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| Apr 12th, 2004 04:33 PM | |||||
| kellychaos | Brandon does have an important point. Did the administration, with all their intelligence capabilities, think they were turning the power over to a homogenized muslim community? Even the U.S., which is NOT a theocracy, would have religious leaders hovering over the carcass were we to be invaded and forced to establish an alternate form of government. | ||||
| Apr 11th, 2004 12:11 PM | |||||
| Brandon |
First of all, Max, I think you're completely ignoring the positive changes that have come from the war. The Iraqi people are simply much better off than they were under Saddam Hussein, and the violence in Fallujah is not "proof" that the majority of Iraqis hate us. Secondly, while I definitely think we could have planned better for post-war reconstruction, it would also be naive to assume that a country that spent so many years in turmoil could become Anytown U.S.A. overnight. |
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| Apr 11th, 2004 11:33 AM | |||||
| mburbank |
I don't think we're morally insensitive, just dense. Jockying for power in a power vaccuum? Dangerous political factioning in a tribal multi ethnic country ruled by a dictatorship for years? Who could have forseen it?!? The main reason we're up shit creek now is we had zero coherent stratgey beyond toppling Sadaam. This administration refused to even concider all the reasons Bush Elder decided NOT to occupy iraq, preferring the basurd idea that we'd be welcomed with flowers by a unified Iraq. We don't have to be morally repugnant. We're the occupying power. We haven't restored order, we aren't keeping people safe, and historically, most people aren't terribly keen on their occupiers in the best of circumstances. These are not the best of circumstances. It's a really, really tough set of circumstances. Here's what I expect from our leadership when approching a really, really tough set of circumstances. 1.) See if it's absolutely neccesary. 2.) Weigh your countries other needs and make a comparison so you can determine where your resources are most wisely spent. 3.) If you still have to engage the really really difficult set of circumstances, make a plan that hs contingencies. If your first plan doesn't work, if the things you think will happen turn out diffferently, what will you do? I think we've failed miserably on all three of thse steps. That doesn't mean I thinkl we're getting what we deserve, and it doesn't mean I think religous fanatics are right and we are the great Satan. I think we are a perfectly lovely country doing an absolutely terrible job in a really rfeally difficult situation and making a mess which will bite us in the ass for generations, but only when it's not too busy biting us in the thorat. |
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| Apr 10th, 2004 05:14 PM | |||||
| Brandon |
I'd like to remind everyone that just because certain Iraqis say we're morally heinous doesn't mean that we actually are. I don't see these uprisings as motivated by unjust oppression but by a desire to fill the massive power vacuum that the U.S. will leave behind. Sadr will use any sort of religious rhetoric he can come up to rally support from common, impressionable Iraqis, but, in my estimate, he's just got designs on Saddam's old throne. |
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| Apr 9th, 2004 09:55 PM | |||||
| thebiggameover |
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but i still help them move ether way... :/ |
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| Apr 9th, 2004 05:23 PM | |||||
| ranxer |
the UN headquarters in Iraq were bombed for working with the U.S. and revenge for being the headquarters of the Food for Oil program that again had U.S. oversight and approval. the UN would have more legitimacy if the U.S. wasnt using it as a tool half the time. we seriously need to do more listening and cooperating with the UN members instead of threatening and ballbusting. I don't think we will get much international support until the American corporations relinquish control of the contracts and open it to fair bidding. |
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| Apr 9th, 2004 04:56 PM | |||||
| Brandon | Keep in mind we've been attempting to get the U.N. more involved for some time now. | ||||
| Apr 9th, 2004 04:01 PM | |||||
| Ant10708 |
Isn't the reason the U.N. left Iraq is because someone bombed their hotel or soemthing? I'm also pretty sure they were peacekeepers and not U.N. soldiers. I could be wrong. Yeah they are sure as hell respected. |
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| Apr 9th, 2004 10:54 AM | |||||
| davinxtk |
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The UN would have sent more than just American troops over there, and I would bet an oil well or two that the Iraqi people (most specifically the ones who hung, dragged, beat, burned, rinse, repeat) would respect the UN forces, contractors, intents, and purposes a hell (or at least a hot desert) of a lot more than they do anything bearing the stars and stripes. Quote:
We made a mess, and now we're being yelled at to get the fuck out of the room so they can clean it up themselves. By staying there as long as we have we've just smeared the problem around a bit and added more of our own to the body count. Quote:
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| Apr 8th, 2004 05:09 PM | |||||
| Brandon |
There's no way we're going to get out of this mess without either looking like bad guys or cowards. So, subdue resistance with maximum force or flee? What's it going to be, folks? |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 04:33 PM | |||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 04:20 PM | |||||
| Jeanette X |
If Bush is reelected, I'll kill myself. 
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| Apr 8th, 2004 04:11 PM | |||||
| kellychaos |
Sure, setting up a democratic government in a year is a pretty big order. I didn't reallistically buy it then and I wish we had never gotten involved. We did; however, and I guess there's no use crying over spilled milk. I still don't like the way the administration went about it. To recap: a) Bush has had a hate-on for the Iraq since he got into office, which is evident in his meetings with Tony Blair and various other U.S. intelligence and defense administrators way before the 9/11 trajedy. b) The towers are collapsed and he takes advantage of the anti-muslim sentiment in the air to suddenly warn americans of the terrorist threat and scare us with the possible use of WMD which have yet to be found. Half the people I talk to STILL believe that Iraq is responsible for the 9/11 trajedy when, in truth, over half the terrorists involved were Saudi Arabian nationals. c) Not only are no connections found from the Iraqis found as the war progresses, but neither are no WMD. He SOLD the whole war on the threat. d) They finally admit to the fact that the intelligence on the threat of WMD was, at best, weak. That's a fact that the U.N. officials knew all along. That's why they didn't endorse the war ... well, that and the various economic interest of major U.N. players. e) Suddenly, it's a war for the democracy of an oppressed and terrorized people which is to be organized and handed back to these same people within the yearm or so. Now, I knew that the handing over of the reign was going to be, more or less, a ceremonial thing under our continued occupation. That just the way that these things go. That is NOT; however, how the current administration sold. More slight of hand. f) So here we are with an american people who have been lied to and disallusioned. Can you understand why they might be angry over lack of results while waiting for more lies and/or manipulation? |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 03:22 PM | |||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
http://www.thisislondon.com/til/jsp/...temId=10169441 The Iraqis holding Japanese journalists and an aid worker have threatened to burn the men alive if Japan doesn't pull out of Iraq in three days. I'm getting really tired of this shit. |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 01:44 PM | |||||
| BombsBurstingInAir | That's a good start Max! | ||||
| Apr 8th, 2004 09:57 AM | |||||
| mburbank |
1.) Separation of powers. 2.) Foreign aid. 3.) Freedom of the press. Or did you mean things we do over in Iraq? Because that I'm not as clear on. Seriously, the idea that Liberals aren't patriotic is a canard. I'm fiercely patriotic about our constitution and our bill of rights and I'll go toe to toe with anyone about what they mean. One of the reasons I'm so vehemently against this administration is I seriously believe it's fundamentally dangerous to much of what I think makes America a great, historically important country. Throughout my life I have strongly disliked Republicans from Nixon to Bush Sr. but I never thought they were truly dangerous to America in the long term and honestly never imagined I could feel that way. It's my very patriotic opinion that W and company are a very different animal than we have seen in power during my life. |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 09:39 AM | |||||
| BombsBurstingInAir |
Such negative karma towards the "U.S." Maybe if each of you can identify three good things that the "U.S." does we'll all feel better. |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 09:01 AM | |||||
| AChimp |
Well, see, we don't want to help now that you've made a right good mess of it. The U.S. is being like the neighbour who insists on renovating by themself when they have no experience. "No, no," says the the other neighbour, who happens to be a qualified handyman. "If you do it this way, it will save you time and money." The first neighbour brushes him off, saying that he knows what he's doing and if you're not willing to do it his way, you'll just be getting in the way. So, he convinces a few friends to help with the promise of free beer and away they go. A few days into the project, he finds out that he's cut holes in load-bearing walls and the wallpaper has bubbles. With the roof falling in, he goes back to the handyman neighbour and asks to borrow his tools. But you know what? He's already loaned out all of his tools to other people so they can fix the doghouse, deck and gazebo that were abandoned in the quest for the most awesomest yard. |
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| Apr 8th, 2004 04:29 AM | |||||
| Brandon | Oh, and if the UN is planning on offering some support, they should probably hurry the fuck up. Nobody's stopping them. | ||||
| Apr 6th, 2004 04:08 PM | |||||
| punkgrrrlie10 |
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We see alot of bad press, and yes soldiers die. You kind of have to resolve to that when you enlist. It's a little far-fetched to think being a soldier, in a war/occupation things are just rosy and people throw daisies at your feet. Do you really think if we pulled out it wouldn't just get worse? That some dictator wouldn't just grab power and the country would be right back where we ripped it from? We caused it, of course we have to clean it up. It's called responsibility for one's actions. And it's going to be difficult to instill the idea of democracy into a people who have been ruled by a cruel dictator where it was probably tantamount to torture or a death sentence if one were to voice opposition to the regime. I can imagine their history books being slanted towards Sadaam's version of history just as ours do to our own. It's very early in the game; it takes along time to develop a system of gov't. Our first constitution, the Articles dismally failed but it still took a couple years to do so and the country was on the brink of collapse for a very long time right after the revolution. I say expecting a working gov't in 1 year is a pretty big order. Sadly, the only people who can speak up in Iraq, are the one's that have no qualms about bombing contractors/civilians b/c they've never been afraid to die for their causes anyway. Of course we don't wanna die for another country, but our war chief was elected to be in charge of our army and this is what he's done. |
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| Apr 6th, 2004 02:46 PM | |||||
| Rez |
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| Apr 6th, 2004 01:31 PM | |||||
| Buffalo Tom |
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| Apr 6th, 2004 12:50 PM | |||||
| AChimp |
The U.S. should have listened to Canada's Iraq proposal. Of course, we don't have a good concept of foreign relations, so what od we know?
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| Apr 6th, 2004 12:43 PM | |||||
| Buffalo Tom | See, the problem is the U.S. bombed the crap out of Iraq, so there are no flowers to throw at the troops. Instead, Iraqis have had to resort to throwing grenades. | ||||
| Apr 6th, 2004 11:08 AM | |||||
| davinxtk |
My friend Steve is sitting next to me talking about his friend from Plymouth who just got wasted over in Iraq. We need to get the fuck out of there and let the UN, or whoever the fuck wants to, deal with the situation. We've destroyed their cities, occupied their country, and caused enough riots and turmoil to keep the anti-American sentiment alive for another four, eight, twelve, however many years it is before another republican president decides that control over oil wells is a "weapon of mass destruction." |
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