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Nov 21st, 2003 12:43 PM

Protoclown

Aaliyah was TOTALLY hot.

Nov 21st, 2003 10:15 AM

Zhukov

Yeah, I'd bone her.

Nov 21st, 2003 10:09 AM

Bennett

Goddamnit I only bumped this thread to give you all the latest news about baby girl... so are you really that somebody? Tell me are you that somebody?

Nov 20th, 2003 10:17 PM

derrida

Despite the provocative title, I don't think Zerzan is singling out art so much as he is citing the oppression inherent in symbolic thought (a redundancy, according to George Lakoff*). Zerzan wasn't the first person to do this, either- Michel Foucault, among others, had him beat by a few years.

* http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/lakoff/lakoff_p1.html

Nov 20th, 2003 06:02 PM

Protoclown

I'll touch it: boring and pointless.

NEXT!

Nov 20th, 2003 03:35 PM

Brandon

Not even going to TOUCH this one. I'm still too enraged.

Nov 20th, 2003 02:51 PM

derrida

From the source:

Quote:

Dada was one of the last two major avant-garde movements, its negative image greatly enhanced by the sense of general historical collapse radiated by World War I. Its partisans claimed, at times, to be against all "isms," including the idea of art. But painting cannot negate painting, nor can sculpture invalidate sculpture, keeping in mind that all symbolic culture is the co-opting of perception, expression and communication. [Nor can writing negate writing, nor can typing radical essays onto diskettes to assist in their publication ever be liberating - even if the typer breaks the rules and puts in an uninvited comment.] In fact, Dada was a quest for new artistic modes, its attack on the rigidities and irrelevancies of bourgeois art a factor in the advance of art; Hans Richter's memoirs referred to "the regeneration of visual art that Dada had begun." If World War I almost killed art, the Dadaists reformed it.

Nov 20th, 2003 12:39 PM

Protoclown

I just read this thread, and I tried to get through that article. I got the gist of it, boring though it was, and I only have this to say. Whoever wrote that fucking thing has WAY too much time on their hands. I'd like to tell the guy to get a fucking hobby, but since it was written nearly 20 years ago that wouldn't do him much good.

Nov 20th, 2003 11:37 AM

Bennett

BUMP! I WANT YOU TO ROCK THE BOAT, ROCK THE BOAT, ROCK THE BOAT... WORK IT IN THE MIDDLE, WORK THE MIDDLE, WORK THE MIDDLE... CHANGE DIRECTIONS

Aaliyah's Pilot Used Cocaine?
Nov 19, 2:34 PM EST

Associated Press

An autopsy found drugs and alcohol in the body of the pilot of the plane that crashed in the Bahamas killing the singer Aaliyah and eight other people in 2001, a doctor testified during a coroner's inquest.

Pilot Luis Antonio Morales had cocaine and traces of alcohol in his system, pathologist Dr. Giovander Raju testified Tuesday at the inquest on Abaco Island, where the crash occurred.

The autopsy findings of cocaine and alcohol were disclosed in July by the Bahamas Department of Civil Aviation.

Investigators have said they believe the twin-engine Cessna 402B was overloaded by 700 pounds when it crashed shortly after takeoff from Marsh Harbor in the Bahamas en route to Florida on Aug. 25, 2001.

Aaliyah was in the Bahamas to shoot the video "Rock the Boat," which the 22-year-old singer had just finished at the time of her death.

Aaliyah's parents filed court papers in September saying they had reached an undisclosed settlement in a negligence lawsuit against the plane's operator Blackhawk International Airways Corp., owners Skystream Inc. and Gilbert Chacon and flight broker Atlantic Flight Group.

Oct 10th, 2003 01:37 PM

Rez

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrida

yes, ok.. stone and clay figurines... you ever figure thatere were other mediums of art that cant stay preserved for 30,000 years? to say that people had no use for art X many years back isabsurd, art isn't *only* about something hidden, it's personal expression, and the audience decides if anything is ~hidden~ in it. that said, there's about a thousand different approaches to art... it can be whimsical, serious, art to challenge art (ie: a shoe made of earwax), all the way up to llinking aspects of todays society together to supposedly show how fucked things are... from what i read, everything is based on the notion that art is supposed to absolutely mean something *hidden*, or, for that matter, anything at all.

i also think art does not need to be "accorded" anything. it pretty much is... we instincually make art, lots of times without anyone thinking about it. for art to be accorded anything by us, who will always create it, seems dumb.

and also, it's not any show of un-telligence to use normal words you know... i understood everything you wrote, i just dont want to sound like someone completely self-important using similar vocabulary.

and you're right, i am suspicious... someone who writes that we're all better off without art is either someone desperate for attention/outrage or has a totally narrow, absolutist, or overly complicated view of life who can't seem to enjoy the simpler, basic things without becoming "bored"

Oct 10th, 2003 02:46 AM

kahljorn

She's kurt kobain version 2.

She made some crappy Pop music, like a one hit wonder almost. Then died in a plane crash and suddenly everyone loved her.

She was also the Queen of the Damned in the Queen of the Damned music, but she *sadly* died in the making sort of like Brandon Lee for Crow.

Oct 10th, 2003 02:11 AM

The_Rorschach

Who is Aaliyah?

Oct 9th, 2003 09:33 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Oct 9th, 2003 08:46 PM

derrida

Rez: I'm not really going to address your second two statements, because archaeologists have uncovered plenty of man-made objects, often a great deal more intricate or delicate than stone or clay figurines, dated well before 30,000 BC.

I think you're only jumping on that first point because you're suspicious of anything offered in totality. But Zerzan is being quite general here, and I think most views on aesthetics are in concordance with this, going back so far as the Platonic Greeks. Why else would art be accorded any unique, self-consistent value?

In "Godel, Escher, Bach" Douglas Hofstedter explained the difficulty mathematicians have encountered ever since Godel revealed the self-referentiality that inevitably plagues any ostensibly "pure" formal mathematical system. I think that this leads to a helpful analogy we can use to begin to understand art. Art, or irony, or satire, or sarcasm can be seen as instances in which the schemae we use to cope with the world around us fall victim to this same self-referentiality- doubling back over themselves and looping in new and entrancing recursive configurations.

We can profess that the systems of thought we use every day refer to some real objective reality that lies somewhere out there; that if only we could devise a perfect machine of words or pictures could we truly know what it is to exist (I think the modernist fiction of Faulkner and Joyce represented an attempt towards this end through it's use of multiple perspective and excruciatingly precise and intricate symbology) but this is ultimately a doomed pursuit, inevitably leading us further along a recursive spiral.

Oct 9th, 2003 07:49 PM

Perndog

These comments confirm my suspicion that the article was a load of crap. I still haven't read the whole thing. But fuck this guy.

I make my living producing and disseminating art.

Oct 9th, 2003 07:45 PM

kahljorn

I don't think they were "Anarchists" since they were ridiculing the only "Anarchist Society" that we have knowledge of. I think they were more like idiots trying to sound interesting. Sort of like me, but not as smart.

Oct 9th, 2003 07:03 PM

Rez

i read the first parts and stopped, because i had already found 2 things wrong with it, and that could only promise more bullshit later on in that ginormous artikle:

Quote:

Art is always about "something hidden."

not true

Quote:

During the first million or so years as reflective beings, humans seem to have created no art.

no art that could stay preserved.

Quote:

As Jameson put it, art had no place in that "unfallen social reality" because there was no need for it.

again, unknown. and to make this assumption is crapful.

so i stopped reading.

fucking anarchists.

Oct 9th, 2003 06:49 PM

kahljorn

I hate you and derrida

Oct 9th, 2003 05:45 PM

incurable paranoiac

friend- "it's all just useless mental masturbation."
me- "i know, but it's the only thing i live for."

oh, pretentious art school theory...how i love thee.

Oct 9th, 2003 05:26 PM

The One and Only...

Who is Aaliyah?

Oct 9th, 2003 02:27 PM

yall oughta be ashamed of yourself, fuckn insensitive fucks

rip babygurl we love you.

Oct 9th, 2003 11:31 AM

Bennett

Damn I miss Aaliyah.

Last Christmas my mom tried to get me to put together the Barbie Jet Airplane that she got for my nieces, but I just dumped all the pieces on the living room floor and shouted that it was now the Aaliyah Playset.

Now that's fucking high art.

...and I'm the best uncle ever.

Oct 9th, 2003 01:02 AM

CaptainBubba

Since when was 17 considered exceptionally young to be forming opinions?

Or are Derrida's just too "well defended" and "articulate" to be a 17 year old's?

Honestly I didn't read the article. I just wanted to give a big shout out to all those who remember Aaliyah and carry her cherished memory with them.

The world just isn't the same without you, boo.

Oct 9th, 2003 12:11 AM

Perndog

Please summarize that article (one or two sentences will do) for those of us with short attention spans. I don't want to read the whole thing only to find I've wasted my time on an utter pile of shit (which I suspect it to be).

I'll give you a cookie if you do.

Oct 8th, 2003 08:13 PM

Miss Modular

Quote:

During the first million or so years as reflective beings, humans seem to have created no art. As Jameson put it, art had no place in that "unfallen social reality" because there was no need for it. Though tools were fashioned with an astonishing economy of effort and perfection of form, the old cliche about the aesthetic impulse as one of the irreducible components of the human mind is invalid.

The oldest enduring works of art are hand-prints, produced by pressure or blown pigment - a dramatic token of direct impress on nature. Later in the Upper Paleolithic era, about 30,000 years ago, commenced the rather sudden appearance of the cave art associated with names like Altamira and Lascaux. These images of animals possess an often breathtaking vibrancy and naturalism, though concurrent sculpture, such as the widely-found "venus" statuettes of women, was quite stylized. Perhaps this indicates that domestication of people was to precede domestication of nature. Significantly, the "sympathetic magic" or hunting theory of earliest art is now waning in the light of evidence that nature was bountiful rather than threatening.

Warhol based his entire career on the idea of taking the ordinary and mundane, and turning it into the religious and awe-inspiring.

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