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| Apr 16th, 2006 12:43 PM | |||
| cba1067950 |
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| Apr 15th, 2006 09:03 PM | |||
| kahljorn |
"There is no reason we couldn't set up a system where immigrants could be thoroughly vetted within about 60 days upon entry into this country." What does vetted mean? Also, I think the reason it takes so long is because, first off, there's probably tons of people trying to immigrate and there's a line(there actually is a line, and a list that shows where you are in the line to gain a visa). Also, they are doing criminal/background checks and those sometimes take a while, especially, I'm assuming, if it's from another country and there's a huge line of people. The wait is a bit ridiculous, though. "If we want to get all uptight about it, put one of those tracking anklets on em, like they use for people under house arest, or maybe even stick em in one of our closed down military bases so we can run them through a citizenship boot camp. " I like both of those ideas, and with your suggestion of "Vetting" them maybe we could put one of those animal tracking devices on them when we get their immunizations done. "we have a bad tendancy toward persecuting anyone we can whenever we can gin up an appropriate seeming excuse to do so. OUR rights are God-given," Persecuting and trying to protect our "god-given rights" while maintaining our current life-style are two completely different things. However, I do agree that many people are probably harboring irrational feelings on this subject. Simply changing the immigration policy isn't so simple. There's many factors to consider, including the ramifications a few million new people will add to the stress of the country, economically and culturally. I'd be interested in hearing what types of effects propsed solutions would have, if people even think like that. |
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| Apr 15th, 2006 08:03 PM | |||
| Preechr |
There is no reason we couldn't set up a system where immigrants could be thoroughly vetted within about 60 days upon entry into this country. If we want to get all uptight about it, put one of those tracking anklets on em, like they use for people under house arest, or maybe even stick em in one of our closed down military bases so we can run them through a citizenship boot camp. Concerned about overloading our social welfare systems? Put their citizenship on a provisional basis for five years or so where nothing is free. Worst case scenario, they can always run north to Canada's open arms for a free lunch. Worried that they won't learn the language? Require it as a condition of full citizenship. You can do the same thing with healthcare by requiring them to purchase and retain health insurance. If we can submit them to the red-tape they currently are subjected to, I think it's pretty safe to say we could do whatever we want and get away with it. Any legitimate concerns anyone has about immigration can be addressed rationally. That is not what this little crapfest is about. Our legislators are not working on fixing any problems right now. They are creating a boogey man to be burned in effigy for the elections. Those that cannot govern with leadership based in reason manipulate with fear and prejudice. As I said before, we have a bad tendancy toward persecuting anyone we can whenever we can gin up an appropriate seeming excuse to do so. OUR rights are God-given, but everybody else has to get them from us. |
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| Apr 14th, 2006 04:01 PM | |||
| Carnivore |
I'll never disparage anyone who comes here to earn an honest living, pay taxes, and respect the law. I confess that I do become a little... irked when someone residing in this country does not speak English (I have to deal with this at work almost daily), but usually the second generation, educated in American schools, is bilingual, so it tends to correct itself over time. These people we want. We need to make it easier for these people to get the documentation they need to stay and eventually become citizens. If they let their visas expire by accident, let it slide. I got caught driving with an expired license once. I just hadn't got around to renewing it. The magistrate told me to fix it and let me off. Same deal. I can't truly hate the ones that come here illegally because we don't (from what I understand) make it easy for them to be here legally. They also irk me, however, because they do not pay taxes and are given free healthcare and other services. We need to take away their excuse that it's too hard to do things the right way. Once that's done, the ones who still come here illegally should be loaded onto a giant trebuchet and launched back over the border. It's all well and good to have your little flag from the old country (in which your great grandparents actually lived) so long as it's in its proper place, below the flag of the USA. |
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| Apr 13th, 2006 01:12 AM | |||
| kahljorn |
How long does it take to get a work visa or some other right to live in the USA? Seems most people are misunderstanding it, or maybe I'm misunderstanding them, but I don't think it takes any longer than 2-3 years. I think there's also different programs that work faster. |
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| Apr 13th, 2006 12:50 AM | |||
| Johnny Couth | One of my music teachers was canadian, and he worked illegally in the music department of my school for two months, until he finally got his work visa. They would never charge him, or the school for providing him with a job, as felons because he is a) canadian, b) white, c) middle class. | ||
| Apr 12th, 2006 09:45 PM | |||
| Preechr |
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That was several years ago, though... before they learned skilled trades like HVAC and Electrical. I can only imagine that by now the ratio in a lot of regions has become so skewed as to have rendered American labor crews nearly non-existant. If you are on one of the ones that are left, it's gotta be a lonely job site for a non-Latino. That being said, the cultural differences between them and us I'd write off to normal human reaction to the situation in which our laws have left them. Ten years? Isn't that a bit excessive for a probationary period? I'm a libertarian capitalist. I see no reason whatsoever to deny whomever wants it the American Economy as long as they are willing to participate in some sort of positive regard. I am part immigrants from many places and part Native. I can look back in American history and see that every wave of immigrants from every part of the world was in their turn discriminated against and oppressed for profit in much the same way our latest batch is. We've even gone so far as to find our latest whipping boys within just a couple of years ago, with our wonderful little election referendum on gay marriage. It seems that whenever we find any opportunity to do so We The People, those that are born in the land that first implemented the concept that all our rights are born within us regardless of any other circumstances, just can't resist the temptation to deny the natural born rights of anyone we can. EVERY single batch of immigrants that's ever washed up on our shores faced the same two-faces of America, from the Chinese to the Irish to the Thai. We despised them and then forced them into labor, and they eventually applied themselves to some ignored section of our American lifestyles, taking it over. Just as gas prices go up EVERY summer and there's always a new reason why, Meso and South American immigrants are just the latest invasion of "other." It's just a bunch of political bullshit between now and once everybody's accepted it and moved on the the next group of victims. |
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| Apr 12th, 2006 04:25 PM | |||
| kahljorn |
Yea, ziggy, it's basically the same as relocating a factory because you can pay less. Oh wait, that's not what they are doing, they are just helping the disadvantaged.  I like your approach. |
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| Apr 12th, 2006 03:54 PM | |||
| ziggytrix |
I've decided this whole thing is just further evidence that our current culture loves to push blame off on the most convenient person. The problem is not illegal immigration. The problem is American citizens who willingly break the law by hiring illegal immigrants as a source of cheap labor. They aren't coming here for an invasion. They aren't coming here to steal healthcare and public education. They're coming here for American dollars. Solve the problem of why employers are willing to break the law to hire illegals, and the immigration issue would follow. |
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| Apr 12th, 2006 12:07 PM | |||
| cba1067950 |
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| Apr 12th, 2006 11:00 AM | |||
| Chojin |
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It definitely feels like an invasion, and I live on the east coast, pretty far from the border. Everything I buy these days has instructions in spanish and english. I work on a construction site as part of the only non-illegal labor force there. Whatever the reason, it is still trespassing. Many Americans have a "come on my property and you's gon' get shot" attitude, and these people are basically coming into your neighborhood and throwing a block party. In spanish. With festive outfits. And we can all pretty much agree that hispanic music is terrible. In my opinion they should be deported. There are PLENTY of Americans who WOULD 'deign' to do manual labor, and it is neither this country's fault nor duty to enrich these peoples' otherwise harder lives. But then, no-one would have an opinion if they had all the facts. |
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| Apr 12th, 2006 09:17 AM | |||
| Preechr |
I think I'll just be happier when the conservative angle obtusifies itself into something other than the "It's an invasion!" thing-a-ma-jigger. That, and if I hear the argument that all illegals are inherently criminals because they broke the ridiculous and labyrinthine immigration tangle of laws to begin their lives here I'll throw up. As if no "real" American ever broke a law they felt, at the time, was both stupid and against their interests, only to move on and remain a decent person. When any sort of official or pundit of note takes the tack toward revamping the immigration process into something this side of an at least ten-year (if not interminable) process, somebody please wake me up. People cannot be expected to devote such a large portion of their lifespan to just becoming an American citizen on paper. On one hand, that's simply an outrageous presumption, but on the other, it's a cause and effect issue that is responsible for the closed communities of immigrants alluded to in the above Roosevelt quote. Our current immigration process is economic slavery. |
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| Apr 12th, 2006 03:34 AM | |||
| Dr. V |
Teddy said it best: Quote:
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| Apr 9th, 2006 04:56 AM | |||
| cba1067950 |
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| Apr 6th, 2006 01:14 PM | |||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
There's various classes of HB-whatever visas. I want to read through this, I'll respond later..... |
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| Apr 6th, 2006 12:48 PM | |||
| kahljorn |
Story on the new immigration law This is exactly what I was hoping would come out of this. People who have lived here successfully for many years and can show it will, more than likely, now be able to obtain citizenship quite easily. Although, what's with this temporary worker thing they were talking about? I knew there was such a program(though not the specifics), but then why is there such a fucking issue with being here illegally if they could've just become temporary workers in the past? According to this, workers who have lived here 2-5 years will have to "Go home' and return shortly afterwards as a temporary worker. People who have been here more than five years can stay, and people who have been here less than two years are fucked. Sounds great. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 01:21 PM | |||
| kahljorn |
"So you do not believe our current economy relies on the availability of undocumented immigrant labor?" I'm sure it's a big part of it(especially in the border states) but for some strange reason I doubt we'd have an economic recession if there weren't illegal immigrants anymore. Did you know in places that aren't along the mexican border(I believe this even includes northern california) there's almost no mexicans? True story, people there put ketchup on their tacos. KETCHUP. They don't even know what enchiladas are, they probably think that it's some kind of musical instrument. I also agree that protests are generally full of ignorant people who don't understand what they are talking about. I really probably shouldn't have even mentioned their behavior, I was just pissy about them protesting outside of my house and blocking traffic and all of that shit for their stupid opinions. Plus they scream at anybody who doesn't agree with them and call them a racist(not that that happened to me, I just ignore them). They also compare us(america) to hitler because we don't let people immigrate in freely, I guess that's what we get for letting them bake in mexico apparantly. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 12:57 PM | |||
| ziggytrix |
So you do not believe our current economy relies on the availability of undocumented immigrant labor? Any politician who is talking about "Guest Worker" programs right now clearly does. That's a big part of this controversy. BTW, I totally agree with you that plenty of the protesters are ignorant, juvenile, or just hangers-on - but that is true of almost ANY protest. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 12:46 PM | |||
| kahljorn |
"Have you ever paid a bill late? Why couldn't you just pay it on time? What if the company said, "Sorry, no late payments. We aren't going to do business with you for 5 years."? " The website also said that if you're late and there's a good reason for it(it listed some good reasons, perhaps one of them was family emergency or something, but I doubt being lazy was on the list) they would still consider renewing your visa. Kind of like when you pay a bill late eh? "You asked a question, I answered it." And i expanded on it ;/ it's not like i insulted you or anything, quit bitching because we're having a discussion. "are you sure that link you gave me is to the legislation that everyone was getting so upset over?" Probably not, that's why I took care to note that it was the arizona legislation. I really only looked at it because I wanted to see the punishment. I'll try to find the one about aiding illegal immigrants. "by some accounts if tomorrow every single illegal immigrant just vanished into thin air, we'd have an economic recession by Monday." By some accounts tomorrow if it rained in brazil somewhere in china a man could find gold and spend it all on hookers by next tuesday. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 11:21 AM | |||
| ziggytrix |
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Have you ever paid a bill late? Why couldn't you just pay it on time? What if the company said, "Sorry, no late payments. We aren't going to do business with you for 5 years."? Also, are you sure that link you gave me is to the legislation that everyone was getting so upset over? It said nothing about criminalizing giving aid to an illegal alien... At any rate, by some accounts if tomorrow every single illegal immigrant just vanished into thin air, we'd have an economic recession by Monday. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 03:13 AM | |||
| kahljorn |
"If you want to communicate, you need to retain the language, and language is also a part of cultural identity" When the hell did any law tell them to completely forget their language and heritage? Will learning english or american history force them to forget their language and cultural identity? Other than that I enjoyed your post. "This creates a major problem for Mexican farmers, who no longer can make money growing food for their own country." This is a very interesting point. A similar point i heard good ol' Ahnold bring up is that alot of farmers have alot of difficulties in attaining citizenship because of the fact that in order to gain citizenship(or visas) you have to have some sort of skill, and picking grapes(his words) isn't a skill. I've heard there was actually some discussion of more thoroughly integrating North America. I love this idea, but can't really see it happening in light of our extremely differing economies and culture(mostly between canada/us and mexico). lol a funny idea shouldn't they be protesting in mexico instead of here if the conditions there are so bad? "It also takes a few years to just get a visa." I didn't know it was that difficult nor that it took nearly that long(assuming this isn't exagerrated), I withdraw my comments on, "why can't they renew their visas". Actually, wait, no i don't because renewing is easier(it says to file for renewance 45 days before it's up, so I'm assuming they could have it done by then). More like, "Why can't they apply for visas", however; Wait: (who knows if the following information is true) http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/faq.htm#q13 it says it takes 6-9 months on average, depending on the office, to process citizenship applications. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 02:58 AM | |||
| Marc Summers |
I took a Latino Studies class (which of course makes me an authority ) but here's my opinion: Most Mexicans crossing the border leave a lot of their family behind, especially if they're illegal. If you want to communicate, you need to retain the language, and language is also a part of cultural identity. There is no "expected immigrant behavior". Part of what America prides itself on is the freedom it gives to its citizens on how they can act, worship, or pretty much how they live their lives (within reason). If all immigrants in the past have acted "as expected", why do we have cultural enclaves like Little Italy and Chinatown and whatnot? I'm not blind, I do see Spanish becoming more prevalent here in SoCal, but so what? I don't see why anyone should be upset if Latinos suddenly become the majority. Telling immigrant groups to act like a true American is beyond rude in my opinion; it tells me that person has no respect for that person's heritage or for the melting pot (oh, I went there) of culture that is the U.S. However, I think everyone is missing the bigger picture here, which is why we have such an influx of Latino immigrants. My theory on this is two causes: NAFTA (with CAFTA signed recently) and corruption south of the border. Government corruption always has people fleeing a country, which is understandable. NAFTA, however, is a little trickier. When people think about NAFTA, they think "Oh yay! Free trade!" but don't consider the consequences. With NAFTA, Mexico is able to buy beans and rice at a lower cost than producing those themselves. This creates a major problem for Mexican farmers, who no longer can make money growing food for their own country. Millions have already been forced to seek work elsewhere, and Mexico isn't really known for being urbanized or industrialized. Most illegal immigrants are illegal because there is an INTENSE bureaucratic process in becoming a citizen here. Both governments intentionally make it difficult to become a citizen by setting up a horrific bureaucratic maze. It also takes a few years to just get a visa. On another point, there is a surprising number of illegals who pay taxes. The IRS probably has the best idea of how many illegals are in this country, because if you don't have a SSN (which would signify that you're a citizen), they can assign you a random number to use in that field. Illegals also contribute greatly to the economy. Yes, they do take up jobs, but they're usually jobs that other people really don't want to do. California probably has the highest number of illegals out of all the states, yet still remains as one of the largest economies in the world. |
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| Apr 5th, 2006 02:47 AM | |||
| kahljorn |
"Staying on an expired Visa is grounds from deportation" That site says it's possible to renew your visa. I don't get why they couldn't do that. Are they too busy or too important to worry about their immigracy status? Oh wait, apparantly not, because they have the time to cooperate in protests. I like how the website says that working with/around the immigration rules is an important thing if you plan on attaining citizenship at a later time. Imagine that concept. I can't think of anything in my life-time where following the rules and guidelines showed that I was responsible and should be accepted. I can understand if they tried and were denied, but for some reason I doubt they even bothered trying. I just think they should at least try the system before abandoning and complaining, especially at this scale. Anyway; again, it's pretty fucked up to charge people with a felony for wanting to have a good life and provide for their families. Personally, I think the immigration policy should be reworked to make it easier for people who deserve to be here to be here. here's some information I've found, since you had some problems ziggy: Arizona Legislation Some interesting points of it, since i know how lazy you people are about clicking links: B. The arresting authority shall fingerprint a person who is arrested for a violation of this section. At the discretion of the arresting authority on the first offense, the person may be transferred to the federal agency with jurisdiction or referred for prosecution. From some interpretations I saw this means that first offenders can be deported without being charged. However, multiple offenses will be charged more severly. That law references this, which provides punishments for avoiding immigration: Section 1325 It's considered a class six felony under arizona law, which carries these penalties: For Class 6 felonies, the jury or court may choose imprisonment for one to five years or jail for up to 12 months and a fine of up to $2,500, either or both. It is considered the lowest form of a felony. Multiple offenders get class four, which carries the penalty of: "imprisonment for two to 10 years and a fine of up to $100,000" |
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| Apr 4th, 2006 09:41 PM | |||
| ziggytrix |
Staying on an expired Visa is grounds from deportation. If you are late in reapply, you are an illegal alien. http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/extendstay.htm If I'm not mistaken, under the proposed law, failing to turn in this paperwork on time would be a felony if you hadn't already left the country. I got really sidetracked looking for details on the exact legislation that was proposed. I'm wagering most folks can't tell you exactly what it was apart from "making illegal immigrants and anyone who helped them felons" which I doubt is the exact wording of the bill... So anyway, I just read that today Sen. McCain told some AFL-CIO members that Americans won't pick lettuce in Arizona for $50 an hour... I think he meant $15 or is being misquoted though. Mostly cuz I don't think people would buy lettuce at the price it would cost to be able to pay the workers $50/hour. |
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| Apr 4th, 2006 09:02 PM | |||
| kahljorn |
t "And the fact that you think the walkouts had no effect and were stupid shows that you're a bit uninformed on the matter." Where did I say that? Sure, I said they were stupid shows and they were. What else are highschool students interested in? However, you're saying that to a person who constantly says everything every person does effects everything. I say that all the damn time. I don't really even know if your post was directed at me, because like I said, I don't agree with making it a felony. I just think their approach was ridiculous, especially the ideas they hold in their minds about it. THIS IS MY INITIAL STATEMENT ON THE MATTER: "The only thing i don't get about this is how stupid the people really are when it comes to the issue of immigration" Okay? "a lot of these people are undocumented immigrants who had temporary VISAS that expired. " Can't they reapply? "A lot of them are young men and women who may have been born in Mexico, but who have essentially lived in America all of their lives. They might go to school, college, and even have their own business. " Can't they apply? I'm pretty sure the fact that they work and live here successfully and contribute to america would probably show that they would make good citizens. Did you even read my post? "Where's the "terrorism" concern there?" Well, hypothetically I think canada might have better controlled borders, customs and other laws that would make it safer and less likely that a terrorist would cross there. Really the terrorist concern was more of a, "What if" type thing, and i think making illegal immigracy a felony might give them a bit more leeway into finding information on suspected terrorists who come here illegally. Again, all that is hypothetical, all I really care about is the fact that the people protesting are protesting for stupid reasons. I don't really care if you're right about something if your approach and reasons for doing so are ridiculously stupid and ill-informed. Does this bill deal only with illegal immigracy from mexico? That's what I want to know. Doesn't it deal with ALL illegal immigration? I'm going to start italicizing things i think are important because people seem to have problems understanding me. P.S. Can you at least answer some of the questions I posed, because some of them I'm not sure of the validity. Also, do you mind telling me what you think of the points? Thanks. |
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