despotic tyrants who used WMD on their own people." - Max

Maybe, but they don't blame Bush. Maybe that's why you are so frustrated.

" As far as war crimes being policy, I have four words for you. Winter Soldier, Tiger force. You will find in both cases far more testimonial eyewitness evidence to american war crimes than you will for people spitting on vets. In fact, you will find no contemporary evidence at all of spitting on vitenam vets beyond the metaphorical." - Max

What does any of that have to do with John Kerry. We are talking about John Kerry and what he said HE saw with his own eyes which was later exposed as a lie.

"On the issue of vets supporting or not supporting Kerry, I think you'll find that they're actual people with different beliefs, convictions and reaction to their war experience."

Kerry might be able round up a few for a photo op. The vast majority will be against him.

"Linking Kerry with Fonda is an insult to the intelligence of all who hear it, and an indication of the contempt in which certain elements of the Republican party hold their constituents" - Max

Nice play on words.....

The fact is that it hurts the left and exposes them for who they really are.

"Both W. and Kerry were high elected officials on Septmeber 11'th. True W. held the ntional stage, but 9/11 belongs to him no more than it does to any American and far less then it does to the families, firefighters and police." - Max

Bush isn't claiming that he "owns" 9/11. I don't know what you are talking about.

"If W. wants to tout his National Guard service, that would be a paralell to Kerry's service in Vietnam, another national tragedy both were around for and both reacted to in ways that define their characters."

I don't have a problem with that.

We can also talk about what Kerry did right after the war and talk about his voting record which didn't support the military one little bit.

[mburbank]

Tiger force and winter soldier and Mai lai for that matter, are proof that Americans regularly committed atrocities during the Vietnam war. Kerry claims he saw such things. So do a number of Vets I've worked with. Where is the 'proof' he didn't? We know those events were there to see. How do you know what happened with units and in places Kerry was?

I challenge you to find a single contemporary report of someone spitting on a returning US vet. Even one. You won't. It's a shiboleth.

"that's why vets are angry at Kerry. And that's a fact. "
No, that is an opinion. Some Vets, certainly. How many? I have no idea, and neither do you. Six? Sixty? Six hundred? To my knowledge, no one has done a survey of Vietnam vets and how the feel about Kerry. I believe you are certain in your heart about how the majority of vets feel. That's nice, but it's not a fact by any definition of the word I'm aware of.

"Maybe, but they don't blame Bush."
Thank you, Psychic Ronnie.

"Kerry might be able round up a few for a photo op. The vast majority will be against him. "
Thank you, Psychic Ronnie.

"The fact is that it hurts the left and exposes them for who they really are. "
Confuse the word 'fact' for 'opinion' again and I'll be force to confuse you with Vinth. That would hurt me.

"Bush isn't claiming that he "owns" 9/11. I don't know what you are talking about. "
So if Kerry were to use footage of bodies being dragged out of the wreckage of the twin towers in his adds, that wouldn't be a problem for the RNC? Or would they be too busy threatening frivolous law suits to tie up our courts and frighten people. Where's torte reform when you need it?

[Miss Modular]

"Kerry might be able round up a few for a photo op. The vast majority will be against him. "

That's bullshit. My father served in the Navy during the Vietnam War, and was initially for the war in Iraq, is a supporter of Kerry. A few of his other veteran friends are as well.

[mburbank]

Okay, so there's our few guys for the photo op. plus the guys from Kerry's boat.

So there's the Kerry boat guys, and mods dad and his riends. Statistically speaking that's pretty odd, that all the vets for Kerry would either have been on his boat or frinds of mods dad, but that's a fw, so I guess that's it.