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Topic Review (Newest First)
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| Jan 3rd, 2006 06:13 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
"How do you suppose people determine if a certain drug works or not? Randomized, double-blind clinical trials. If it's a vaccine or treatment, it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's grossly unethical to intentionally expose people to avian flu, just to see if it works. " Yea no shit that couldn't have anything to do with what I was saying at all. "This button might deactivate the bomb, but we're not sure. We'll just have to wait for it to go off before we test it, eh?" Jesus christ, you'd think i said, "Don't do anything" instead of, "Do more but be smart about it". Also, why would the vaccine kill people? Sure, it happens sometimes. But this is our super medical system with vaccines that prevent illnesses. PREVENT meaning TAKES CARE OF IT BEFORE IT HAPPENS. YOU DONT GIVE SOMEONE A VACCINE WHEN THEY ALREADY HAVE THE ILLNESS(that somtimes makes it worse I've heard). SO NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE MAKING A TEST RUN ON IT ANYWAYS, VACCINES ARE, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, DESIGNED TO BE INCAPABLE OF SPREADING INFECTION BECAUSE IT'S ESSENTIALLY A DEADLY FLU CRIPPLED SO THE BODY CAN EAT IT FASTER. CONGRATULATIONS FOR UNDERSTANDING HOW VACCINES WORK, YOU ARE TRULY THE SMARTEST OF THE SMARTEREST. "what you're talking about are general practicioners." General practicioners? What the hell else would I be talking about for mental institutions? If I or half of the world were rich enough to afford fancy panted specialist psychologists I don't think they would have so many problems in the first place. And how the hell does it being, "General practicioners" (the word that means MOST) alleviate my point of any validity? "Well, there's one or two fantastic psychologists who I know who are good and they completely balance out the half a million who became a psychologist because they needed a job". Where do most of the people who really need psychologists go? General practicioners. Thanks buddy. "Prisons aren't full of bad people because you know there's at least one person in there who's innocent! let's release all of them!" You need to get into politics. "well, then you went to see a shitty psychologist. it happens." Geez I wonder how often that happens with psychologists or just regular old doctors oh wait I already posted that information. "found that 36% of 815 consecutive patients on a general medical service of a university hospital had an iatrogenic illness" "If it does transfer to humans, then scientists will develop a vaccine. Most of this is hype." Vaccines are usually supposed to be extant before you get the illness-- that's generally the idea. That's why they made these vaccines of the flu it's supposed to mutate from, but they don't know if it will work or how well. Also, they are producing lots of tamiflu which they aren't exactly sure how will work. According to this thread, the original topic that everyone dances around like fuckfaces, was that tamiflu wasn't working and it was actually making things worse, or maybe just not contributing a helping hand. Hence this thread. I'm glad everyone is caught up now. Basically: Will the measures that the government is taking help at all? My position is, "Could something better be done?" with a side of, "Doctors are all liars". It doesn't really matter what you say, all medications have side-effects. When people are sick, they are given medicine. Medicine is 'generally' a downward spiral. I can't think of many people who took medicines who didn't end up taking more. There are of course exceptions to that, but I'm sure you get the drift. That's all I was saying, is that our medical community is fucking bullshit. We can save lives but we can't preserve them-- mostly because there's less money in that. |
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| Jan 3rd, 2006 03:33 PM | ||
| mozz |
No, it was a sarcastic joke. Because the didn't use the usual epidemic. 
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| Jan 3rd, 2006 03:32 PM | ||
| ItalianStereotype | you're saying that they made up the word pandemic? are you...are you stupid or something? | |
| Jan 3rd, 2006 12:24 PM | ||
| mozz | Avian flu will not be a "pandemic". They even made up a new word! If it does transfer to humans, then scientists will develop a vaccine. Most of this is hype. | |
| Dec 29th, 2005 01:19 PM | ||
| Rez |
well, then you went to see a shitty psychologist. it happens. it's not a creed of the community at large though to fuck around with people. again, the high school stories i used to hear of prozac and suicide are GP's who aren't specialized in this area and who are also super busy and have no checks placed upon them. anyway if her problems have any level of seriousness, she *probably* should be medicated. it sounds fun and exciting to say "fuck you guys" but some people at the end of the day need them. i'd check up on this ex once in awhile to see how things are. chemical imbalances dont "level off." if it wasnt for kahl i'd say that one of the dumber things i've heard. mom was normal for ten years before she went into a psychotic episode one summer and hallucinated her way through june and july. that was 3 years ago and she's still getting over it. |
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| Dec 29th, 2005 12:52 PM | ||
| davinxtk |
the list of things she was treated for before finally telling the medical community at large to go fuck themselves include anxiety, ptsd, clinical depression, and bipolar. my use of the phrase "throw medication at problems" was quite literal. and she stopped having those kinds of episodes after she stopped taking the pills. she's a functional human being now, on her own. |
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| Dec 29th, 2005 12:48 PM | ||
| glowbelly | paxil keeps me from wanting to hide in corners | |
| Dec 29th, 2005 12:35 PM | ||
| Rez |
what was she taking drugs for? was it anxiety? if she was trying zoloft or paxil variants then unfortunately there *is* a process where you must "sample" different kinds to find the one right for you. you can either get on the right one fairly quickly, like my girlfriend did, or you can hop from drug to drug and be thoroughly miserable until you get it right, like my mom or another friend. :/ FYI, "levelling out" doesn't equal "fine" if you're having "episodes" |
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| Dec 29th, 2005 12:14 PM | ||
| davinxtk |
Rez, kahl isn't talking about any specific general practitioner, nor is the problem limited to general practitioners alone. It's actually pretty damn common amongst the medical community to just throw medication at problems. I could probably walk into a physician's office and list off a few symptoms of ADD and walk out with a scrip for amphetamine salts. One of my ex-girlfriends went through three different pills (at the insistance of her parents) while we were dating, each of which made her a varying degree of looney, and when she finally decided to stop taking them she *gasp* actually levelled out on her own. She also had an episode which landed her in an institution of sorts for a brief period of time, where they gave her a couple of brand-spaking-new pills even though they were a by-the-week facility. They had this girl so incredibly convinced that something was wrong with her that she was taking pills that would then cause more problems for her, so they added a pill to treat those problems (incorrectly assuming that they were there in the first place and just hadn't surfaced yet) then switched to another pill that covered both of the old ones but made her completely apathetic to everything in her life (let's hear it for paxil!) and eventually it all just turned out that she was just a teenager who liked to whine and the pills are what kept it going for years. I don't believe much in medicine these days. |
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| Dec 28th, 2005 01:25 PM | ||
| Rez |
Quote:
now, people that know wtf they are doing actually do believe what derrida just told you. i have a whole closet full of conference pamphlets that from my drug-dealing psychologist friends if you would like a look. because since you are an idiot, your personal experiences amount to fuck all anyway. |
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| Dec 27th, 2005 11:13 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
Quote:
All those alternative medicines filled with lead, arsenic, or cyanide must have really fucked you up. |
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| Dec 27th, 2005 10:32 PM | ||
| davinxtk |
A pandemic isn't what you should be worried about you twit. That's why the word pisses me off. |
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| Dec 27th, 2005 04:29 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
Nope. Do the words, "Might not help with pandemic" piss you off? Because, personally, if there's an actual pandemic I'd prefer that everything possible to alleviate it was done rather than settling on what a few people who are looking out for their own interests have settled on. Basically, I'd like it if they went beyond vaccines that might not work and medicines that might not work and actually try to find things that will work. |
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| Dec 24th, 2005 01:55 AM | ||
| davinxtk | does the word pandemic piss anyone else off? | |
| Dec 22nd, 2005 04:46 PM | ||
| kahljorn | Same thing with the vaccine they are producing. "It might help" is basically all they are saying about it. But then, for a virus that doesn't even exist, what more can you say about it? | |
| Dec 22nd, 2005 03:56 PM | ||
| ziggytrix | I'm pretty damn sure we KNEW Tamiflu might not do shit for "avian flu". At least, that's what people were arguing on some NPR show months and months ago. | |
| Dec 22nd, 2005 02:21 PM | ||
| kahljorn | "millions of people will die if we don't make a drug to cure them! let's produce counterfeits for some free money guys it's a party!!!" | |
| Dec 22nd, 2005 12:20 PM | ||
| Geggy |
Yeah yeah call me a thread bumper for all you want...I just found this article related to this subject that i thought was interesting... Tamiflu found ineffective in bird flu treatment Updated Wed. Dec. 21 2005 11:08 PM ET CTV.ca News Staff The drug most of the world is counting on to prevent an avian flu pandemic may not be a failsafe defence, according to a New England Journal of Medicine report. The authors say they have found evidence the H5N1 virus can mutate into a form unaffected by Tamiflu -- rendering the world's ever-growing stockpiles of the drug ineffective if the mutated strain were to spread. According to the study, completed by Dr. Menno de Jong at the Hospital for Tropical Diseases in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, four out of eight avian flu patients who were given the medication died despite the treatment. This has many health care experts worried, since many predict bird flu will be the world's next major pandemic. Toronto infectious disease consultant Dr. Neil Rau says the study has serious implications. "Here you have the optimal situations, the right dose, the right duration, the right timing and administration and yet you have a bad outcome. That's not a good thing to see," Rau told CTV News. The drug's maker, Swiss firm Roche AG, said it's trying to figure out why it doesn't work in some patients, and is looking at whether severe cases should be given a higher dose or longer duration of treatment. Another article in the same journal cautions doctors against prescribing the drug for patients to stockpile. It says if not administered in a large enough dose, the chemical structure of Tamiflu could allow the virus to develop a resistance to the treatment. Dr. Allison McGeer thinks this should remind doctors and researchers to keep looking for new solutions. "There's one other drug, GlaxoSmithKline's Relenza, that is licensed that people are starting to talk about stockpiling," said McGeer, a Toronto infectious disease microbiologist. "There are also some other drugs in development. It really tells us that we need to move those drugs in development forward as fast as possible." While drugs such as Tamiflu don't cure bird flu, experts hope they will help reduce its severity if taken early enough. Bird flu has not yet appeared in North America and there is no proof that it can spread from person to person. But officials worry that if the virus mutates, it could become as contagious as the annual flu, but much more deadly. Since 2004, the H5N1 virus has killed at least 71 people in Asia. According to figures updated by the World Health Organization on Dec. 16, there have been at least 139 human cases, including 95 this year alone. More than 200 companies and governments have asked Roche if they can help manufacture Tamiflu. So far, Roche has allowed Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines to produce the drug without paying compensation. Tamiflu is not patent protected in those countries. Counterfeits Now, consumers are starting to have to deal with questions about Tamiflu's authenticity as well as its efficacy. The Canadian Press report that British authorities have identified 18 websites -- including two in Canada -- selling what they believe are counterfeit products sold under the Tamiflu brand. But Health Canada spokeswoman Jirina Vlk said the drug supplied by the Canadian sites in question is, in fact, Tamiflu, and not counterfeit medication. "(British authorities) may think it's counterfeit because it may not meet their labelling (standards), but they're legitimate Roche products," she said. The other sites the British authorities flagged are based in the U.S., Britain, Switzerland, Bahrain, the Channel Island of Jersey, Cyprus, Singapore and Malta. The British Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency launched the investigation over concerns that a shortage of the drug in the public market has fueled sales of bogus Tamiflu over the Internet. Test purchases were made from the sites and the drugs are being tested to determine if they are really Tamiflu. U.S. customs officials recently seized a shipment of counterfeit Tamiflu in San Francisco. Vlk said even though the Canadian drugs were not counterfeits, would-be Tamiflu buyers should beware. "Buying drugs from Internet pharmacies that do not provide a street address and telephone number can pose serious concerns. Patients have no way of knowing where the company is located, where it gets its drugs, what is in the drugs, and how to reach the pharmacy if there is a problem,'' she said. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads= |
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| Nov 28th, 2005 05:50 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
"Should it come as a surprise that this is also the viewpoint expressed by the psychiatric community at large?" lol. I happen to know from experience this isn't true at all. Do you know how the "psychiatric community" actually functions, especially as far as medicine goes? "Hmm, this and this sound like this, so we'll give them this pill and see if it helps.. if not we'll give them another!". Situations like that occur often. I happen to know for a fact that they prescribe medicine without knowing exactly what kind of a condition you have. I was prescribed three medicines: mood stablizer, anti-psychotic and an anti-depressant the first day I walked into a mental institution. Same thing has happened at others. Without having analyzed me for an extensive period how could they have possibly known? I'm sure they did it for "Everyone's safety" or something like that, but all the same it completely voids everything you just said. For the most part, psychiatry is a very loose science in the first place... how can you ever really know what's going on in a person's mind except externally? That right there is enough to support what I'm saying. I could walk to any mental health facility and get medicine right now without showing i have any real conditions. Just like I could goto a doctor and pretend I have extreme shoulder pains and get pain medication. I could also goto a grocery store and buy pain medication that has just as many side-effects as prescribed medicine. You're stupid. "Or are you saying that "safe" alternatives should be tried regardless of efficacy?" How do you know the efficacy, did you read the part where i said medicines are good in the right circumstances, and did you know that an improper diet can cause certain mental illnesses? Shit, not excercising or getting sun is known to cause depression. Those are alot safer than prescribing suicidal anti-suicide pills just because someone's lazy. I don't know why idiots like you always think everything I say is going to be true in every possible situation in a million universes, but it's annoying and trite. What are you, children? Learn to read, then maybe develop some kind of common sense to figure things out on your own, you mindless fuck. I don't hold any support to this claim, however: "Some have considered many of the more elaborate forms of mental illness to be iatrogenic, recently including dissociative identity disorder, formerly known as multiple personality disorder, and recovered memory syndrome. According to this belief, patients in therapy, who may initially have depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, respond to suggestion by the therapist by filling in the other expected symptoms of these disorders. This is why critics of dissociative identity disorder claim that the vast number of such case are found by just a few psychiatrists and psychologists." What exactly is your idea of a "Safe" alternative? Because my idea of it is to actually try to get a person healthy. Once a person's body is actually functioning properly they can usually manage to heal themselves. |
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| Nov 28th, 2005 03:41 PM | ||
| derrida |
Quote:
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| Nov 28th, 2005 03:24 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
lol. Yea, unlike scientologists, though, I feel medicines are in fact useful but should be used with caution and only after safer alternatives have been exhausted. |
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| Nov 28th, 2005 03:19 PM | ||
| ziggytrix |
Kahl, anti-medication rants are a slippery slope to Scientology. BEWARE! BEWARE! |
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| Nov 28th, 2005 03:01 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
By the way, I don't know if I mentioned this but... alot of anti-psychotics have these little booklets that come with them to explain how they work and their side-effects(all medicines do) and formost anti-psychotics inside the booklet it comes with it clearly states that they don't know how it works. That's right. Medicine that has an unknown effect being prescribed to people world-wide. I first learned about this in a mental institution from one of the nurses when I asked what the medicine they were giving to me did. Does that push any buttons at all? |
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| Nov 28th, 2005 02:54 PM | ||
| kahljorn |
I'm not saying that medicine doesn't help people, what I'm saying is that medicine is not necessarily productive to a healthy life. I'm fat, I'll get surgery or take pills to get skinny instead of exercise or stop eatting mcdonalds. Is that healthy? I'm depressed, I'll get pills instead of learning to deal with it. Is that healthy? My leg hurts sometimes, I'll take pills to make the pain go away. Is that healthy? Fuck, people need to learn to exercise and eat properly. I'm willing to bet that alot of health problems are caused by bad nutrition. Remember, the FDA is the FOOD and DRUG industry. "If a drug fucks up one in a million people, but helps the other 999,999 it is NOT worth getting all upset over it. Sucks to be that one person, but I'd rather have medicine than nothing at all." The ratio is a lot different than that, like I was saying there is a WORD for this. Go read up on it. The only reason I target the fda is because it is in charge of our "health" and yet they really take no action other than to prescribe medicine. Medicine that is taken daily is widely known to shorten your life. Sure, it has the capability to help some. Did I say it didn't? Most iatrogenic illnesses aren't necessarily caused by pills, but alot of them are. There was a study not long ago that certain (popular) anti-depressants actually INCREASED the chances of suicide in teenagers. I found that hilarious and quite ironic. Estrogens are known to cause blood clots that travel to the heart and kill people, and are also known to fuck up people's ovaries. My girlfriend was prescribed estrogen as a diabetic(which you aren't supposed to receive) and it made it so she has two, sometimes three, periods within one month. That is pretty iatrogenic, how could they miss the fact that she's diabetic? EVERY medicine has an adverse effect, whether it's just harming your liver or making you mentally retarded. If it didn't have an adverse effect, people wouldn't be taking it to try to get healthy by trying to rewire their insides. Fact is, medicines fuck with the functioning of the body and often it's chemical balance(which is, again, why people take it). That is a very delicate thing, and not really designed to be trifled with by people who don't understand everything about it. Would you prescribe someone medicine if you didn't understand everything about it and them? Just think on that. here's something to feast your eyes on, since it's a "Study" and all: Iatrogenesis is a major phenomenon, and a severe risk to patients. A study carried out in 1981 "found that 36% of 815 consecutive patients on a general medical service of a university hospital had an iatrogenic illness. In 9% of all persons admitted, the incident was considered major in that it threatened life or produced considerable disability. In 2% of the 815 patients, the iatrogenic illness was believed to contribute to the death of the patient. Exposure to drugs was a particularly important factor in determining which patients had complications." (Steel et al., 1981). In another study, done in 101 adverse iatrogenic events in 84 patients, "the most commonly reported process of care problems were inadequate evaluation of the patient (16.4%), failure to monitor or follow up (12.7%), and failure of the laboratory to perform a test (12.7%)." (Weingart et al., 2000). While those problems aren't necessarily directly related to the FDA or pills, it's easy to see how they could arise from them. I've heard before that in hawaii the health system is completely different. Rather than paying when you are sick, you pay when you are healthy. Why? Because the doctor's job is to keep you healthy, not to make you sick. I really like that idea. I'll post something later about nutrition, perhaps, because I find it more productive than medicine-- although I can still see the relevancy of taking pills. Personally, though, I feel that before prescribing pills for minor illnesses that have little to no effect, one should at least try to live healthy. No point in taking pills if you're still going to live unhealthy. Unless, of course, you are using medicine as a means to live slothfully. Then there's plenty of points, right? Maybe I'll post more later, I'm kind of tired right now. One last question though, how many pills actually CURE diseases or illnesses, rather than just restrain them? |
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| Nov 27th, 2005 12:49 PM | ||
| CaptainBubba |
Yea I'm pretty sure that statistic is that more people die from restrictions to medicines than from any sickness or disease. People often word it that the FDA kills more people than it saves which is maybe where you got that from? |
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