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Jan 2nd, 2006 03:05 PM
Abcdxxxx (Did some threads get combined here?)


Ziggy - You're right about it being anti-establishmentsajhdfdhf and that's obviously the appeal....but when a liberal movement embraces some form of racism towards a minority group I'm not sure what benefit there is to kid glove it. Thanks to some French theorists, and a few others they think it's their duty to take the Holocaust down a peg and question it... but then they deny it as rhetoric while taking on an entirely new rhetoric, it's like putting an anti-semite audio tape into a Teddy Ruxpin doll.

Holocaust denial, and hatred of Jews has become fashionable. It's on television, it's in best Selling books.... hate crimes are up.... It's important to talk about it for what it is. Not merely Anti-Israel, but Anti-Jewish.
Jan 2nd, 2006 02:07 PM
ziggytrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanette X
When you downplay the Holocaust, you strike a nerve with me. Accusations of exaggeration and manipulation are anti-Semetic, because you are accusing the majority of Jews of being liars.
It kinda pisses me off too. My grandad didn't risk life and limb at the Battle of the Bulge just to have historical revisionists say "oh that Hitler, he wasn't so bad..."

But I don't see it as anti-Semitism - more like antiestablishmentarianism, at least in Geggy's case.
Jan 2nd, 2006 12:12 PM
Jeanette X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geggy
It's just simple as that.
Vince always says that, Geggy.
Jan 2nd, 2006 05:56 AM
Ant10708 Geggy sounds like Michael Jackson.
Jan 2nd, 2006 02:42 AM
Abcdxxxx Quick. Ammend the Tshirt.

Fox lies (accept when it fits a Leftist conspiracy agenda!)

Insert Geggy link to David Duke essay with unimpeachable proof that Jews control the media.
Jan 2nd, 2006 02:38 AM
Abcdxxxx OKay nutfuck...perhaps if turds like yourself weren't so fixated on blaming Jews for the Holocause while simultaneously denying it ....not to mention embracing every single fucking conspiracy which blames Jews....and parroting centuries of blood libels that have left my people nearly extinct.... perhaps then I might be a little more apt to agree and talk about the bad Jews....but you haven't given me one reason to indulge you fuckhead. You're a worthless piece of shit who isn't interested in healthy debate or conversation...you hate...and you hate Jews....and the sad part is, you probably don't know any. One day you'll wake the fuck up and cringe for making these posts. Untill then, rot on your own spittle.
Jan 1st, 2006 11:56 PM
Geggy Criminals comes in all forms, colors and shapes, regardless of their race, nationality, religion, etc.

You're making it sound like the jewish people are different kind of lifeform who came to earth from their planet babylons long, long, long time ago and they're the most fabulous and angelic species when in fact, they're human just like the rest of us. It seems to me that you fell for their "anti-zionist=anti-semite" propaganda. They're even racists for using their own people as shields. The way they've provoked the holocaust is no different than the bush administration have been provoking 9/11.

One insight I've been speculating that one of the reasons the Israel spyring report was pulled was to avoid fueling anti-semitic behavoir towards the Jewish people. Afterall vast majority of people, like david dukes and yourself, are narrow-viewed and ignorant. Look what had happened after group of muslims were blamed for executing the 9/11 attacks. Therre were a hell lot of anger towards the muslim community mainly because of people like david dukes and yourself, who are narrow-viewed and ignorant. It's just simple as that.
Jan 1st, 2006 06:11 PM
Abcdxxxx Quick. Ammend the Tshirt.

Fox lies (accept when it fits a Leftist conspiracy agenda!)

Insert Geggy link to David Duke essay with unimpeachable proof that Jews control the media.
Jan 1st, 2006 04:38 PM
KevinTheOmnivore I just found it pretty funny that this guy wrote the article:
Jan 1st, 2006 04:36 PM
Geggy This thread has gotten interesting but I'm too hungover to argue...

But I will provide an article written back in dec 2001 which shows the fox news had performed an investigation on the Israeli spyring and put together a four part series of the "we report, you decide" israeli spyring in america, yet it was never broadcasted on tv. However the article provided four video clips of the report and I have no clue if the clips are working now. But I can find the clips that works somewhere on the net and will post it...

http://www.mediamonitors.net/justin18.html
Jan 1st, 2006 03:05 PM
Abcdxxxx What nation was Israel carved out of ?

"If a secular state had been formed in the area without displacing a few hundred thousand Palestinians and giving a specific race decisive self-determination we might not have the same problem on our hands. "

A) There are practically no Jews in any of the Islamic States, where old Jewish communities once existed. There are plenty of Muslims co-existing in peace within Israel.
B) If Israel wasn't set aside for Jews, the Mid-East would be ethnically cleansed of Jews entirely.
C) Be sure to use that same standard when productive communities in the WB and Gaza are uprooted for an Islamic Shari'a State called Palestine.

"it's everyone else in the region who was inconvenienced by it. "

Tough. I'm sorry the existance of Jews inconveniences them about as much as I'm sorry there are Blacks in the South. Check a timeline, there is no corralation betwen Arab terrorism and the birth of Israe. It's really a problem on the side of Arabs when they refuse to co-exist, live under Jewish rule, or even allow Jews to be citizens under their governments. So stop blaming the victims of such racism. You shouldn't think Jews are inconvenience anywhere.
Jan 1st, 2006 08:03 AM
davinxtk
Quote:
Cool. So why does an Islamic nation appeal to you? Or a Roman Catholic one? Are you just taking advantage of Israel being on the table for discussion or is there a double standard here?
I wouldn't quite call it taking advantage of anything; I'm not finding the conversation any easier just because we're discussing jews. It just happens to be the topic of conversation, and if the carving of an Islamic, Roman Catholic, Italian, White, Black, Japanese, Jamaican, etc. nation inside an existing one was up for discussion I'd be all over that too, not to worry.

Quote:
Israel is a secular nation. It's tiring that I have to repeat that so often. There is freedom of religion, and speech there, which is more then I can say for the rest of the region. 30% of the country are non-Jews. The majority of the country is secular and non-practicing.
I understand that, but the fact that it's well-known as the jewish state is what creates the problem. If a secular state had been formed in the area without displacing a few hundred thousand Palestinians and giving a specific race decisive self-determination we might not have the same problem on our hands.
Before you say it, I'll go ahead and admit that I'm just playing a 'what-if' game here. Maybe it would have caused more problems, maybe it would have caused twice the racial tensions, maybe the whole nation would have collapsed and been under Lebanese, Syrian, Egyptian or Jordanian control by now.

Quote:
Please stop. It's becoming less and less tolerable to hear people say Jews benefited from the genocide of the Holocaust, or that the idea of a Jewish Nation wouldn't have been legit without the guilt off WW2.
The issue to me isn't whether the jews benefitted from it, it's everyone else in the region who was inconvenienced by it. The fact that there has been almost nothing but war and terrorism since then with little (and only recent) hope of peace is, to me, proof enough that splitting it into pieces and saying "this part is jordan, this part is israel, this tiny chunk in the middle is what's left of palestine" at the very least draws borders between opposing forces where there formerly were none. Why do you have to have two governments in an area less than half the size of MAINE? The problem wasn't necessarily created when Israel was created, it simply took tangible form in the shape of a nation's borders. This argument goes back to when the League of Nations mandated jewish autonomy in Palestine.

Quote:
It's a matter of allowing Jews to co-exist and live as citizens in the Mid-East. It's not a matter of owing anyone anything. What a juvenile interpretation of things.
Abcdxxxx, that's exactly what it's not. It's allowing them to exist in the Middle East, sure, but it's not allowing or even asking them to co-exist. You're drawing a neat little partition and saying 'this land is yours, and you don't necessarily have to get along with anyone in the area to call it that.' Granted that's how the vast majority of the Middle East is run, that doesn't mean it's the most (or even the second most) agreeable solution.
Jan 1st, 2006 04:07 AM
Abcdxxxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
What I meant was that the arabs seem to owe them the land and americans the defense and funding
It's a matter of allowing Jews to co-exist and live as citizens in the Mid-East. It's not a matter of owing anyone anything. What a juvenile interpretation of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
the fact that Jews have said "next year in Jerusalem" since their place of worship got razed should have no bearing whatsoever on modern geopolitics.
Annnnnd it doesn't? ...but what it does do is prove that Jews have always had an interest in a nation of Israel. That it's not a product of the Holocaust, or of an evil invention of modern Zionism. It is proof that before idiots like you abused terminology like "geo-political" there were Jews in every part of the world talking about a Jewish homeland. That there motivation was religious doesn't undermine this.... your personal beliefs, or lack of them shouldn't cloud your judgement or ability to recognize an indigenous people. When Native American Indians reclaimed Alcatraz Island nobody used their seemingly quirky belief system as an excuse to delegitimize their claim to land that was once theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
(Which in fact was motivated by the sticky situation jews happened to be in aroundabouts 1948 when Mandate Palestine was cut up and later seized by Jordan and Israel).
Seized? Learn your basic Mid-East history.
1948? There were already 500,000 Jewish residents prior to WW2. The declarations which commited to the creation of two States (one for Jews, Israel, and one for Arabs, Jordan) pre-dated WW2.

Please stop. It's becoming less and less tolerable to hear people say Jews benefited from the genocide of the Holocaust, or that the idea of a Jewish Nation wouldn't have been legit without the guilt off WW2. As a result of generations of persecution, Jews now only make up 0.2% of the population with somewhere between 12-17 million in existance. All the Holocaust did was prove the undeniable immediacy of a Jewish State.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
I am not opposed to Jewish real-estate as much as I'm opposed to a specifically Jewish nation. ..... trying to create a nation based on a largely nomadic race simply because they happen to be the majority in the area causes a whole hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth,
Cool. So why does an Islamic nation appeal to you? Or a Roman Catholic one? Are you just taking advantage of Israel being on the table for discussion or is there a double standard here? Atheism is not a superior ideology once it too becomes oppressive with didactic policies pertaining to religious freedoms. Israel is a secular nation. It's tiring that I have to repeat that so often. There is freedom of religion, and speech there, which is more then I can say for the rest of the region. 30% of the country are non-Jews. The majority of the country is secular and non-practicing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
Yes, Israel is in fact a "chunk" of land in much the same way America, Brazil, and Russia are not. It is also in fact largely comprised of desert territory, and is right next to the Mediterranean, hence, by the beach.
It's a blip on the map. It doesn't put a dent in the vast expanse of land governed by Arab rulership. It's location is about as much of an incovenience as India is. Israel was never considered prime beach front property until Jews worked the land and created an agricultural miracle. That's the only reason why it's become a thorn in the side of the Arab League. If you sell someone a rusty broken down Ford, and then you see them whipping down the block in a refurbished shiny classic car, you can't say "look, they took my shiny classic car".
Dec 31st, 2005 10:50 PM
ItalianStereotype then they'd have six countries?
Dec 31st, 2005 09:01 PM
davinxtk Haha, no, I'm not identifying myself as an arab. I'm an american of mixed european blood, but I can understand where my meaning was miscommunicated. What I meant was that the arabs seem to owe them the land and americans the defense and funding the way things are going. To be smug and obnoxious about it, British colonization worked wonders for my people, generally speaking We've caused most of our own problems ever since.

Maybe I have too secular a mentality to even engage in conversation regarding a patch of land that the three faiths all hold sacred, but the fact that Jews have said "next year in Jerusalem" since their place of worship got razed should have no bearing whatsoever on modern geopolitics.

I also don't recall ever saying that every single jew left the region, either, my point is that the region simply was not solely theirs to rule anywhere remotely close to the creation of the Israeli state as we now know it. (Which in fact was motivated by the sticky situation jews happened to be in aroundabouts 1948 when Mandate Palestine was cut up and later seized by Jordan and Israel).

I am not opposed to Jewish real-estate as much as I'm opposed to a specifically Jewish nation. Maybe the heterogeneous nature of America has me a bit spoiled, but it seems trying to create a nation based on a largely nomadic race simply because they happen to be the majority in the area causes a whole hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth, as the past fifty-someodd years of wars and terroism have exhibited.

Quote:
Israel is a "Chunk" of land ? Have you looked at a map?

Do you realize how dumb you sound saying "DESERT right by the beach" ?
Yes, Israel is in fact a "chunk" of land in much the same way America, Brazil, and Russia are not. It is also in fact largely comprised of desert territory, and is right next to the Mediterranean, hence, by the beach. Please tell me where I'm wrong here, I'm missing your point.

Quote:
Because the Holocaust perpetrated by Hitler was the only time in history that Jews were the targets of such violence, clearly.
I'm not sure I understand where you were going with this, Kevin, but if the jews got a new country every time some wacko ruler decided he didn't want them around anymore...
Dec 31st, 2005 07:18 PM
Abcdxxxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
and what, because some ill-construed political agenda wiped out a sizable chunk of their people, we (or rather, a-rabs) owe the jews a chunk of the desert right by the beach? .

So the Final Solution was just "ill construed" ? Uh.

Israel is a "Chunk" of land ? Have you looked at a map?

Do you realize how dumb you sound saying "DESERT right by the beach" ?

Look, British colonization didn't exactly work so well for you either (you seem to be identifying yourself as an Arab?), and along with the Pan-Arabist movement, Jews saw the chance at a turning point in the Middle East, for self government. Jews have repeated the phrase "next year in Jerusalem" since the destruction of the Temple, since they became a diaspora. The Holocaust did not motivate Israel's creation. Nor did it motivate the carving of TransJordan...or are you just in opposition to Jewish real estate?


These are historical truths:

The Jewish population of Israel either never left, or were RETURNING to their native land. The first Aliyah was made up predominantly of Jews who never left the Mid-East.

There was an established Jewish soveriegn nation on that land around 1312 BCE, thousands of years before Islam existed, and it lasted 700 years until the King of Babylon tried to eradicate the Jews. Even then, Jews survived, and reestablished their autonomy again, this time under Persian rule from 539 BC untill roughly 63 CE. Arabs uprooted more Jews in 636 CE two millenia after the first the rise of a Jewish Homeland.

P.S. Fuck off with the "a-rab" bullshit. Jews aren't backwoods hicks you fuckface. An amazing Judeo-Arabic culture thrives in Israel, along with 1 million non-Jewish Arab citizens.
Dec 31st, 2005 03:35 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
and what, because some ill-construed political agenda wiped out a sizable chunk of their people, we (or rather, a-rabs) owe the jews a chunk of the desert right by the beach? i don't think so.
Because the Holocaust perpetrated by Hitler was the only time in history that Jews were the targets of such violence, clearly.

There have always been Jews in Israel/Mandate Palestine/whatever, btw.
Dec 31st, 2005 02:53 PM
davinxtk abcdxxxx, to say that israel re-establishes jewish sovereignty is a joke.
there hadn't been a sovereign jewish nation for how many years before WW2? the turks had palestine tapped. and what, because some ill-construed political agenda wiped out a sizable chunk of their people, we (or rather, a-rabs) owe the jews a chunk of the desert right by the beach? i don't think so.

and i for one certainly oppose any religion's supposed right to the "self-determination" of a geopolitical landscape, as well. i fully believe in the global seperation of church and state. your arguments up to this point have been entertaining to say the least, but now you're starting to sound like you're simply the anti-Gegg.
Dec 31st, 2005 12:08 AM
Abcdxxxx "opposition to zionists of any kind "

That's the problem. Any kind?

Are you in opposition to the Palestinian right to self determination too?! What about the right of Islamic rule over Mecca. Do you oppose that?
Dec 30th, 2005 10:08 PM
Jeanette X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geggy
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need to seperate the group of idiots who are anti-zionists for the reason of anti-semitism and the group who are anti-zionists for the reason of opposition to zionists of any kind and the israel's foreign policy itself. That's the point I was making. But ooook, i'll just dismiss the term "anti-zionism" for the respect of jews in majority all over the world.
Its not the anti-Zionism that's irritating me. Its the Holocaust revisionism. Sure the Zionists misused Holocaust imagery, I'll be the first to agree with that. But that doesn't mean that the Holocaust is neccessarily exaggerated. The Zionists didn't have to fucking exaggerate the Holocaust.

When you downplay the Holocaust, you strike a nerve with me. Accusations of exaggeration and manipulation are anti-Semetic, because you are accusing the majority of Jews of being liars.
Dec 30th, 2005 10:40 AM
KevinTheOmnivore nevermind. Keep at it, you're doing great!
Dec 30th, 2005 10:20 AM
Geggy Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we need to seperate the group of idiots who are anti-zionists for the reason of anti-semitism and the group who are anti-zionists for the reason of opposition to zionists of any kind and the israel's foreign policy itself. That's the point I was making. But ooook, i'll just dismiss the term "anti-zionism" for the respect of jews in majority all over the world.

Thanks a lot, anti-semites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
Geggy, the point you keep missing (and one I once failed to grasp) is that you are targeting certain "ideologists" within a movement that is terribly difficult to label or marginalize. I think you say zionist much the way we here in America say "neo-con," like it's one consistent ideology that a bunch of intellectuals decided to cook up and start think-tanks over.

I'm not arguing that Zionism is lacking in those things, but unlike neo-conservatism, it can't be so easily defined in that manner.
So to make it clear, if i'm anti-neocons, then i'm anti-us and a self-hating american...? Just a joke.
Dec 30th, 2005 09:54 AM
Abcdxxxx I'll repeat myself - Your "Anti-Zionism" theories are IDENTICAL to the blood libels which define Anti-Semitism.

Zionism just means you believe in the right of a self governed Jewish homeland. Nothing more, nothing less. It's another way to describe a type of patriotism formed around a diaspora, with the goal to RE-ESTABLISH Jewish soveriengty. That's it.

There will always be those who distort facts, and figure out a way in which to blame Jewish victims for the persecution they suffered, when targeted for no reason other then their Jewishness. ...and that's true wether we're talking about Cruxifictions, the Dreyfuss Affair, Pogroms in Russia, the Holocaust, the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab nations, or the Intifadas.
Dec 30th, 2005 09:45 AM
KevinTheOmnivore Geggy, the point you keep missing (and one I once failed to grasp) is that you are targeting certain "ideologists" within a movement that is terribly difficult to label or marginalize. I think you say zionist much the way we here in America say "neo-con," like it's one consistent ideology that a bunch of intellectuals decided to cook up and start think-tanks over.

I'm not arguing that Zionism is lacking in those things, but unlike neo-conservatism, it can't be so easily defined in that manner.
Dec 30th, 2005 05:06 AM
Geggy All I'm saying is anti-semitism is hatred of jews and anti-zionism is opposition to zionism and israeli policies. Would the term "opposition to zionism" sound better to you? Zionism is a group of ideologists like the nazi social movement, the black panthers and the overthrows only zionism is more acceptable to the political system and the society, not so much who are opposed to it. That's just the way I see it.

Just wondering why would the people write fictional stories in order to express their "opposition to zionism"? Is it a piece of propaganda created by islamic and the orthodox jews in hopes to form a large group of zionist opposers to bring down the zionists? If it's all really bull, I'll have to admit I was bit fooled by it.

I apologize for behaving like a holocaust denier...I have the tendency to question everything. 6 million sounds like an exaggeration.
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