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| Apr 13th, 2004 04:12 PM | ||||
| davinxtk |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 04:09 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:39 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
No, actually I don't. As you say Utopia does not, and can not, exist. The best a society can do is endeavour to support an atmosphere which balances out disappointment with a proportional amount of bliss to keep its adherents relatively satsified. Cultures we regard as primitive have already achieved 'the vision.' Achieving 'the vision' on a global scale must be accomplished through example, not military prowess - No matter how expedient such means might be. Look at the success the US enjoyed in the ME during the 1930's implimenting 'the vision' and how drastically short we have fallen since. . .And if you care to notice, it wasn't the government which curried the favour of Iraqi's and Iranians then, it was humanitarians and missionaries who felt an obligation towards their fellow man but it reflected the good will America harboured. We're doing the wrong thing, and no matter how pure you make our motives, it won't rid the taint of our actions. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:31 PM | ||||
| mburbank |
What will we do if, as is highly likely, the Shiite majority VOTE for Sharia Law? Overthrow them again until they adopt the kind of democracy we meant? Are the attrocities you point out the reason we are at war in Iraq? Because we need to get very busy cleaning house, starting with our close pals, the Saudis and our trading partners, the Chinese. Do you believe that Iraq was the worst defiler of human rights? And that human rights had anything at all to do with our invasion? Will you tell me that my unwilligness to use our military to overthrow the leaders we don't like (and I have a very long list) means I favor Sharia? Leave aside that W and company weren't thinking about such niceties. This is all about preemption, not human rights. You use Saudia Arabia as an example of how bad thing can be in a dictatorship, and I agree. But we have nothing against them, we won't even act agressively to get their royal family to stop funneling money to known terrorist groups. Directly after 9/11, we didn't question Osama's family, we flew them out of the country! I bet Jose Padilla wishes he had that kind of family. You are advocating an entirely different foreign policy than the one we have and saying 'well this is close!' My contention is it isn't close, I don't think the administration wants any of the things you're talking about and I think they count on getting decet people like yourself so riled they can't see straight. Terrorism is terrible. Far more people die in car accidents. You are being manipulated. Human rights abuse is rampant and an abomination. Bush is not a human rights president. Join Amnesty International. You are being manipulated. I also think a stable, democratic Iraq would be a lovely thing. Hell, I'd settle for Pakistan having elected leaders and Saudi Arabai having a constitutional monarchy. I'd like to by the world a coke, but you don't do it at gun point. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:30 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:21 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
Have you ever been to the ME? I have. Abject poverty describes some of it, but not all. Look at the UAE. There are places in Iraq where conditions were crippling, but fuck, drive through Watts some time. Or Compton. Or Brooklyn. Or the Mission District in San Francisco. If our war is against poverty, lets clean our own backyard first. Equality under the law is your supposition eh? So you're saying I can expect the same representation and protection unde the law as say, the Kennedies, OJ Simpson, Bill Gates and Kenneth Lay? A man regretful of a sexual encounter which resulted in a child can have it aborted or file rape charges to avoid fiscal responsibilities? As for perfection. . .It should be the aim of our efforts, not philosophical conscription. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:18 PM | ||||
| AChimp |
 They don't seem to be fearing Americans enough to prevent entire cities from rising up. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:14 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:12 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:09 PM | ||||
| AChimp |
Oh really? So why didn't they overthrow him themselves? Have you ever wondered WHY Saddam ruled such a fractured country the way he did, other than the typical kneejerk reaction "He was a dictator! Bad!" Iraq is made up of a whole bunch of different ethnic groups that all hate each other. You either have to make them get along with force or let them fight each other. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:07 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
"In Saudi Arabia, they can execute adulteresses by stoning and homosexuals by hurling them off rooftops. " Thats like saying in America ******s can be dragged by a truck for eight miles. Honour Killings are outlawed in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and most Middle Eastern nations. Simply because it is still practised is no reflection on the nation itself. Unless you want to use the Appalachians as a control group for the American Model. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:06 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:04 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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In Saudi Arabia, they can execute adulteresses by stoning and homosexuals by hurling them off rooftops. Oh, another Saudi example? In a school with a capacity of 200, roughly 800 girls were in class (they're women, just cram em in!) when a fire broke out. The girls, who ran to the fire exit without covering themselves according to muslim law, were met with police officers outside, who clubbed them back into the flames. Plenty died, all were horribly burned. So yeah, theocracy would be just swell, eh? Oh, by the way, I could easily make the argument that since America is predominantly Christian, WE should be a theocracy. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:03 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
Thought is Free, Speech is restricted. A Navy kid I served with got billed eight hundred for having a Swatstika bumper sticker on his Benz not too long ago. The charges had something to do with Hate Speech or some such. I afraid I didn't take notes because I wasn't overly interested by it, but the point isn't any less valid for the stupidty of the parties involved. You speak of equality for the sexes, but really, how equal are they? Maybe its my Existentialist inclination showing, but the equality is superficial at best. What is the measuring stick? Physical expectations? Cerebral capacity? Pay checks and occupations? These are all very nice ideas, I suppose, but the rights you are championing aren't even held dear in the country which inititially espoused them. They are used and abused by individuals in order to further selfish aims. If you want to turn Iraq into a beaurocratic bedlam of litigation and materialism, power to you, but I fancy we'd be doing far more harm than leaving them be. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:02 PM | ||||
| AChimp |
Brandon, you are full of crap. You can't make people accept things that they don't want. We're ignoring the most important right of all: the right to not have rights. If they want a dictatorship for government, I say let them have one. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 03:00 PM | ||||
| davinxtk |
Heaven forbid a nation that consists almost entirely of a single religion be a theocracy.
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| Apr 13th, 2004 02:47 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 02:41 PM | ||||
| mburbank |
People are fickle. Dictatorship is no longer their problem. Occupation is their problem now. As for values, everyone think theirs are universal. No matter how much better our values may be, forcing values is a contradiction in terms. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 02:30 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 12:22 PM | ||||
| Protoclown |
Max, that was absolutely beautiful
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| Apr 13th, 2004 11:30 AM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
I thought Artificial Brandon had been around at the EZbourd site under a different name Kevin. . .But I could be mistaken. In any case, I think Blair is at an impasse and has a conflict of interest. Whether he is right or wrong in the stance he has taken, and I would believe he erred greatly, he is left in the position of defending it. A good orator can bend reason, facts and philosophy to suit their whims of the moment, and I think the above was an attempt from Blair towards similar aims. "The World Would Be A Better Place" is not an argument which holds water. Probabilities to not determine realities. Objectively, one must admit that we are not furthering any manner of absolutes through our military actions in the Middle East, but rather forcing our philsophical ideals upon an unwilling nation with-holding conflicting views which has already embraced its own manifest destiny. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 10:46 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
"THE U.S. AND U.K. ARE FASCISTS!" "BUSH AND BLAIR ARE RACISTS WHO THINK MUSLIMS ARE INFERIOR!" "WE ONLY CARE ABOUT OIL!" See, now, those aren't jokes. Statements re way different than jokes and make their point or don't in a far different way. You might as well say "A Modest Proposal" is just "POVERTY IS BAD! LET'S BE MORE COMPASSIONATE!" Although I'm certainly no Swift. I think you will find though, that every joke in my version was given an opening by what Blair actually said. This is precisely how satire works. The jokes are only funny if they play off of the reality. You may not agree, which is fine, but as I say at the end, I don't think this article is Winston Churchill. He put more craft and effort into his utilitarian political speech. |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 10:02 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Someone who I think has been around a lot longer than you, if I'm not mistaken. Why do we post/read/bother with these pieces written by the government officials?? I mean, I posted the one Rumsfeld wrote a few weeks ago mainly for a lark, but does it come as any surprise that Tony Blair would (gasp) write up a piece rationalizing his decisions? I'll give him credit, one eloquent editorial by Blair is more convincing for me than 10 speeches by President Bush. That doesn't change the fact that I think they're both wrong, and seeing Blair restate the same things he stated before, during, and after the war has little sway on me. I'm just as much a sucker for pretty words and feel good liberalism as the next guy, but that doesn't change the substance of things for me..... |
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| Apr 13th, 2004 12:51 AM | ||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 12th, 2004 11:25 PM | ||||
| Big Papa Goat | Are you the new OAO yet? | |||
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