| Apr 8th, 2004 01:03 AM |
| Zero Signal |
"I do however care about people who already hate vegetarianism and animal rights activists looking for shit to indict merely one organization with, without even pursuing a full picture, mind you."
I never said I hate vegetarianism. I hate the ones that tell me what I shouldn't eat and get in my face about it.
I never said I hate people would advocate animal rights. I hate the ones that are nutjobs about it and harm other people in the name of liberation.
I said that, what, three times? Do I need to say it again for you to get it?
Not my question.
Um. Yes, it was.
"Again, prove that one drop of that cash went to fire bombing clinics,"
If someone gives money to Al Qaeda, do you even need to question how it will be used? Giving money to a known and convicted arsonist and member of the ALF then saying that at least some of it doesn't go to carrying out acts of violence is just priceless. Open your eyes.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 11:51 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Yeah, I noticed that, too. Anyway......
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| Apr 7th, 2004 11:45 PM |
| Emu |
I was looking at it and it said you'd replied most recently, but every time I looked the last post on here was ziggytrix's. It wouldn't load page 2. It pissed me off.  It's all good now
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| Apr 7th, 2004 11:41 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
...?
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| Apr 7th, 2004 11:26 PM |
| Emu |
it says Kevin was the last person to respond to this thread, but it won't show up :/
edit: nevermind, there it goes
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| Apr 7th, 2004 11:03 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
"PETA does not endorse the physical assault of animal clinics, and "verbal" attacks means they argue their point with people, and challenge them on their assumptions, just as anyone else is free to do."
Talk about a non-denial denial. They give known arsonists money to continue their work and have a convicted felon as official orator.
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Again, prove that one drop of that cash went to fire bombing clinics, and as for their "official orator," what position ddoes he hold?? I wasn't familiar with PETA's poet laureate, he must hold a very important position in the organization...
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"So how, as you said, can PETA take a policy stance that argues nobody should ever own pets, but then advocate ownership via shelters? Answer: Compromise. They obiously realize that they can't tell everyone in the world that to support PETA you must free your dog. That would be retarded."
Newkirk's explicit words were "total animal liberation". She said that, not me. Unless she is using doubletalk, that sounds to me like letting them go.
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There's no doubletalk, just an unwillingness on your own part to use common sense. The people at PETA are smart enough to realize that just letting go of millions of domesticated pets would be stupid. They do however advocate buying from clinics as opposed to breeders, as well as private chains. Perhaps some members do have a "global emancipation of all domesticated animals," but that certainly isn't an active campaign. Baby steps, in their opinions I'm sure, are required. Once again, this is common for most interest group activism, nothing CrAzY or out of the ordinary here.
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"Right, and she's one person."
Correction. She is one person is a position of power in PETA and therefore and agent of their agenda, and engaging in an act that is contradictory to that agenda.
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Right, and allow me to educate you on how PETA works, since you certainly won't take the time to do it yourself. People in a town, city, county, or state can affiliate and/or start up a PETA chapter or club. On college campuses, they'd probably become a "SETA" chapter. Once they pay the cash and affiliate, they get access to speakers, materials, etc. (most of this stuff may in fact be free, I'm not certain). Nobody in "a position of power" has to sign off on anything, nobody "in a position of power" approves letting these people in.
As for her own personal hypocricy, I never said everyone within PETA was normal. I however, getting back to the point, would encourage you to look a little deeper than simply Penn and Teller's earth shattering expose on PETA.
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"So, Zero, what's your opinion on Planned Parenthood as a whole, and for that matter, the pro-choice movement?"
If women want the physical and psychological aberrations involved in having an abortion, then so be it. I don't approve of it, but I am not going to prevent someone from being able to do it.
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Not my question.
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"Zero Signal is treating it like gospel, and has sealed the book. That's b/c P&T merely pandered to what he already believes, he got excited, and rushed here to post it."
No, it just reinforced what I already see on PETA's own website.
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Which you clearly haven't actually looked at, because you're making baseless assumptions
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Trix
I always love it when Kevin gets worked up over a PETA bashing.
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Blah, blah, blah.....I don't care about PETA bashing. I do however care about people who already hate vegetarianism and animal rights activists looking for shit to indict merely one organization with, without even pursuing a full picture, mind you.
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I don't imagine anyone is going to be coming away with different feelings about PETA just cuz Penn & Teller made some cracks about em on their show. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but ZS wasn't a PETA supporter before watching the show, I'd wager.
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Bingo.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 02:17 PM |
| ziggytrix |
I always love it when Kevin gets worked up over a PETA bashing.
I don't imagine anyone is going to be coming away with different feelings about PETA just cuz Penn & Teller made some cracks about em on their show. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but ZS wasn't a PETA supporter before watching the show, I'd wager.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 10:36 AM |
| Zero Signal |
"PETA does not endorse the physical assault of animal clinics, and "verbal" attacks means they argue their point with people, and challenge them on their assumptions, just as anyone else is free to do."
Talk about a non-denial denial. They give known arsonists money to continue their work and have a convicted felon as official orator.
"So how, as you said, can PETA take a policy stance that argues nobody should ever own pets, but then advocate ownership via shelters? Answer: Compromise. They obiously realize that they can't tell everyone in the world that to support PETA you must free your dog. That would be retarded."
Newkirk's explicit words were "total animal liberation". She said that, not me. Unless she is using doubletalk, that sounds to me like letting them go.
"Right, and she's one person."
Correction. She is one person is a position of power in PETA and therefore and agent of their agenda, and engaging in an act that is contradictory to that agenda.
"So, Zero, what's your opinion on Planned Parenthood as a whole, and for that matter, the pro-choice movement?"
If women want the physical and psychological aberrations involved in having an abortion, then so be it. I don't approve of it, but I am not going to prevent someone from being able to do it.
"Zero Signal is treating it like gospel, and has sealed the book. That's b/c P&T merely pandered to what he already believes, he got excited, and rushed here to post it."
No, it just reinforced what I already see on PETA's own website.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 10:12 AM |
| Perndog |
I realize what's up with Zero Signal. But as you said, it raised some interesting points (I haven't seen it, personally, so I'll take your word for it). Thus, it's out of line to dismiss the issue just because a couple of well-known entertainers put it on television and to imply that being entertainers disqualifies them from credibility.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 09:57 AM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
They attack people and shelters (both verbally and physically) that euthanize animals and then they themselves turn around and do it. Look up hypocrite in the dictionary for once.
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Yeah, look up "passive" for me first.
PETA does not endorse the physical assault of animal clinics, and "verbal" attacks means they argue their point with people, and challenge them on their assumptions, just as anyone else is free to do. It's called free speech. Christ, get a thicker skin.
Out of the several thousand animals they take from shelters, as stated in the program, roughly 1/3 of those already destined to die animals are saved and provided with homes.
Look at their activist network, look at their "help puppies" campaign. They argue that people should get puppies from animal clinics, and not support private pet chains. This would be the best way to prevent massive euthanizing. So how, as you said, can PETA take a policy stance that argues nobody should ever own pets, but then advocate ownership via shelters? Answer: Compromise. They obiously realize that they can't tell everyone in the world that to support PETA you must free your dog. That would be retarded.
So Penn and Teller talk to members of PETA, observe what they do, and run the wackiest stuff they had (and no argument, you can find a lot of it within PETA). But what did they edit out? Did they choose to entertain and run the most sensational stuff, or did they choose to educate like you and Perndog seem to believe....?
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A member of their organization takes blood thinner.
They are opposed to all research on animals and the fruits of that research. Yet, she takes insulin derived from research on animals AND contains animal products.
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Right, and she's one person. What did Penn and Teller's research into the statewide PETA and SETA chapters find??? Wait, that analysis probably didn't make the final cut.
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Adolf Hitler was a painter, but does that overshadow the horrors that he orchestrated during World War 2? NO. Neither does Ray Coronado legitimate works overshadow the fact that he was convicting of fire-bombing a research lab and admitted to doing the same to 6 others.
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Wow. Just, wow. Margaret Sanger edited for, applauded, and often encouraged the the eugenic works of famous idiots like Francis Gaulton. Planned Parenthood, and all of it's parent organizations, often targeted poor, "negro" communities for establishing abortion clinics. Some of the things she advocated in "Pivot of Civilization" are so ignorant and rotten, that even Planned Parenthood steps away from them. So, Zero, what's your opinion on Planned Parenthood as a whole, and for that matter, the pro-choice movement? Certainly, some stupid comments made by Sanger must indict them all, right? Stupid, racist, and ignorant policies taken in the past must condemn them all, right?
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You are STILL avoiding my question of why their investigation into PETA is invalid just because of who they are and their profession. What do YOU do for a living and how is that anymore relevant to the subject that was being discussed. Oh, I forgot, IT'S NOT.
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Except for the fact that I was a vegetarian for 5 years, an animal rights activist, and worked with PETA organizations and branch organizations for years. So YES, I am far more qualified to speak on this then Penn and Teller. Now if I come on here claiming to know the secret to pulling a rabbit out of a hat, then we should defer to these gentlemen.
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Originally Posted by Perndog the contributor
If you're all for looking at the facts and being analytical, you need to stop bitching about how Penn and Teller are performers. They are also educated, intelligent, and politically active. It's fine to say that they don't know what they are talking about (which is still not a personal attack), but bringing their profession or character into it and assuming they couldn't possibly have a clue is stupid. So is pointing out that they were eating ribs during the show. Of course they're biased, otherwise they wouldn't have done a piece on PETA in the first place. Bias doesn't mean someone's wrong, only that you need to put extra effort into your analysis.
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They are entertainers, and while they raised some interesting debate points, they didn't say anything overly conclusive. Zero Signal is treating it like gospel, and has sealed the book. That's b/c P&T merely pandered to what he already believes, he got excited, and rushed here to post it.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 08:41 AM |
| AChimp |
When I think of Penn & Teller doing a documentary, I always imagine one of them just standing there and nodding. Maybe getting into some crazy background antics while the other keeps talking without noticing.
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| Apr 7th, 2004 12:01 AM |
| Zero Signal |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
And Kevin can't dispute the facts, so he attacks the sources. Good job.
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List the facts, jackass. They euthanize animals, and float their numbers. They've never lied about euthanizing animals, they are licensed to do so.
They attack people and shelters (both verbally and physically) that euthanize animals and then they themselves turn around and do it. Look up hypocrite in the dictionary for once.
A member of their organization takes blood thinner.
They are opposed to all research on animals and the fruits of that research. Yet, she takes insulin derived from research on animals AND contains animal products.
They have donated cash to a moron who has been "linked" to several fire bombings. He also, incidently, does a lot of legit work in the name of animal rights that he can not only be "linked" to, but very clearly DOES.
Adolf Hitler was a painter, but does that overshadow the horrors that he orchestrated during World War 2? NO. Neither does Ray Coronado legitimate works overshadow the fact that he was convicting of fire-bombing a research lab and admitted to doing the same to 6 others.
Some more? I addressed some of these in previous posts, too. I'm not going to get too serious about it though, because it's FUCKING PENN AND TELLER.
You are STILL avoiding my question of why their investigation into PETA is invalid just because of who they are and their profession. What do YOU do for a living and how is that anymore relevant to the subject that was being discussed. Oh, I forgot, IT'S NOT.
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Sounds like YOU are taking the medicine from PETA, and not in your mouth, either. I can look on PETA's website and see what kind of idiots they are. I don't need an anti-PETA site; PETA's does enough to show how ridiculous they are.
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I am not a member of PETA, for some obvious reasons, and I've never supported all of their tactics. But the kind of issue advocacy is not unlike that of other special interest groups. We don't see exclusive proof presented by Wayne Newton or Sigfried and Roy on these groups, because the cause that PETA represents bothers you, NOT so much the tactics. |
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| Apr 6th, 2004 10:03 PM |
| Perndog |
If you're all for looking at the facts and being analytical, you need to stop bitching about how Penn and Teller are performers. They are also educated, intelligent, and politically active. It's fine to say that they don't know what they are talking about (which is still not a personal attack), but bringing their profession or character into it and assuming they couldn't possibly have a clue is stupid. So is pointing out that they were eating ribs during the show. Of course they're biased, otherwise they wouldn't have done a piece on PETA in the first place. Bias doesn't mean someone's wrong, only that you need to put extra effort into your analysis.
But then, I work on stage too. So nothing I say is worth taking seriously. At least I make more money than you do.
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| Apr 6th, 2004 06:12 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
And Kevin can't dispute the facts, so he attacks the sources. Good job.
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List the facts, jackass. They euthanize animals, and float their numbers. They've never lied about euthanizing animals, they are licensed to do so.
A member of their organization takes blood thinner.
They have donated cash to a moron who has been "linked" to several fire bombings. He also, incidently, does a lot of legit work in the name of animal rights that he can not only be "linked" to, but very clearly DOES.
Some more? I addressed some of these in previous posts, too. I'm not going to get too serious about it though, because it's FUCKING PENN AND TELLER.
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Sounds like YOU are taking the medicine from PETA, and not in your mouth, either. I can look on PETA's website and see what kind of idiots they are. I don't need an anti-PETA site; PETA's does enough to show how ridiculous they are.
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I am not a member of PETA, for some obvious reasons, and I've never supported all of their tactics. But the kind of issue advocacy is not unlike that of other special interest groups. We don't see exclusive proof presented by Wayne Newton or Sigfried and Roy on these groups, because the cause that PETA represents bothers you, NOT so much the tactics.
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| Apr 6th, 2004 06:10 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
And Kevin can't dispute the facts, so he attacks the sources. Good job.
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List the facts, jackass. They euthanize animals, and float their numbers. They've never lied about euthanizing animals, they are licensed to do so.
A member of their organization takes blood thinner.
They have donated cash to a moron who has been "linked" to several fire bombings. He also, incidently, does a lot of legit work in the name of animal rights that he can not only be "linked" to, but very clearly DOES.
Some more? I addressed some of these in previous posts, too. I'm not going to get too serious about it though, because it's FUCKING PENN AND TELLER.
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Sounds like YOU are taking the medicine from PETA, and not in your mouth, either. I can look on PETA's website and see what kind of idiots they are. I don't need an anti-PETA site; PETA's does enough to show how ridiculous they are.
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I am not a member of PETA, for some obvious reasons, and I've never supported all of their tactics. But the kind of issue advocacy is not unlike that of other special interest groups. We don't see exclusive proof presented by Wayne Newton or Sigfried and Roy on these groups, because the cause that PETA represents bothers you, NOT so much the tactics.
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| Apr 6th, 2004 02:42 PM |
| Rez |
if the source isnt credible, how can it be trusted to present your "facts" with credibility? it's like trusting a rodeo clown with stock options.
that said, PETA sucks. the kinda bullshit its leaders have come up with and the stupid publicity whore antics they have done should drive any well-reasoned person away from ever associating with them.
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| Apr 6th, 2004 01:32 PM |
| Zero Signal |
And Kevin can't dispute the facts, so he attacks the sources. Good job.
Sounds like YOU are taking the medicine from PETA, and not in your mouth, either. I can look on PETA's website and see what kind of idiots they are. I don't need an anti-PETA site; PETA's does enough to show how ridiculous they are.
I do not hate animal rights activists IF THEY ARE CIVIL AND NOT WHACKJOBS AND FIREBOMB BUILDINGS.
Vegetarians DO NOT BOTHER ME, unless they are trying to tell me what I should eat and being dicks about it.
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| Apr 6th, 2004 01:22 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
I'm hearing what I want to hear, and then you prove yourself to be the clown that you are.
You know nothing about PETA, beyond what anti-PETA websites and fucking Penn and Teller tell you. You open wide, wait for the airplane, and take your medicine like a good drone.
The bottom line, as I already said, is that Zero Signal hates animal rights activists, and is bothered by vegetarians. So he comes to us with a "scathing!" critique by Penn and Teller, who might I add were eating ribs and other kinds of meat while they conducted this "factual analysis" on PETA. 
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| Apr 6th, 2004 01:11 PM |
| Zero Signal |
Forgive me, Jeanette X, it should have said "typical animal rights activist whackjobs".
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| Apr 6th, 2004 12:15 PM |
| da blob |
I had a very interesting collection of PETA quotes but I can't find them anymore - anyway they are WACKOS.
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| Apr 6th, 2004 11:02 AM |
| Jeanette X |
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
Typical animal rights activist ignorance and arrogance.
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Originally Posted by Zero Signal
This isn't about "people who choose to not eat meat and advocate for better animal rights". It's about PETA. Or did you miss that part?
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| Apr 5th, 2004 03:49 PM |
| Zero Signal |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
What facts are there to refute? Are you making the claim that PETA is a terrorist organization? (PETA supports terrorist oraganizations like the ALF). Donating cash to a guy who does a lot of legit advocacy work, and also happens to be a nut job, doesn't make PETA entirely evil, rotten, or as you said "full of hypocrites." (They donate tens of thousands of dollars to convicted arsonists and you want that to look like it's nothing.) You watched one ïnvestgative" show done by guys who make a living firing weapons at each other in Vegas (Really? I've only seen one? You mean I haven't read about them or heard news about them in other forms? Wow, you know so much of where I hear things. Amazing., and you're going to act like you've found a bombshell dossier on PETA. Please, screw you with your "ättack the messenger" crap.That seems to be all that you can do, Kevin. You can't refute what was said, so you just try to make them look as less legitamite as possible.
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It's about Zero Signal's claim that PETA is "full of hypocrites," because a member of their BOD takes blood thinner with animal parts in it. (And Newkirk is on record saying that they kill animals while at the same time they attack other people that do the exact same thing. The VP using insulin derived from animals and then saysing that she needs her life to fight for animals' rights is classic hypocrisy, too)This, clearly must mean that every PETA and SETA chapter that independently starts up at the grassroots level around the country are corrupt and "full of hypocrites." (No, what this clearly means is that you will make up anything that you want to hear and try to attribute that nonsense to someone else in an effort to discredit them.) What a surprise, people who claim righteous causes not living up to their claims. Next you're gonna try to tell me that sometimes people who fight for solid causes contradict themselves. This is too much.
So Las Vegas' own Penn & Teller, who I happen to like a lot, do ONE investigative look into PETA , tell a story from their perspective on PETA (You mean tell a story based on facts), and you rush to the boards in order to reaffirm your point that people who are animal rights activists, particularly within PETA, are rotten. Oh please! You are only hearing what you want to hear. I never said that NOR implied that. YOU are the one that keeps equated hating PETA as hating animal rights people in general. PETA itself is rotten. I feed bad for the people being duped into sending them money, especially pet owners, since PETA hates everyone that owns a pet and wants total animal liberation and will go to any extremes to see that realized.Please, shooting the messenger? He offed himself before he got here.....
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| Apr 5th, 2004 02:24 PM |
| Ant10708 |
PETA is in full support of having kids drink beer instead of milk so they can't be that bad.
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| Apr 5th, 2004 01:49 PM |
| Perndog |
I think the point is that PETA as an organization has some very absurd goals and principles, no matter how sane or decent any of its individual members are.
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| Apr 5th, 2004 12:58 PM |
| Protoclown |
PETA are either with or against us, and the evidence is overwhelming that they are against us. We need to strike them first for the safety and protection of America's meat-eating populace. BRING 'EM ON!
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