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Topic Review (Newest First)
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| Feb 10th, 2003 02:21 PM | |||||
| The_Rorschach |
Hmmm Well, I'm not so sure about this "vision". Wouldn't you say that one of the key reasons our elected officials have become less responsible would be the lack of a civic responsibility in America? In other words, if our politicians are corrupt and immoral, isn't it more a reflection of a broad national problem as opposed to merely a governmental problem...? Thats pretty much exactly what I am trying to say, though perhaps I was too vague in doing so. I find myself looking at the system itself, as it is outlined, and finding it resplendent with neither mar nor imperfection, save that it is too weak to protect itself from abuse by those whom are supposed to be guarding it. A line of thinking which is. . .Distressing to say the least. On the note of immorality: Our leaders have ALWAYS been immoral, they've always cheated on their wives, hadchildren out of wedlock, have been alcoholics, Jefferson was TERRIBLE with his personal finances, etc. etc. The moral lapses of past presidents do exist, but for the majority, they were deviances from the norm for otherwise virtuous individuals. Taft and Grant ran under campaigns riddled with corruption, using their time in office to improve their own lives rather than the condition of their country but they were the exceptions, not the rule. In regards to Jefferson, perhaps I am merely keeping my head in the sand, but I disregard many of the 'revisionist' findings which have suddenly come to light. The Declaration of Independance disappeared for some forty years after it was written before resurfacing, and only a few weeks ago was the personal finance log of Congress found during renovations. . .With our nations history as badly scattered as it is, I place little trust in that which seems overly extraordinary. Like I have said, government corruption, as well as immorality, has ALWAYS been an issue. So perhaps the important question may be does this system cultivate and ENCOURAGE such immorality and corruption....? That really is the question. I believe I referred to this in a past E-Mail, but the Federalist Papers were written under the assumption than man is inherently amoral. Many of Publius' arguments seem to rest on the foundation of a darkened and untrustworthy world. For him, nothing could be more obvious than that “men are ambitious, vindictive, and rapacious.” Since Publius' work is the dominate interpretation of the Consitutition I believe we can safely say that the system was designed neither to cultivate nor encourage corruption and immorality, but to guard against by making assurances that any liberties taken above and beyond one's prescribed power would infringe upon anothers thus creating such contention noone could help but act within their limitations. GodDAMN, it's tough to hold out hope. I agreed with much of what you said, but nothing struck a chord quite so well as you're conclusive statement. |
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| Feb 10th, 2003 01:05 PM | |||||
| sspadowsky |
It's hard not to lose faith in what this country could be. I've been teetering back and forth between deep concern and total apathy for this country. Part of me believes this country was bought and paid for by the corporations a long time ago. Part of me believes that this fuckin' whiny, self-absorbed consumer culture of ours has spread like cancer, and we're beyond hope of ever looking away from our big-screens long enough to realize how close this country is to being completely fucked. I wonder if too many people have the mentality of "I'm living comfortably, ergo, everyone is living comfortably. Everything is okey-dokey. I'm gonna go play the back nine at the country club now. Gee, our president's doing a swell job." The other part of me sees things like a lot of the folks who post here, sees the Daily Show and the Onion and other sources of satire, and it they all make me think, "Hey, maybe the American public hasn't been completely brainwashed into thinking that a Fox 'news' poll that surveyed 500 people is representative of the entire country. Maybe there is hope. Possibly, just MAYBE, the whole of the American populace is not eagerly gobbling up the plates of bullshit served to them by the mainstream news outlets." I'm trying really hard to hold on to that. Now, Ror, I want to address your question. I think the problem is what happens to people once they get a taste of power. Our elected officials were once plain old Americans. They were brought up in American communities, churches, schools, etc. It's not like people instantly become malicious or irresponsible once they decide to run for public office. As they rise through the ranks, people and corporations throw money at them to cater to their interests. And who doesn't like free money? My contention is that the truly good-hearted, concerned people who want to run for office and do some positive things for this country A) Get bought, B) Get laughed out of the race by the Dems and Republicans, or C) Get killed. GodDAMN, it's tough o hold out hope. ________ Lesbian Cam |
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| Feb 10th, 2003 12:33 PM | |||||
| ranxer |
Im with Carni, Corporations have corrupted our democracy. John McCain aint no anti-corruption champion.  a few amendments COULD fix our country. But its not likely. What we need is a particapatory democracy. I'm also going to side with Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Micheal Perenti and many others that agree that we've been running on autopilot too long. The people HAVE stepped back and let things get out of hand.. Grassroots movements are my only hope. we only have a little time left before fascism takes over this country. 
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| Feb 10th, 2003 12:11 PM | |||||
| El Blanco |
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| Feb 9th, 2003 10:28 PM | |||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Re: America Revisited Hey Ror, this is my first time reading this thread, so I'm going to respond directly to your initial post. Quote:
On the note of immorality: Our leaders have ALWAYS been immoral, they've always cheated on their wives, hadchildren out of wedlock, have been alcoholics, Jefferson was TERRIBLE with his personal finances, etc. etc. So, is this really simply a modern issue...? Quote:
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| Feb 9th, 2003 05:44 PM | |||||
| The_Rorschach |
The same opportunity? No. An oppotunity? Hell, yes. You just described my two best friends and they are doing very well. It all depends on the parent and the child. An opportunity is what you make of it. Yes well, he didn't ask for just an oppourtunity. He stated equal education. Granted most politicians today don't like the idea of an educated populace, understandably it does create certain complications, however, since the future is in their hands I believe they should be provided for. Keeping the books current, the faculty maintained and the tech level where it should be is not too much to ask for from a country of our world standing. As to the Constitution, it is quite fluid, and while it was not made to encompass the corporate sector, neither does it include precedent for Executive Orders (first one was passed by Lincoln) or the Supreme Court deciding whether or not a law is Constitutional yet they have been adapted into the system nonetheless. |
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| Feb 7th, 2003 12:24 AM | |||||
| Malevolent |
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| Feb 7th, 2003 12:24 AM | |||||
| sadie |
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| Feb 7th, 2003 12:20 AM | |||||
| El Blanco |
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And you act like we can just throw in an Ammendment whenever we like. |
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| Feb 7th, 2003 12:01 AM | |||||
| Malevolent |
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| Feb 6th, 2003 09:58 PM | |||||
| El Blanco |
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| Feb 6th, 2003 02:34 PM | |||||
| The_Rorschach |
Hmmmm GA: Do you honestly think a two party system can adequately represent the interests of such a large, diverse population? Yes and no. I understand the limitations you see in the system, but as I see it, every politician - regardless of affiliation - serves only themselves. Their political ideaologies, even within the same party, can alter dramatically between individuals. I'm sure we can all agree not all Republicans are like Trent Lott, nor are all Democrats like Joe Lieberman. Appointer: Our Constitution is based in part on English common law, and the reforms stemming from the Glorious Revolution in England (and the ideas arising from nasty times preceding that), but it was largely considered the great Enlightment experiment since Jefferson et al. were blazing new trails. And they did fail, initially, with the Articles of Confederation. Keep searching, you're on the right track but not taking it far enough. As for the Articles of Confederation. . .In the Latin, Confederation literally translates as 'To Come Together In A League.' The Articles were a rough treaty joining independant States together against Britain, it was limited in scope and expected longevity and meant to be so - At least, this is how I understand them. The Constitution was radically different that anything preceeding it because unlike other governmental outlines previous, its goal was not to give power, but to limit the power of each office as much as possible resulting in a governmental gridlock which would - by necessecity - leave the real power in the hands of individuals as the government would be too cumbersome and slow to deal with issues quickly and efficiently. Carnivore: All of our leaders should be elected by popular vote. Something must be done to limit the ability of corporations to control both politicians and the media. Equal education opportunities must be available to all. I think a few amendments to the Constituton can get the United States back on track. I agree with you totally, as well as Blanco who saw apathy as the greatest danger to our republic. The cornerstone of our nation is its independant judiciary, and I believe it is just as important that our government officials be independant of economic ties as well. After witness the favouritism shown to Enron - California's Energy Crisis - and Halliburton - Federal/Military Contracts - it is of the utmost importance that we do now allow an elitist and inbred corporate web to ensnare our political system. In regards to the popular vote, I would support that as well. The Electorial College has shown itself ready to betray the will of the people in favour of supporting the two part system as it stands now. Perot, though gaining 30% of the popular vote at one point, recieved not one Electoral Vote, nor did Nader who recieved roughly 10% (I think, couldn't remember if it was 5 or 15 so I averaged the two  ). And yet, when less than half of the total nation turns out to vote, will any candidate truly reflect the will of the people?
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| Feb 6th, 2003 02:09 AM | |||||
| kinot | A few amendments? One is pretty much enough to straighten anything up | ||||
| Feb 6th, 2003 01:06 AM | |||||
| Carnivore | All of our leaders should be elected by popular vote. Something must be done to limit the ability of corporations to control both politicians and the media. Equal education opportunities must be available to all. I think a few amendments to the Constituton can get the United States back on track. | ||||
| Feb 5th, 2003 11:46 PM | |||||
| theapportioner |
Our Constitution is based in part on English common law, and the reforms stemming from the Glorious Revolution in England (and the ideas arising from nasty times preceding that), but it was largely considered the great Enlightment experiment since Jefferson et al. were blazing new trails. And they did fail, initially, with the Articles of Confederation. Parliamentary governments, I've noticed, tend to be more vigorous democracies. I think it's more than just cultural differences. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 11:15 PM | |||||
| El Blanco |
Why would you want this? Also, you realize many of ththings in our constitution were taking from European governments, right? |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 10:43 PM | |||||
| theapportioner | I'm in favor of ditching the constitution completely and going for a parliamentary government. | ||||
| Feb 5th, 2003 10:41 PM | |||||
| El Blanco |
You mean change isn't easy? It takes a long time? Holy shit! Thats another problem. We demand instant gratifacation. Guess what, folks. Anything worth accomplishing takes some sacrifice and time. We talk a great game but no one ever wants to get their hands dirty. And it all comes dow to.....................apathy. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 10:25 PM | |||||
| Baalzamon |
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People no longer feel that they can make a difference. They see people protesting on T.V. about various issues, and everyone ignores them, and the media shruggs them off as extremeists, or whatever. The point is that nothing seems to change, and that is very damaging to the moral of the voting public. If people could genuinely see that their opinions mattered, or at least had the potential to matter, then they would be more interested. If once in a while the powers that be would listen to different points of view and actually make it look like the people are being listened to and taken seriously, then things might change. The problem is twofold. it is the fault of "big government" for not listening and taking the people seriously, but it is just as much, if not more, the fault of the people for giving up hope rather than going out and raising hell about it the way they should. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 10:00 PM | |||||
| El Blanco |
Not really since most of those parties end up just compromising and getting mashed in with all the other parties. And yes, a two party system is tough on third parties, if the third party is trying to win. What most smart third party candidates try to do is make enough noise that people take notice and force the Big Two to address the issue he is trying to bring to light. Either that or just try to spoil an election. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 09:48 PM | |||||
| GAsux |
Hmmm Do you honestly think a two party system can adequately represent the interests of such a large, diverse population? Regardless of how well an occasional third party has been, the system is baised against it. They have done well in spite of the system, not because the system fostered their growth. One thing I appreciate about European legislatures is the wide range of parties and ideologies that are able to participate. Even if you're part of the smallest minority, you can claim to have some level of representation in your government. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 07:48 PM | |||||
| El Blanco |
Just because it is a two party system, doesn't mean only two parties survive. We have had several different parties hold power throughout our history. And it is certainly better than several hundred parties holding a coalition (Italy). I think the biggest threat to democracy is apathy. Whenever a government of the people for the people by the people is failing, I look at the people. What have we done or not done? You think a less than 40% voter turn out at the last presidential election encourages our leaders to look out for everyone? |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 07:30 PM | |||||
| GAsux |
Yeah well.... Says you. I say the perfect union must involve Rebecca Stamos. Anyway, I think there are some system flaws. It's biased towards the two party system and the entire campaign process is in need of some serious attention. In my opinion anyway. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 07:22 PM | |||||
| The_Rorschach |
Eh -What is a 'perfect Union'? The United States of America is known, traditionally and historically, as The Union. Those whom drafted the Constitution realized a perfect form of government would never be possible, government itself is at best a necessary evil which imposes itself upon the rights of men, but were striving to make the best of it as they could, hence striving towards a more perfect union. |
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| Feb 5th, 2003 07:09 PM | |||||
| GAsux |
A more perfect union... 
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