Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 10:35 AM        Kevin Tillman
I found this moving.






It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier leaves us without a voice… until we get out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:02 AM       
Stupid people of america unite! WE CAN STILL BRING IT TOGETHER AND OUR FIRST POLITICAL MOVE WILL BE THE IMMEDIATE DECREASING OF IN AND OUTS DOUBLE DOUBLE PRICEs. CLEARLY RAISING IT FIFTY CENTS IS A TRAGEDY TO THE WORKING MAN AND DRIVE THROUGH CONBIUSSEUR.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #3  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:07 AM       
I have no idea what you meant after 'stupid american's unite', which I'll guess is your way of saying you thought the article was stupid. I don't suppose you'd care to say what you thought was stupid about it?

Surely you are not saying that the issues raised by Tillman are on a par with being upset about fast food prices going up, which is to say trivial?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
AChimp AChimp is offline
Resident Chimp
AChimp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Jungles of Borneo
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:13 AM       
The rising price of fast food can be offset by saving up to 15% on your auto insurance by switching to Geico.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:14 AM       
See? Trivial. I don't think you should be so upset about it, Kal. AND I don't think saving with Geico can address any of Tillman's concerns.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:28 AM       
actually i thought the article was pretty decent even though i didn't like the fact that it's obviously sensationalist and designed to get people angry and motivated. i just thought the idea of americans uniting for some common justifiable goal would be a bit out there and impossible you know.

"Surely you are not saying that the issues raised by Tillman are on a par with being upset about fast food prices going up, which is to say trivial?"

no, just that the common american's are more interested with trivial issues than important ones... more or less. I don't know really i was just trying to say that if america united to acheive some goal they'd probably get distracted by the rising injustice of fastfood prices.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #7  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:35 AM       
Oh, okay, now I get it. I wish I could say I thought you were wrong, but I once read the largest letter writting campaign in American hostory had to do with the brief removal of Brown M&M's from circulation. That may be an urban legend, but it has a certain amount of truth in it.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:46 AM       
well it's kind of to be expected when you look at who it is that votes. I mean the people i meet in my day to day life and the stupid shit they do amazes me sometimes. When you start to think all the crazy jerks on the road and stupid people at work are the ones voting you realize why our system sucks it's own asshole. All these stupid people voting certainly aren't going to come together to do something worthwhile for everyone, the last time america came together we went to war with iraq. In that sense this article is unintentionally ironic.

man not to throw this off topic but is california the only place that has absolutely no business ethic? Every person my girlfriend and I have worked for over the past few years has been a crazy cunt. Like this one lady who claimed she spied on my girlfriend talking to me at work for 45 minutes, and when my girlfriend pulled up the call history it was only like 7 minutes. and that was the management who was "spying" instead of working.
now that's something to get riled up about!~
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #9  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 11:47 AM       
Max, out of curiosity, was that in a fundraising letter, or maybe an e-mail, that you received? The reason I ask is that it reads like a direct mail piece, which would explain the tone kahl had mentioned. It has everything but the ask, even the way the sentences are structured.

So, with that being said-- Yeah, it was well written. But it was pretty sensationalist, and I think going through his argument point-by-point would be pretty pointless.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 12:03 PM       
No, I don't ever open direct mail, and since I told the Democratic National Committe to never ever call me or mail me ever again, I've recieved less mail from them. ( I'm in favor of a Democratci swep in Nov, but it's a lesser of two evils situation. A WAY lesser, but still evil enough) Pretty much the only direct mail come ons I get anymoe are from the National Organization for Women (which my daughters mock me about endlessly) and Robert Redord. I don't even get mail from the ACLU anymore.

I found it on Truthout, but I don't know if he wrote if for them or not. Most of their stuff comes from the press, both articles and op eds, and they have a small contributing staff of their own (all reasonbly well known authors and journalists) every once and a while they throw in guest commentaries, which this may well be.

I don't know if I agree t's sensationalist, as I think that speaks to not just inetnt, but veracity. It's certainly evocative. But I think you can give it the benefit of the doubt for the author believeing what's in it, unless it turns out to be a hoax. I don't think it's hard to imagine that the surviving Tillman brother might feel somewhat embittered about the sacrifices he's made. And he did wait until he was out of the army to be as candid as this.

Would you say he was an unhinged hack in the Kiellor mode, or something else?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Preechr Preechr is offline
=======
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NA
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 12:38 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
No, I don't ever open direct mail, and since I told the Democratic National Committe to never ever call me or mail me ever again, I've recieved less mail from them. ( I'm in favor of a Democratci swep in Nov, but it's a lesser of two evils situation. A WAY lesser, but still evil enough) Pretty much the only direct mail come ons I get anymoe are from the National Organization for Women (which my daughters mock me about endlessly) and Robert Redord. I don't even get mail from the ACLU anymore.

I found it on Truthout, but I don't know if he wrote if for them or not. Most of their stuff comes from the press, both articles and op eds, and they have a small contributing staff of their own (all reasonbly well known authors and journalists) every once and a while they throw in guest commentaries, which this may well be.

I don't know if I agree t's sensationalist, as I think that speaks to not just inetnt, but veracity. It's certainly evocative. But I think you can give it the benefit of the doubt for the author believeing what's in it, unless it turns out to be a hoax. I don't think it's hard to imagine that the surviving Tillman brother might feel somewhat embittered about the sacrifices he's made. And he did wait until he was out of the army to be as candid as this.

Would you say he was an unhinged hack in the Kiellor mode, or something else?
I doubted it at first, so I looked it up. It's a post by Kevin TIllman on a site he contributes to.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...pats_birthday/
__________________
mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 12:40 PM       
i don't think he was being an unhinged hack or anything like that. He didn't seem like he was too crazy.

I consider anything that's designed to directly appeal/have an emotional effect on a person as "Sensationalist". Whereas I'd consider the other side of the fence as "Informative"-- objective maybe? I mean, you can still have an emotional effect but it shouldn't be intended, because that is biased and purposeful. People get misled easily by their emotions-- not that I'm saying they are bad or anything. Sadly, what most people want is to follow their emotions, as they themselves are "Sensationalists".
He points that out in the article himself, I think. Like i said i thought it was a pretty decent writing.


*connection was refused preechr.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Preechr Preechr is offline
=======
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NA
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 02:15 PM       
See, that's why I don't link to things. As soon as I mention a webpage, so many people flock to it that their servers get overwhelmed.

Sorry, Truthdig...
__________________
mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 03:09 PM       
You know, when you light out for the territories, it's going to be more boring here. you pro torture bastard.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Preechr Preechr is offline
=======
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NA
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 03:49 PM       
They got tubes there, too, buddy!
__________________
mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 04:01 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
Would you say he was an unhinged hack in the Kiellor mode, or something else?
I don't know that I'd call him unhinged in the Kiellor mode, but more like the bordering-on-unhinged like Pouty Max.


Quote:
I don't think it's hard to imagine that the surviving Tillman brother might feel somewhat embittered about the sacrifices he's made. And he did wait until he was out of the army to be as candid as this.
Was Afghanistan a bad cause? Say what you want about the handling of it post invasion, but I was under the impression you supported the invasion of Afghanistan. That's where Pat died, right?

Is Bush to blame for the friendly fire that killed his brother, too? Doesn't that happen in all wars?

Is he entitled to be angry? Sure. His brother is dead. And I don't think he invalidates his service in any way by speaking out.

But speaking out doesn't necessarily mean he really has anything to say.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 20th, 2006, 07:23 PM       
I like how if you goto the webpage and read people's comments everyone talks about how they cried.

IM SORRY ABOUT PAT TELL YOUR FAMILY FOR ME
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #18  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 21st, 2006, 09:10 AM       
I think more than te friendly fire incident, he might be a little angry about the way he and his family wee lied to about the cause of death, how initially his death was used as a propoganda tool, and how even now, as far as I know, no one has been held responsible for the slowly unravelling series of lies they've been told.

In addition, Kevin Tillman served in Iraq after Afghanistan along with lots of other soldiers who got dragged out of Afghanistan to fight in an unrelated war, and that may have a great deal to do with why Afghanistan is still an ongoing war and Osama is still at large That might make you angry if your brother died fighting a war that had a point.

I think I'm more unhinged than he is in the pouty sense, since I've lost nothing directly. All my losses are theoretical at this pint, where as Tillman is out one brother and has far more reason to believe his country isn't what he believed it was.

I think soldiers might be angry and disapointed if they feel their fellow soldiers lives are being thrown way.

And 'pouty', Kev? Like your 'not %100 behind' and 'wouldn't shed a tear' I find your response to current events tepid. Geat war for civilization or pointless excercise, either way a lot of people are dying. I'm not sure 'pouty' is a very good word to use in ths situation. It's like calling the Geneva conventions 'quaint'.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 21st, 2006, 11:45 AM       
"I think soldiers might be angry and disapointed if they feel their fellow soldiers lives are being thrown way"

that would be hilarious coming from a soldier. if you join the army you should expect that you're going to die. The war against iraq has how many casualties anyway? The whole shock and awe thing... they weren't being "Wasteful" with lives.
the purpose of the soldier is to die and kill, but mostly die.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #20  
KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
Mocker
KevinTheOmnivore's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Old Oct 21st, 2006, 09:49 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
I think more than te friendly fire incident, he might be a little angry about the way he and his family wee lied to about the cause of death, how initially his death was used as a propoganda tool, and how even now, as far as I know, no one has been held responsible for the slowly unravelling series of lies they've been told.
Is that what he's addressing in this piece? i think you're right about all of the above, but wa that his gripe here?

My theory is, honestly, a cynical one. My guess is that he didn't write this, although I'm sure you can attribute every word to him in meaning. My guess is it was crafted and sassed up by someone else, and maybe this copy has or will see its way into some kind of mail piece or e-mail blast. Not certain, but a guess.

That doesn't necessarily make him wrong, but the whole thing has an agenda sent to it.

Quote:
In addition, Kevin Tillman served in Iraq after Afghanistan along with lots of other soldiers who got dragged out of Afghanistan to fight in an unrelated war, and that may have a great deal to do with why Afghanistan is still an ongoing war and Osama is still at large That might make you angry if your brother died fighting a war that had a point.
Maybe. I dunno, personally I get a little weirded out when people start speaking with such absolutes fo the dead.

Kevin Tillman's service, as you've pointed out, has every damn right to say precisely what he wants. He maybe should've focused a piece on that, but this reminds me a little bit too much of Cindy Sheehan.


Quote:
either way a lot of people are dying. I'm not sure 'pouty' is a very good word to use in ths situation. It's like calling the Geneva conventions 'quaint'.
I love you, Max. You always want to have it both ways. FIrst this is a joke site, and to take things too seriously is criminal. BUT, if you don't take seriously the very serious seriousness of war, well you are crass and vulgar.

I was calling YOU pouty, but maybe cranky would be better. I'm vapid and you're cranky. Neat.

I take war pretty seriously, I also take our enemies pretty seriously. I think they're more serious than merely a criminal matter, and I think Pat Tillman knew that as well. He walked awat from a very comfortable life to surrender his own life. The circumstances of his death are tragic, but it doesn't dismiss the value of his service. It would be great to know what he really thinks about the war to date, but unfortunately we can't.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Ant10708 Ant10708 is offline
Mocker
Ant10708's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New York
Old Oct 22nd, 2006, 07:12 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
Oh, okay, now I get it. I wish I could say I thought you were wrong, but I once read the largest letter writting campaign in American hostory had to do with the brief removal of Brown M&M's from circulation. That may be an urban legend, but it has a certain amount of truth in it.
The Light brown M&M is still gone! I think we need to start another large letter writing campaign. This has gone on long enough!
__________________
I'm all for the idea of stoning the rapists, but to death...? That's a bit of a stretch, but I think the system will work. - Geggy
Reply With Quote
  #22  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
Old Oct 23rd, 2006, 09:12 AM       
I happily plead guilty to be being cranky. Absolutely.

Does this mean you agree you are vapid? Actually, I think 'tepid' is what I said, as in luke warm, but vapid is okay too, and I might have said it.

And Kahl, of course every soldier accepts that they are liable to die. Perhaps soldiers should acccept that their lives are liable to be thrown away for political expediency or because suits that never served don't want to admit failure. Unfortunately, I think lots of soldiers join the army thinking thir service to their country is more meaningful, and find their lives being exteniguished in for what seems to many to be meaningless, pointless, or in some cases even flatly wrong, it embitters them.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Archduke Tips Archduke Tips is offline
Member
Archduke Tips's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Old Oct 23rd, 2006, 12:14 PM        Re: Kevin Tillman
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people.
Max,
I'd be curious to hear your opinion on the role of each player in the road to the war in Iraq.

Who do you think the players are? (ex: American People, Gov't, Osama) And what do you think their roles were?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
kahljorn kahljorn is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Oct 23rd, 2006, 01:03 PM       
"Unfortunately, I think lots of soldiers join the army thinking thir service to their country is more meaningful, and find their lives being exteniguished in for what seems to many to be meaningless, pointless, or in some cases even flatly wrong, it embitters them."

Well, I guess they should use their brains before they decide what to do.
I like how samurai's viewed war, to an extent.
__________________
NEVER
Reply With Quote
  #25  
McClain McClain is offline
Fuck Yeah
McClain's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hoosier
Old Nov 2nd, 2006, 09:33 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
My theory is, honestly, a cynical one. My guess is that he didn't write this, although I'm sure you can attribute every word to him in meaning. My guess is it was crafted and sassed up by someone else, and maybe this copy has or will see its way into some kind of mail piece or e-mail blast. Not certain, but a guess.
Were you the author of the recent Kerry speech?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:18 AM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.