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Feb 24th, 2004 10:16 AM

Zhukov

Hello? Hello? Where are you OA? On another planet? Who mentioned property? IF you are vaugely refering to the term "the abolishment of private property", then realise that in the Marxist sense the term refers to the means of production.

If you meant that shareholders own parts of the company, then yeah... so? Your point? Hello?

If you are insinuating that a worker owning stock n the company he works for means he is a capitalist, then ...no. They are a produer/woker etc primarily, and perhaps only own an absolutely miniscule part of the company. As the percentage of the company owned by an individual increases, so to you might find work decreases. Also, someone who owns 1%, is less in a position of power compared to someone who owns anywhere from 51-99%. The minor stock holder makes little impact to the major holder.

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He is trying to imply that beinga good Catholic requires absolutly subscribing to one particualr economic system. The problem is, a good Catholic should be aware just how above and beyond God is from such human trivalties as economics and resource management

No, he is saying that in the real world, the teachings of love thy neighbour; the ten commandments and all that other religious nonsense, does not matter one bit.

" If a religion cannot enforce its moral teachings upon its votaries it has as little relation to actual life as the pre-election promises of a politician have to legislation."

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a good Catholic should be aware just how above and beyond God is from such human trivalties as economics and resource management.

That's all well and good Blan, but God is so far above such trivialities that he is nowhere to be seen. Meanwhile the day to day work and life is so close to His subjects that they can't escape it. if you know whatt I mean ...

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So? Did that money do good for the community? My parish named the high school auditorium after a family that did a ton of volunteer work. It wasn't the money, it was the giving.

It was for a new altar and some such - absolutely useless, then

. I already said "I think what he said was a bit of a stretch", but don't say that by giving lots of money to a parish you wont at least gain favour. Volunteer work isnt money.

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How many leaders of industry are Catholic or truly religious?

None!

that is the whole point!

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What? How do you figure that? Do you know what capitalism is?

No, what's capitalism?

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The concept of "dog eat dog" means fiercly going against your competitors (ie the other big bussiness men). This does affect your relations with customers, but it usually means giving them the best goods or service at the most reasonable price.

Soooo.... The buiinesman will be wishing the best of luck to all other bsisness men? IE his competitors? IE his 'neighbours'? 'Do unto others' does not apply to reality. "Lets have a hostile takeover!" "No, lets help our struggling competitors into this tough market!"

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Second, what if he uses the money he earns to do good like build hospitals and schools?

More like cocaine and ferraris

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So, even though they are the exact opposite of all your experiences, you still believe what that mook stereotyped as real socialists?

Who says it is going againt my experiences? My experiences show that I am the only wanker. Eveyone else is A OK.

Perndog, every socialist I know is at least semi-intelligent. Yes, it does smack of self righteousnes. We have people like Albert Einstein and you have Vince. That's just the way it is, you sub human.

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Zuk, define capitalism so we can correct you.

It certainly isn't "resource managment". Capitalism is the dictatorship of the capitalists. A capitalist is someone who owns the means of prouction and buys workers' labour power with the aim of prodcing profit. i.e Capital.

Feb 22nd, 2004 06:59 PM

Perndog

Oh, and "cleaner of speech and thought" smacks of self-righteousness. Like someone who never swears and never looks at pornography is automatically better than someone who does. Bullshit.

Feb 22nd, 2004 02:00 PM

El Blanco

Zuk, define capitalism so we can correct you.

Feb 22nd, 2004 01:44 PM

The One and Only...

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Originally Posted by Zhukov

Evil greedy owners. How can a corporation be a capitalist??!! CEO's are just corporate stooges most of the time.

I'm guessing El Blancos father is MIDDLE CLASS. i.e he owns a business, maybe employs some people but still works there himsef. Petty bourgeoise!

Hello? Everyone is an owner of property. Stocks are property as well.

Feb 22nd, 2004 01:00 PM

El Blanco

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Originally Posted by Zhukov

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Socialism and Capitalism are economic systems. What exactly does God want with money? It is a human concept used to manage resources.

I can just easily say God is a capitalist, but that is also retarded.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

then, you don't get the article. He is trying to imply that beinga good Catholic requires absolutly subscribing to one particualr economic system. The problem is, a good Catholic should be aware just how above and beyond God is from such human trivalties as economics and resource management.

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Ya, because Sunday when I go to Church we are going to be praying to Andrew Carnegie

I think what he said was a bit of a stretch, although my old church has a garden named after a man who donated alot of money.

So? Did that money do good for the community? My parish named the high school auditorium after a family that did a ton of volunteer work. It wasn't the money, it was the giving.

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Because lawyers charge more.

Not nessicarily 'paying' just wth money. Your average capitalist spends more time with a lawyer than a priest, maybe sees the lawyer as more important too.

How many leaders of industry are Catholic or truly religious? Also, we live in a secular society with secular laws. While a priest does have his role in community and it is very important, tax laws and such are also very prominent in the world and require a great deal of work and understanding.

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Small bussines owners aren't capitalists.

What? How do you figure that? Do you know what capitalism is?

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Good will within the community is one thing - good will in the business community is another. It is a dog eat dog world!

See, that was just a bunch of rhetoric and you even fucked up its meaning. The concept of "dog eat dog" means fiercly going against your competitors (ie the other big bussiness men). This does affect your relations with customers, but it usually means giving them the best goods or service at the most reasonable price.

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How long do you think a CEO of Coca cola or somewhere would last if he decided to give away all the companys money and follow Jesus?

I don't know. Its not his money to give away, first of all. Second, what if he uses the money he earns to do good like build hospitals and schools?

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What the hell? Ever been in a Socialist party? Universities apparantly being packed with hippies etc is one thing, that doesn't mean they all go down to the local resistance centre after school. There are five communists at my Uni.

Ive thought about it, and I would say that there is a higher percenage of "devoted husbands" and people "cleaner in speech and thought " etc in socialist parties. This of course does not iclude me, as I am a criminal and a snide little urchin.

So, even though they are the exact opposite of all your experiences, you still believe what that mook stereotyped as real socialists?

I'm not saying if its true one way or another, but to say that all socialists are autmoatically of higher moral charecter is blindingly stupid.

That is based on the person, not the economic beliefs they are flaunting this week.

Feb 22nd, 2004 12:52 PM

Brandon

Christianity and Socialism go hand in hand. It always seemed like a tremendous contradiction when the Republicans became the "party of Jesus," since most of them are completely opposed to any sort of wealth redistribution.

EDIT: I can't say for sure that Jesus would have been a socialist, of course, but I strongly doubt he'd have been a laissez-faire capitalist.

At any rate, I don't support Christianity or Socialism, so.. whatever.

Feb 22nd, 2004 12:48 PM

Zhukov

Feb 22nd, 2004 12:40 PM

The One and Only...

I'm convinced that Zhukov lacks any knowledge of what he's talking about.

Who are the capitalists, Zhukov? Evil greedy CEOs of evil greedy corporations?

Feb 22nd, 2004 11:54 AM

Zhukov

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I have no idea what you are trying to say.

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Ya, because Sunday when I go to Church we are going to be praying to Andrew Carnegie

I think what he said was a bit of a stretch, although my old church has a garden named after a man who donated alot of money.

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Because lawyers charge more.

Not nessicarily 'paying' just wth money. Your average capitalist spends more time with a lawyer than a priest, maybe sees the lawyer as more important too.

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I'd like to introduce you to my dad. He ran his own small bussiness for years based on the "Love thy neighbor" concept.

Small bussines owners aren't capitalists.

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Or his clients would appreciate the treatment and provide him with repeat bussiness. Most bussiness owners understand the value of building good will in the community.

Good will within the community is one thing - good will in the business community is another. It is a dog eat dog world!

How long do you think a CEO of Coca cola or somewhere would last if he decided to give away all the companys money and follow Jesus?

What the hell? Ever been in a Socialist party? Universities apparantly being packed with hippies etc is one thing, that doesn't mean they all go down to the local resistance centre after school. There are five communists at my Uni.

Ive thought about it, and I would say that there is a higher percenage of "devoted husbands" and people "cleaner in speech and thought " etc in socialist parties. This of course does not iclude me, as I am a criminal and a snide little urchin.

Feb 21st, 2004 12:44 AM

El Blanco

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we know that the man who never set foot in a church in his lifetime will, if he is rich, be more honored by Christian society than the poor man who goes to church every Sunday, and says his prayers morning and evening;

Ya, because Sunday when I go to Church we are going to be praying to Andrew Carnegie

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we know that the capitalists of all religions pay more for the service of a good lawyer to keep them out of the clutches of the law than for the services of a good priest to keep them out of the clutches of the devil;

Because lawyers charge more.

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and we never heard a capitalist, who, in his business, respected the Sermon on the Mount as much as he did the decisions of the Supreme Court.

That is such a generalization. Is this satire? It must be a joke. Is this some lost work of Mark Twain? Because, if not and you believe that bullshit, I'd like to introduce you to my dad. He ran his own small bussiness for years based on the "Love thy neighbor" concept.

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We know that Christianity teaches us to love our neighbour as ourselves, but we also know that if a capitalist attempted to run his business upon that plan his relatives would have no difficulty in getting lawyers, judges and physicians to declare him incompetent to conduct his affairs in the business world.

Or his clients would appreciate the treatment and provide him with repeat bussiness. Most bussiness owners understand the value of building good will in the community.

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An Irish Catholic joins the Socialist movement. He finds that as a rule the Socialist men and women are better educated than their fellows; he finds that they are immensely cleaner in speech and thought than are the adherents of capitalism in the same class; that they are devoted husbands and loyal wives, loving and cheerful fathers and mothers, skilful and industrious workers in the shops and office, and that although poor and needy as a rule, yet that they continually bleed themselves to support their cause, and give up for Socialism what many others spend in the saloon.

He finds that a drunken Socialist is as rare as a white blackbird, and that a Socialist of criminal tendencies is such a rare avis that when one is found the public press heralds it forth as a great discovery.

What the hell? Ever been to a university campus? I realize this was written 95 years ago, but even they had their version of beatniks. If embracing socialism means swearing off booze, I think I finally get why that worldwide worker revolution never happened.

Feb 20th, 2004 02:00 PM

Perndog

I'm all for keeping Socialists in the Christian church. Put all of the enemies in the same camp, I say.

Feb 20th, 2004 11:35 AM

Zhukov

Workshop Talks

But Socialism is against religion. I can't be a Socialist and be a Christian.

O, quit your fooling! That talk is all right for those who know nothing of the relations between capital and labour, or are innocent of any knowledge of the processes of modern industry, or imagine that men, in their daily struggles for bread or fortunes, are governed by the Sermon on the Mount.

But between workingmen that talk is absurd. We know that Socialism bears upon daily life in the workshop, and that religion does not; we know that the man who never set foot in a church in his lifetime will, if he is rich, be more honored by Christian society than the poor man who goes to church every Sunday, and says his prayers morning and evening; we know that the capitalists of all religions pay more for the service of a good lawyer to keep them out of the clutches of the law than for the services of a good priest to keep them out of the clutches of the devil; and we never heard a capitalist, who, in his business, respected the Sermon on the Mount as much as he did the decisions of the Supreme Court.

These things we know. We also know that neither capitalist nor worker can practice the moral precepts of religion, and without its moral precepts a religion is simply a sham. If a religion cannot enforce its moral teachings upon its votaries it has as little relation to actual life as the pre-election promises of a politician have to legislation.

We know that Christianity teaches us to love our neighbour as ourselves, but we also know that if a capitalist attempted to run his business upon that plan his relatives would have no difficulty in getting lawyers, judges and physicians to declare him incompetent to conduct his affairs in the business world.

He would not be half as certain of reaching Heaven in the next world as he would be of getting into the "bughouse" in this.

And, as for the worker. Well, in the fall of 1908, the New York World printed an advertisement for a teamster in Brooklyn, wages to be $12 per week. Over 700 applicants responded. Now, could each of these men love their neighbours in that line of hungry competitors for that pitiful wage?

As each man stood in line in that awful parade of misery could he pray for his neighbour to get the job, and could he be expected to follow up his prayer by giving up his chance, and so making certain the prolongation of the misery of his wife and little ones?

No, my friend, Socialism is a bread and butter question. It is a question of the stomach; it is going to be settled in the factories, mines and ballot boxes of this country and is not going to be settled at the altar or in the church.

This is what our well-fed friends call a "base, material standpoint," but remember that beauty and genius and art and poetry and all the finer efflorescences of the higher nature of man can only be realised in all their completeness upon the material basis of a healthy body, that not only an army but the whole human race marches upon its stomach, and then you will grasp the full wisdom of our position.

That the question to be settled by Socialism is the effect of private ownership of the means of production upon the well-being of the race; that we are determined to have a straight fight upon the question between those who believe that such private ownership is destructive of human well-being and those who believe it to be beneficial, that as men of all religions and of none are in the ranks of the capitalists, and men of all religions and of none are on the side of the workers the attempt to make religion an issue in the question is an intrusion, an impertinence and an absurdity.

Personally I am opposed to any system wherein the capitalist is more powerful than God Almighty. You need not serve God unless you like, and may refuse to serve Him and grow fat, prosperous and universally respected. But if you refuse to serve the capitalist your doom is sealed; misery and poverty and public odium await you.

No worker is compelled to enter a church and to serve God; every worker is compelled to enter the employment of a capitalist and serve him.

As Socialists we are concerned to free mankind from the servitude forced upon them as a necessity of their life; we propose to allow the question of all kinds of service voluntarily rendered to be settled by the emancipated human race of the future.

I do not deny that Socialists often leave the church. But why do they do so? Is their defection from the church a result of our attitude towards religion; or is it the result of the attitude of the church and its ministers towards Socialism?

Let us take a case in point, one of those cases that are being paralleled every day in our midst. An Irish Catholic joins the Socialist movement. He finds that as a rule the Socialist men and women are better educated than their fellows; he finds that they are immensely cleaner in speech and thought than are the adherents of capitalism in the same class; that they are devoted husbands and loyal wives, loving and cheerful fathers and mothers, skilful and industrious workers in the shops and office, and that although poor and needy as a rule, yet that they continually bleed themselves to support their cause, and give up for Socialism what many others spend in the saloon.

He finds that a drunken Socialist is as rare as a white blackbird, and that a Socialist of criminal tendencies is such a rare avis that when one is found the public press heralds it forth as a great discovery.

Democratic and republican jailbirds are so common that the public press do not regard their existence as "news" to anybody, nor yet does the public press think it necessary to say that certain criminals belong to the Protestant or Catholic religions. That is nothing unusual, and therefore not worth printing. But a criminal Socialist - that would be news indeed!

Our Irish Catholic Socialist gradually begins to notice these things. He looks around and he finds the press full of reports of crimes, murders, robberies, bank swindlers, forgeries, debauches, gambling transactions, and midnight orgies in which the most revolting indecencies are perpetrated. He investigates and he discovers that the perpetrators of these crimes were respectable capitalists, pillars of society, and red-hot enemies of Socialism, and that the dives in which the highest and the lowest meet together in a saturnalia of vice contribute a large proportion of the campaign funds of the capitalist political parties.

Some Sunday he goes to Mass as usual, and he finds that at Gospel the priest launches out into a political speech and tells the congregation that the honest, self-sacrificing, industrious, clean men and women, whom he calls "comrades" are a wicked, impious, dissolute sect, desiring to destroy the home, to distribute the earnings of the provident among the idle and lazy of the world, and reveling in all sorts of impure thoughts about women.

And as this Irish Catholic Socialist listens to this foul libel, what wonder if the hot blood of anger rushes to his face, and he begins to believe that the temple of God has itself been sold to the all-desecrating grasp of the capitalist?

While he is yet wondering what to think of the matter, he hears that his immortal soul will be lost if he fails to vote for capitalism, and he reflects that if he lined up with the brothel keepers, gambling house proprietors, race track swindlers, and white slave traders to vote the capitalist ticket, this same priest would tell him he was a good Catholic and loyal son of the church.

At such a juncture the Irish Catholic Socialist often rises up, goes out of the church and wipes its dust off his feet forever. Then we are told that Socialism took him away from the church. But did it? Was it not rather the horrible spectacle of a priest of God standing up in the Holy Presence lying about and slandering honest men and women, and helping to support polidcal parties whose campaign fund in every large city represents more bestiality than ever Sodom and Gomorrah knew?

These are the things that drive Socialists from the church, and the responsibility for every soul so lost lies upon those slanderers and not upon the Socialist movement.

- James Connoly 1909

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