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  #26  
Fathom Zero Fathom Zero is offline
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 02:41 PM       
Someone laid out exactly how the leaks wouldn't hurt troops but fuck if I can actually find it.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 02:54 PM       
I think I read something like that over at the BBC.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 03:02 PM       
It's not like our government isn't bright enough to use leaked documents to make the enemy think they have the upper hand, then SURPRISE! If I was at the table, I would be suggesting leaking a few "truths" to gain advantage.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 03:03 PM       
You know what wouldn't hurt the troops? Leaving!

HHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHH WHAT A FUNNY JOKE YOU SEE
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 03:10 PM       
Fuck the troops. They just got laser guided grenade launchers.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 05:16 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Paul
In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble.
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  #32  
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 06:04 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Information that should never be made public. Is there really ever such a thing?
Military secrets. Telling the world where a government is placing troops is doing just that, of course you hate America so I am not even going to try and persuade you why this is wrong to do to any country, but I will ask you to tell me how you would feel if it were done to say, China, or Cuba?

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Is there some truth out there that SHOULD be kept secret so that nobody will ever find out, ever, lest it endanger human kind somehow? So far, no. Everything put through wikileaks are things that the public should know about their governments. The torture of people, the use of banned weapons on civilians, the war talk, and plotting to topple democratically elected governments.... people should know these truths, then they can decide if they want those sort of things to go on in the world. If you want to argue that plotting to attack Iran should be secret from IRAN lest they strike first and kill people etc etc.... do you really think Iran isn't planning war against the US as well?
So then why isn't he doing the same thing to other countries? Why only the US? Until he does, this counterargument comes off as empty.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
"Lives are at stake" is something that I have heard several times on the news; but I haven't heard how they are a stake, whose lives and why. Weigh it up: which is more likely, that your government doesn't want people knowing about human rights abuses and shady political bullshit.... or that they are concerned people will get hurt as a result of people finding out about Israel bombing people with phosphorus artillery....?
Again, until I see him do this to other countries besides the US, I have to assume this is an anti American act of cyber-terrorism, and defending it comes off as just anti American sour grapes. If you want to defend what he did because you hate America, be a man and say so. But don't pretend to be altruistic about it when this is a single target expose and when we all know much worse human rights violations are going on unexposed in many other countries (North Korea anyone?)

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
It's not terrorism to break the news to the world that there is sort of shit going on. Don't shoot the messenger.
But it is terrorism to threaten to drop more information as he keeps repeatedly doing. If he was as altruistic as you you are now implying, why not drop it all? Why this slow leak? Could it be he wants to hit the snooze alarm repeatedly on his 15 minutes of fame? Seems that way to me, and his actions support this view

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Oh, and I've read nothing about him that would suggest he is an anarchist. If he was then I would have more respect for him than now.
I judge a man by his actions, and to me his actions are those of an anarchist

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
You're saying that Julian Assange is stealing people's identities, and has no respect for privacy rights?
I compared his hacking to another group who hacks and steals information for personal gain. His personal gain is fame, theirs is money, neither are doing it for selfless reasons.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Who's privacy rights? A government should have no right to privacy, and should be open to the people it claims to defend and serve. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but if it has THESE secrets that we now know about, what else isn't your government (and mine, and his, and hers) telling you?
Classified information is classified for a reason. You act like the US is the first country in the universe to ever have secrets. I am willing to bet the USSR has stories that would make your skin crawl with things they did that violated human rights.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I think Assange was charged with some cyber hacking in his yoof, which you may be referring to, but that's not what he is doing now. He's not hacking government websites to steal info, he is offering a medium for whistle-blowers to get their stuff out there. Isn't some US private still being held in prison without trial over being a whistle-blower on Abu-Gahrib prisoner abuses, or something along those lines? You punish the person that speaks up about abuse and torture, but not the torturers. Nice.


Which victims? The US government? Several governments have been forced to address facts about their actions. Things which should ALWAYS be under public scrutiny. If you know of any human victims, then let me know.
This one is easy to address, if he is whistle blowing military secrets (like exposing where US stations troops) then we are compromised strategically, which can lead to a diminished military, which can in turn lead to another attack on US soil. I personally have seen enough of that for one lifetime and do not want to tempt other groups to attack us because our military has been compromised.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Alternate means to justice. Nice. I doubt he will end up dead any time soon, although I'm not writing it off completely, but you really think he doesn't deserve a trial in his OWN country? This is a really horrible thing about today; your government tells you that they are terrorists, and since they are terrorists they don't deserve the right to prove otherwise. You think that lies should be told to fight him, and that any means should be used to stop him, that's a reall.... ah, it just hit me, am I being.... trolled?
Don't you think to get a trial in your country you should commit crimes against that country instead of another one? If you don't want to be on trial in the US try this simple tip; don't commit crimes against the US

That's like saying a woman who gets raped in America by a foreigner has no rights to justice because the rapist was from another country. You just think he should avoid the US justice system because it was a crime against an entity you clearly dislike
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 06:37 PM       
Of the documents released by Wikileaks the most recent come from February and I doubt they pertained to troop placement. Most of what was released that did have to do with that kind of thing was what we were doing the last few years. As in shit that is already done and gone.

As far as "targeting America" I think thats unfair. Just because American whistle blowers come forward / release info 10:1 compared to other countries doesnt necessarily mean he is anti-America. Someone in this thread, I think The Leader, pointed out how a whistle blower in China or Russia was more likely to turn up missing.

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You wouldn't get leaks out of Beijing or Moscow because anyone like Pfc. Bradley Manning who did something like that in those places would suddenly disappear.
How is it cyber-terrorism? Our own diplomats and military personnel leaked it to him. He is just distributing it to other news outlets to make available to the public. Like Ron Paul said in the article I posted he should have the same protection that the media gets. Remember a few years ago when our own VP outed whats her name as a secret agent or whatever? Nothing happened to him. Remember when the war in Iraq started and Geraldo gave away troop positions on a news broadcast? Sure people gave him hell for it but nothing really happened to him and that pertained to events happening that day. Not some assault that happened two years before.

Classified information? Just because someone in a position of authority stamps something classified we shouldnt even question it? Just because? What if what they are doing is illegal and wrong? As far as the USSR goes... Part of what he released, while coming from American diplomat offices, detailed the dirty laundry of other countries. I mentioned it before some of the documents linked Putin to the Litvinenko murder and the Russian government in general as having ties to organized crime. The only difference here is we didnt really need leaked documents to know that about Russia.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 10:35 PM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
Military secrets. Telling the world where a government is placing troops is doing just that, of course you hate America so I am not even going to try and persuade you why this is wrong to do to any country, but I will ask you to tell me how you would feel if it were done to say, China, or Cuba?
I hate the US government, but I'd say I hate the Chinese government more. I strongly dislike the Cuban government. I don't hate Americans, Chinese or Cubans. I don't know what my personal views on nations has anything to do with anything right now though. I would feel great if more information was leaked about more governments; the more the merrier. If they start realising that they are slightly more accountable for their actions than before, then maybe less human rights abuses etc will happen.

Quote:
So then why isn't he doing the same thing to other countries? Why only the US? Until he does, this counterargument comes off as empty.
He isn't personally 'hacking' US government websites or crap like that, he is providing a medium for OTHER WHISTLE-BLOWERS to post their information so that the world can see it. He is not personally collecting anything, the website relies on people that have become fed up at seeing criminal activity go on behind closed curtains and want to speak out about it. Other countries have been mentioned in the wikileaks quite often, including Israel, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka... you don't read that because you are watching the news in America and it's only the SAFETY OF AMERICA that is the issue with wikileaks.

Hopefully people from more nations choose to speak out about criminal activities that their governments are responsible for. We all know it happens, but when it comes to light as fact, something you can't dodge, then more and more people will demand change.


Quote:
Again, until I see him do this to other countries besides the US, I have to assume this is an anti American act of cyber-terrorism, and defending it comes off as just anti American sour grapes. If you want to defend what he did because you hate America, be a man and say so. But don't pretend to be altruistic about it when this is a single target expose and when we all know much worse human rights violations are going on unexposed in many other countries (North Korea anyone?)
Again, he's not 'targeting' any one nation since all he is doing is providing an avenue for (so far) predominately US whistle-blowers. It's highly unlikely that documents pertaining to North Korean activities will surface, since it's highly unlikely that any North Korean with access to said information would survive.

All we have to go on about Nth Korean abuses stems from defectors, some reasonably high ranking, that have pretty much 'exposed' all the information that any sane person would need. Who doesn't know that North Korea is a horrible place to live where government sanctioned torture and crime, as well as political espionage etc, goes on daily?

Not that it has anything to do with Julian Assange or wikileaks, since they can't magic up a whistle-blower from nowhere, and can't hack into Nth Korean government documents, but do we NEED Nth Korean leaked information, or do we need to find out the secrets from the western governments, the ones that claim to serve and protect us and the ones that claim their wars are legal, and that torture is not something they partake in? We need to know what is going on with our own governments (and I really hope that more Australian documents come to light) since you and I are citizens of our own countries, and can affect change if needed.




Quote:
But it is terrorism to threaten to drop more information as he keeps repeatedly doing. If he was as altruistic as you you are now implying, why not drop it all? Why this slow leak? Could it be he wants to hit the snooze alarm repeatedly on his 15 minutes of fame? Seems that way to me, and his actions support this view
Why drop it all at once when the information will just get lost in a sea of information? That's counter-productive to the aim - let people know what is going on. Plus, all the information doesn't come out at the same time, it trickles in, so it trickles out.

Interesting note that I was unaware of at first, before the first major leak of US documents, all 500 thousand odd cables were made available to US analysis. Wikileaks itself checked all the content and blanked out any names they thought might be too sensitive or too dangerous to put in public.

Requests by wikileaks for the documents to be reviewed by the US were rejected. Wikileaks sent to the US ambassador in London a request: that wikileaks "would be grateful for the United States Government to privately nominate any specific instances ... where it considers the publication of information would put individual persons at significant risk of harm..."

Obviously the US government isn't too concerned about 'lives at risk' since it rejected the call on the grounds that US departments would "not engage in a negotiation" with wikileaks about the documents. Surely it would have been better for those at supposed risk if you read through the documents and blanked their names? Even IF you believed wikileaks wouldn't follow through on it's promise to respect such instances of individual risk, wouldn't it be better to TRY rather than just WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS and leave it at that? Wikileaks still blanked out many names, as previously stated, in the interests of privacy.


Quote:
I compared his hacking to another group who hacks and steals information for personal gain. His personal gain is fame, theirs is money, neither are doing it for selfless reasons.
That's a pretty big stretch of a comparison... the only link is that you think neither of them do what the do for personal gain. Santa Clause is just like a rapist, since they both do what they do to get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside themselves. Santa gives gifts, and a rapist rapes, but still - the same. Who is this 'other group' that hacks for money, by the way?

So you think that Julian Assange is doing all this for fame? The guy has had calls to assassinate him, serious ones. People in the US government have asked for him to be hunted down and neutralised. Fame? Honestly, there are better ways. It's a lot of work just for 'fame'. Wikileaks has been operating for, what, 5 years, and Assange himself is only just now 'famous', and I honestly believe that he would prefer it if he wasn't so widely known.


Quote:
Classified information is classified for a reason. You act like the US is the first country in the universe to ever have secrets. I am willing to bet the USSR has stories that would make your skin crawl with things they did that violated human rights.
You don't need to guess at what the USSR did to violate human rights, since a lot of documents were made public over the years since the break up of the USSR. You don't need to hit me in the guts with how bad the USSR was in cases of human rights; I am a more honest critic of the Soviet Union than most.

How do you know that classified information is classified for a GOOD reason? It's classified so that normal every day people don't get a chance to decide for themselves. Who decides what should be classified and what shouldn't? The same people that the classified documents are about... doesn't that strike you as a little bit of a bias? Knowing what we know now about most of these 'classified documents', they are kept secret for the sole reason that people wouldn't find out about criminal behaviour and therefore not endanger lives, but endanger the system of abuse the US government upholds.

Why do Sri Lankan war crimes need to be kept classified? Most of the leaked documents are classified because it is scandalous criminal activity that is going on - the exact same things that citizens of any country should know about their government.


Quote:
This one is easy to address, if he is whistle blowing military secrets (like exposing where US stations troops) then we are compromised strategically, which can lead to a diminished military, which can in turn lead to another attack on US soil. I personally have seen enough of that for one lifetime and do not want to tempt other groups to attack us because our military has been compromised.
I personaly haven't seen (I haven't read a large percentage of the hundreds of thousands of documents, surprise, surprise) any troop placement documents; if there are then I actually don't see it as that big a deal. What information is being given away? Where the US military ahs bases? I thought most of that was common knowledge. Just because Al-Qaeda finds out that you have a base in Swaziland doesn't mean that they will attack it, I figure they have enough targets as it is. Iran finding out about your secret bases on it's border would be something different, but I would say that setting up secret bases in sensitive places with a need for secrecy is asking for an attack anyhow. The point still stands though that Julian Assange is not blowing whistles on military secrets, wikileaks has provided an avenue for US military personnel to blow whistles.


Quote:
Don't you think to get a trial in your country you should commit crimes against that country instead of another one? If you don't want to be on trial in the US try this simple tip; don't commit crimes against the US

That's like saying a woman who gets raped in America by a foreigner has no rights to justice because the rapist was from another country. You just think he should avoid the US justice system because it was a crime against an entity you clearly dislike
He hasn't committed any crimes, nor will he get a trial in ANY country, most likely. A kangaroo court, perhaps. Better a trial by the US justice system than a US military tribunal, or 'sustained detention'.

What I was referring to though was thee fact that our PM has called him a criminal and said his actions are illegal. I think US officials have just stated how they want him to disappear, not that he has broken the law. If he has supposedly committed a crime against Australia (Which is unlikely) then if he is captured/detained (which is likely) he should get a fair trial in Australia. Note that you need to have proper reasons to BRING him to trial first. Or should.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 12:09 AM       
Jesus christ walls of text from everyone. I don't see why people are hating on this guy. It seems he's trying to start a revolution against all the censorship the country has been letting seep in. This government was SUPPOSED to be transparent. That's why they CAME here. Y'know.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 12:19 AM       
Eh, you start typing and you can't stop.

Thanks for splitting the thread, I was actually going to suggest it.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 12:27 AM       
If the US government actually puts him on trial for any such charges that in itself will give them more of a black eye than anything he could ever do.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 12:35 AM       
WTF guys, we aren't pussies over here. We are gonna find him, forcibly bring him back, then stick him in a box until we feel like abusing him. OH NO! The people might think less of us! In the last 20 years have seen no reason to believe that my government gives 2 shits about what the people think of them.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 04:09 AM       
Pentegarn, you make it sound like Assange has personally hacked computers world-wide just to disclose random secrets.
As Zhukov has pointed out, all he's done is provide a platform for whistle blowers. And the material published there is not protected by ethical principals of confidenitality - like patients' journals or personal details - instead it's conversations between the powers that be, dialogues between ambassadeurs and politicians elected by us, the people.
As a Swede I'm interested in knowing that Sweden has secretly more or less joined NATO, and has ongoing deals and agreements with the USA that hardly even our prime minister knows about.
I don't think you should regard this as an attack aimed specially at the USA; I think virtually all governments and secret agencies etc will get their fair share.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 07:07 AM       
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As a Swede I'm interested in knowing that Sweden has secretly more or less joined NATO, and has ongoing deals and agreements with the USA that hardly even our prime minister knows about.
That's actually really, really outrageous. This is the kind of thing that a people NEED to know about, because it affects them and THEIR safety. If an Australian government made some behind closed doors deal with the US to go to war with Iran or Nth Korea if war did happen to break out, or something along those lines, I would want to know. All Australians would want to know. If the US has a secret deal with Israel to go to war beside them if it breaks out with Iran... I'm sure you and every other American would want to know that.

That kind of 'classified' deal is the kind of thing that will end in people being harmed, killed, tortured, displaced etc. The secrets and lies of governments surrounding the Iraq and Afghan wars are responsible for more deaths than any documents on wikileaks will ever be.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 07:11 AM       
I get why you and Zhukov would feel the way you do. That being said I still think that some things are best left a secret. In fact because of the way the government in America exists I would go as far as to say it is pointless in many cases to leak secrets at all (putting aside the military ones I mean, which I still maintain should never be disclosed by or even to the private sector) because our elected officials often do not stay in power for very long (a trend that is starting to show even in places where there are no term limits to speak of).

Tadao kind of brushed against that point in his last statement. The reason the US government has little to no regard for their image has a lot to do with these term limits.

So lets say WikiLeaks dros a full disclosure on all the things that happened while Bush Jr. was in power, what will exposing and wrist slapping the current president really accomplish? Nothing, Bush Jr. is no longer in power and Obama had nothing to do with what he did, he is far too busy committing his own crimes to care what Bush Jr did, and whoever replaces Obama will care about as much about what Obama is doing now.

So let's say the UN drops all sorts of trade embargos to punish the US government, well what is the point then? The criminal is no longer in power, and the US as a country is now hurt economically. But who is that really hurting? The answer is it is hurting people (US citizens mostly) who had nothing to do with the crime itself. So in this call for blood all we would really accomplish is crippling the innocent economically.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 07:59 AM       
Honestly dude, you have got to be joking. Don't bother about war crimes or criminal espionage because, hey, it all happened under HIS election, not the current one. I mean, really.

So I guess you don't think the Nuremberg trials should have gone ahead? I mean, Hitler was cactus already.


Pentegarn, if you want to be apathetic towards what your country is doing then fine. Just don't assume that other people are ok with letting all this shit wash over them; in the US or around the world.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 10:11 AM       
I don't think wikileak's main purpose is to point fingers, or create scapegoats, but to try to change the rhetoric amongst those in power, and increase transparency. To tell tax payers and voters all over the world that, "look, this is the cynical jargon of your representatives, this is how they secretly trade and deal and form unholy pacts."

When people with political or economical power remain unscrutinized for too long, corruption and negligence will grow. We must always pressure them to remain open and frank. This time they were caught with their pants down, let's just applaud those who enabled us to see it.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 10:35 AM       
I think they're goals are a little more earnest than the shitty Anonymous' "Let's Troll the Man" policy.
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 08:29 PM       
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Honestly dude, you have got to be joking. Don't bother about war crimes or criminal espionage because, hey, it all happened under HIS election, not the current one. I mean, really.

So I guess you don't think the Nuremberg trials should have gone ahead? I mean, Hitler was cactus already.


Pentegarn, if you want to be apathetic towards what your country is doing then fine. Just don't assume that other people are ok with letting all this shit wash over them; in the US or around the world.
So it doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does? Really?

Nice try on playing the Nuremberg trials card, but those were individuals on trial, you keep calling an entire country out though and you don't seem to be asking 'how will my bloodlust effect the innocent?' If you want the individuals responsible thats fine, but quit it with America needs to pay. I don't recall having a say in what was done in these things leaked, yet according to you I, along with all the other citizens trying to just live their lives, should be punished because you think "America needs to pay"

EDIT: Also, kind of hypocritical to think one kind of criminal espionage is perfectly acceptable (wikileaks) and another kind is wrong (anything done by an American)
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 08:49 PM       
effect affect the innocent
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Old Dec 9th, 2010, 10:41 PM       
If wikileaks "Targetted" any other country, they prolly woulda been arrested or some shit already.
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 03:35 AM       
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So it doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does? Really?
Uh, what? I never said that. That's why I referenced the Nuremberg trials since it was the same people that committed crimes that were being punished.


Quote:
Nice try on playing the Nuremberg trials card, but those were individuals on trial, you keep calling an entire country out though and you don't seem to be asking 'how will my bloodlust effect the innocent?' If you want the individuals responsible thats fine, but quit it with America needs to pay. I don't recall having a say in what was done in these things leaked, yet according to you I, along with all the other citizens trying to just live their lives, should be punished because you think "America needs to pay"
Again: what? I didn't say anything about 'calling an entire country out' or saying America needs to pay. Did anyone? You're just fucking with me, aren't you?
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 07:29 AM       
You didn't have to say it, I am just following your logic to the proper conclusion. Just think about what you are proposing for a moment.

What exactly do you think will be the result of all this?

If the individuals are to be punished, who will do it? The UN? Well according to you people who commit a crime, no matter where they commit it need to have it done in their country so it couldn't be the UN, as the US will not recognize their jurisdiction to do so. As I am pretty sure the US won't bother putting the politicians on trial who did these things, that would be a wash.

Well that would then leave current leaders that the world would demand pay. The current leadership however did not have a thing to do with what happened, so again, if we follow your axiom that a criminal face their charges in their home country only, you will get nothing as a result.

Now the world is even more pissed and at this point the UN steps in, they have only one thing they can do at this point, sanctions that likely would jack up the import taxes the US pays. The only people that will hurt though is the common man because those jacked up costs will get passed on to the consumer. The economy here is already hurting enough, we have people in numbers rivaling the amount there were in the 70s not making ends meet. What do you suppose will happen to those people when this demand for justice reaches this inevitable point?

People all over the world get away with all sorts of horrible things all the time, and the reason many of these things go unpunished is because the consequences of punishment have a ripple effect on those who have nothing to do with the crime in question. The world is not as black and white as a political leader gets punished and then that's it. Look at Iraq. Did Saddam need punished? The black and white answer is yes. But look how it actually shook out. Do you honestly believe it was better for an outside entity to force a punishment on a sovereign nation? The country is mired in civil war, rampant terrorism, and has no real organized security to speak of. All because Bush Jr. made a demand for justice that was not thought out to the inevitable conclusion it was bound to have.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 10th, 2010, 10:03 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post

What exactly do you think will be the result of all this?
That's actually a good question. What I think will be the result to 'all of this' is some more leaked information on large banking corporations, the eventual shutting down of wikileaks, and perhaps new laws in some countries preventing it from happening again and making it illegal. I would also say that the positive result is that more people around the globe will have less trust in the political and economic systems which supposedly serve their needs, and perhaps be more inclined to not take everything their government says or does as right and truthful.

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If the individuals are to be punished, who will do it? The UN? Well according to you people who commit a crime, no matter where they commit it need to have it done in their country so it couldn't be the UN, as the US will not recognize their jurisdiction to do so. As I am pretty sure the US won't bother putting the politicians on trial who did these things, that would be a wash.
You know, I never actually brought up punishment, and I don't see it as a likely outcome anyhow. You're right in thinking that a trial in the US for anyone committing political or war crimes or some such would be a white wash.

No, I didn't say "people who commit a crime, no matter where they commit it need to have it done in their country" or thereabouts, I said that Assange hasn't done anything illegal, BUT out Prime Minister has insinuated that he has, calling his actions criminal, but not bothering to tell us what crimes. I said that if he has broken Australian laws then he should at least be told what the charges are and given a chance to defend against them, rather than just have the label of CRIMINAL stuck on him and hunted down for the US governments behalf. If, however, people do commit international crimes, such as war crimes, then I think that the UN is capable of handling the trial. Well, better than anyone else at the moment. This has gotten off topic though, as neither I nor Blasted Child have mentioned anything about bringing any criminals to justice.

Quote:
Well that would then leave current leaders that the world would demand pay. The current leadership however did not have a thing to do with what happened, so again, if we follow your axiom that a criminal face their charges in their home country only, you will get nothing as a result.
I don't understand this. I will say however that US ambassadors, diplomats, spies, military generals and other ranks... I don't think they get voted in and out every few years. But I don't really know what you are saying here.

Quote:
Now the world is even more pissed and at this point the UN steps in, they have only one thing they can do at this point, sanctions that likely would jack up the import taxes the US pays. The only people that will hurt though is the common man because those jacked up costs will get passed on to the consumer. The economy here is already hurting enough, we have people in numbers rivaling the amount there were in the 70s not making ends meet. What do you suppose will happen to those people when this demand for justice reaches this inevitable point?
Again, nobody is calling for sanctions against the US. I have no idea where you got this from. Let's just hope that you are against the sanctions against Venezuela and Cuba also, though. Perhaps even Nth Korea, since that definitely only hurts the working people.


Quote:
People all over the world get away with all sorts of horrible things all the time, and the reason many of these things go unpunished is because the consequences of punishment have a ripple effect on those who have nothing to do with the crime in question. The world is not as black and white as a political leader gets punished and then that's it. Look at Iraq. Did Saddam need punished? The black and white answer is yes. But look how it actually shook out. Do you honestly believe it was better for an outside entity to force a punishment on a sovereign nation? The country is mired in civil war, rampant terrorism, and has no real organized security to speak of. All because Bush Jr. made a demand for justice that was not thought out to the inevitable conclusion it was bound to have.
I think we are beyond viewing the Iraq war as a strive for 'justice'. Perhaps weapons of mass destruction..? Anyway, again, nobody is talking about justice. We are talking about the rights of citizens to know what their government is up to. Should Saddam have been allowed to keep his torture secret and classified? The gassing of Kurds?

Should the Watergate scandal have been kept classified?

We're talking about the transparency of government, and you are bringing up arguments against punishing people.
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