Atheism

[VinceZeb]

kelly, I have heard the whole existentialist story before. My favorite teacher at my school used to be one. Pretty much summed it up with the fact that once they set their goal and achieve it, they off themselves, since nothing has meaning. Hemmingway and a few others were famous existentialists.

[The Retro Kat]

The belief sytem I refer to, little boy, is that religion says that "you have to do this" or "you can't do that" in order to get in heaven. The freedom you get is you can do anything to the extent of your morals.

[Helm]

Christianity does offer free will.

Hm. This is an issue that could be discussed at length.

Take the garden of eden bit. Eat anything, but not from that tree, for it is the tree of knowledge. Now, this is where free will comes in. Man had the chance to remain ignorant and blissful, or to eat the fruit of knowledge and go against God's will, right?

However, since man would be God's creation, he can be said to have designed man exactly as he wished, so if he instilled within him the drive for knowledge and ambition, that would be part of his design. Nothing is beyond a God, not even knowledge of the future. So the eating of the forbidden fruit as being choice would be a non-argument, since man's instinctual and logical drive has been predetermined by the same God that forbade him to use it. It's like saying that you have a choice to breathe or not breathe.

Following this line of thinking, a lot of JudeoChristian folklore legend could be reinspected to some pretty interesting results, but I'm no Gnostic, so I don't really care to go that far. God is a silly notion to begin with, as far as I'm concerned.

[Vibecrewangel]

I've often pondered the God created us in his image subject. One of the theories I've come up with is that the meaning behind that is more that God showed us himself in a way we could understand. That is why each culture views God differently.

This coincides with my belief that the word God is just that. A word. (Sorry Italian.....I know you disagree with this) It's a word to describe a concept.

If you take away the names used in may religions to describe the concept, you have very similar stories.

The concept isn't the problem.....naming the concept is.

[Protoclown]

Originally Posted by CaptainBubba

Protoclown, the Bible is the greatest novel of all of human history, period. This is not an opinion. It is the best selling peice of written word in all recored history, and therefore from an objective point of view, the "greatest".

Hey, "American Idol" and "Friends" are two of the highest-rated TV shows on right now, but would you consider either one of them to be among the greatest?

Quantity and quality are two entirely different measurements.

[VinceZeb]

The Bible has also lasted for 10000+ years, counting the Old and New Testaments.

[Helm]

No it hasn't. You're a complete moron. The basis of the Judaistic text which provided the backbone of the old testament date back to no more than the Iron Age (c 1200-600 BC) , or quite a bit more realistically, the Hellenistic periods (third to first century BC). You're a complete and utter idiot. Please go away.

[VinceZeb]

Helm, you know, the Old Testament didn't just magically appear one day when it was WRITTEN DOWN, STUPID! It was passed on orally, which means they used their mouth to tell the stories. Ya know, the mouth? The utensil that your mother used to get the money to put the food on your table? They did pass on stories back then by telling them, since many couldn’t write. The first main Jewish writer was Moses. And because something is not written down, doesn’t mean that the event did not happen or the story has not existed. If we told the story of Paul Revere through oral stories and had not written it down for 300 years, and suddenly someone did, does it make it 300+ years old or 3 days old? And you call ME a moron.

The Old Testament stories date back to (according to Jewish history) back to 8000 BC and supposedly as far back as 10000BC, which to creationists would have been the creation of the Earth. Now, 8000 (or 10000) + 2003 would be.... *drumroll*

> Than 10000 YEARS!

So, would you like me to put it in your ass or mouth the next time I fuck you up for being a scholarly idiot?

[pjalne]

Yeah, but they weren't THE BIBLE. They were connected stories and part of the same mythos, but they weren't a collection with a name on it. And not all of these made it into the Bible, some of the major continuity problems and the stories that gave a conflicting image of God were excluded. Judeo-Christian stories and myths can be traced thousands of years back (in fact, a lot of them are adapted from even older mythical structures like Gilgamesh), but when you say 'The Bible has also lasted for 10000+ years, counting the Old and New Testaments,' the most logical way to read it is to assume you are talking about the book.

[CaptainBubba]

Like I said Proto, Objectively it is the greatest. In my own opinion I'd say "Speaker for the Dead" is the bestest.

Though I personally think that everything in Leviticus is indeed quality material.

[VinceZeb]

pj, cite your sources. The Torah was a collection of tales, just as the new testament is. You are not saying anything that is not already known. Thus, you are adding nothing to the conversation.

[pjalne]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

pj, cite your sources.

Staying with my parents for easter, so I don't have my books handy. A quick net search should get you a long way.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

The Torah was a collection of tales, just as the new testament is.

Which is relevant how..?

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

You are not saying anything that is not already known. Thus, you are adding nothing to the conversation.

That would be a valid point if that was what I was trying to do. What I was saying was that you probably should think twice before lashing out at someone for replying to what you actually write instead of doing the impossible and replying to what you were thinking about but were unable to type out. I don't know what your attention disorder is, but it shouldn't be our problem.

[VinceZeb]

That would be a valid point if that was what I was trying to do. What I was saying was that you probably should think twice before lashing out at someone for replying to what you actually write instead of doing the impossible and replying to what you were thinking about but were unable to type out. I don't know what your attention disorder is, but it shouldn't be our problem.

Are you just going to babble on or say something smart?

[pjalne]

I guess I can assume none of you guys will blame me for just leaving that one alone

[Helm]

What, you mean you have something better to do that sit here and argue over the glaringly obvious with some moron that can't even speak his mother tongue?

[pjalne]

Found an essay about faulty physics in Speed 2: Cruise Control.

[Helm]

Share the fun.

[pjalne]

http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/

It turned out to be from a site that specializes in pointing out erroneous physics in movies. In other words: nerds bitch about momentum and acceleration. And say things like 'The movie's computer mumbo-jumbo isn't worthy of a C++.'

We've gone off-track. Please continue the discussion if you're still interested, I'm getting the hell out of this thread before I fuck up things further.

[Vibecrewangel]

I see The Core ending up there if it ain't already.

I swear they actually used Bullshitium.

[AChimp]

I've talked about this before; Moses ripped off a lot of stuff from other cultures when he wrote the first parts of the Old Testament. There are very distinct parallels between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Great Flood myth. Since he was present in the Egyptian court for the first chunk of his life, he would have had access to the libraries that contained this literature.

Aside from that, Vince, you claim that the Old Testament was passed down orally for more than 7000 years (Moses = approximately 1000 BC) before it was written down doesn't prove a lot. Please, cite your source that gives concrete proof this occurred and that it was written down EXACTLY the way it had been told.

[VinceZeb]

Ok, AChimp, give your proof that Moses ripped off the Epic of Gilgamesh. Wow, they match up in some ways. So do a lot of things. That doesn't mean that one is a rip off of another. And why couldn't it be the other way around? And where is the proof that Moses lived around 1000BC?

You always need proof from me. I would like some from you. Touche.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by Vibecrewangel

The concept isn't the problem.....naming the concept is.

What it boils down to, to me, is this. People invent ways to explain their existence and then make up stories, parables, lessons, maxims to support your claims. Yet most religions, however demonstrated in action or word seem to say the same things because they all emanate from the same place ... mankind. And we go to war over the "name" of the concept. Ridiculous but true. :/

[The Retro Kat]

The fact that the stories in the bible were passed down orally does not mean that they are true. The story of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree did not happen. It was a story to help strengthen the image of him, and it has been passed down for quite awhile. Although, it was not written right away.


We could also take the story of Adam and Eve in the same way. Even my junior high religion teacher said it did not happen. (an atheist from a fucking catholic school, what are the odds). It's just made up to show this god fellow's character and to answer the question of original sin.

[The_Rorschach]

"It was a story to help strengthen the image of him, and it has been passed down for quite awhile. Although, it was not written right away."

My head hurts. Badly. The story you are citing, by Mason Locke Weems written in 1806, was NOT a propaganda piece used to "strengthen the image of (Washington)." He wrote of the 'legend' of Washington, much as he did with Franklin. It was not to be taken anymore seriously than the exploits of Paul Bunyion. It was a little fact mixed with alot of hype, and he commented as much his himself.

This is like trying to say anyone actually believed the world was flat, as depicted by Washington Irving - You know, the same fucker that wrote Sketch Book (1820), which included his stories of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow (The Headless Horseman) and Rip Van Winkle?

Give people some credit. Not everyone is that incredulous.

[waterwitch]

okay, okay...we get the idea that NO ONE can agree on this religion bullshit...how about you just leave it at that? you're not going to able to convince people against their will...just won't happen...

and i point out to all you lovely "christians" that ONE THIRD of the entire human race believe in any sort of christianity...does that mean that the other 2/3's are wrong?

oh, and find some other holidays to celebrate instead of stealing pagan ones...(edit - not stealing...borrowing and using would be a better description...)