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Sep 5th, 2003 10:38 PM

FartinMowler

Sep 5th, 2003 10:30 PM

Anonymous

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Isn't it wrong to lump the individual problems religions have into one? Or wrong to admonish a religion of it's problems because you want to appear compassionate? Only "some" of it's followers? Whatever this "some" total of followers is, they're enough of a number to be a real problem for a continent of people. I don't mean being a Muslim makes them a problem, I mean being a Muslim who believes women, gays, jews, christians, etc. should be treated as second class. This is the current climate in ALL Islamic countries. So that "some" is a lot. Turning your head and looking the other way isn't right. Singling out a religion is the unfortunate reality of this situation.

Alright, it seems I've been a little unclear. I'm not playing the role of the guy who wants everybody in the whole world to join hands and live in harmony. In that statement, I meant to say that it seemed as though a bunch (to use a different abstract concept than "some") of the people in the thread were going after Scru as though he had to answer for every Muslim nation that mistreats women, sends terrorists out into the world, etc. simply because he himself is a Muslim. I'm not defending said nations.

Sep 5th, 2003 09:32 PM

ScruU2wice

Quote:

Um. They were calling ME a feminazi for defending women

thats just as bad if not worse. the argument you made is one that needs to be made, and im glad that you expressed your views. eventhough it also clashes with what i was trying to say. the only thing that irritates me is how many people actually believe that islam IS evil and that muslims believe in a completely different god then they do. I really wish i could do more to stop these horrible things that are happening to women. and i wish people wouldn't do such horrible acts of terrorism in the name of islam. Im not gonna say that the laws of the country don't have faults and that they are right, but they're the laws of those countries and theres little you and i can do to change them. the only way we could change those laws is if we had an army of hafizas willing to change the way that they teach islam in those countries.

Sep 5th, 2003 05:23 PM

Abcdxxxx

Scru - Um. They were calling ME a feminazi for defending women.

Look, nobody wants you to say you're wrong for practicing the Muslim religion. At least I hope not. Practice any religion you want.

You want to know my problem with the Islamic religion? It tolerates the horrible things people do in it's name, and shrugs it off claiming only a few people are to blame. It minimizes a situation so prevelant it doesn't even need to be blown out of proportion. You have entire nations forcing Shari'a law on people, but you want to pretend it's just a few rotten apples. Nobody wants to take responsibility. You'd much rather say your religion is being attacked unfairly for actions that aren't representative as a whole, then be concerned that huge numbers of muslims hold what we commonly view as "extremist" beliefs.

Christians in Pakistan might share their anti-American views with Muslims, but they're not the ones actually making good on their words.

Dr. Boogie "The bottom line for me is that it isn't right to single out a religion as being wrong or evil because of how some of its followers choose to interpret its dogma."

Isn't it wrong to lump the individual problems religions have into one? Or wrong to admonish a religion of it's problems because you want to appear compassionate? Only "some" of it's followers? Whatever this "some" total of followers is, they're enough of a number to be a real problem for a continent of people. I don't mean being a Muslim makes them a problem, I mean being a Muslim who believes women, gays, jews, christians, etc. should be treated as second class. This is the current climate in ALL Islamic countries. So that "some" is a lot. Turning your head and looking the other way isn't right. Singling out a religion is the unfortunate reality of this situation.

Sep 5th, 2003 04:54 PM

ScruU2wice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

Just shut the fuck up femnazi

you can say whatever the fuck you want im not gonna roll over and say that everything in my religon is wrong and that im wrong for being a part of it. I've repeated over and over again i dont support what is happening to these women, but your blaming islam as a general for what a few people are doing. the koran like all holy books is being twisted around to make peoples points. I interpert things different then you and the same for you. the Bible is interperted differently by different poeple. Calling me a femnazi is just your way of wasting peoples times and vain attempt to be funny

edit: hollycaust, if you dont know alotta people all over the world hate america. i know christians and muslims in pakistan that think america is a disease on the world and we argue for hours about it, but what they see from the outside in is different from what we see from the inside out. its the culture not the religon.

Sep 5th, 2003 03:50 PM

imported_Hollycaust

Sep 5th, 2003 03:03 PM

Anonymous

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanette X

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Boogie

Perhaps they don't want to modernize because they feel it would be marring the word of god by changing the koran in any way.

Then no Christian country would ever modernize because many Christians believe the Bible to be infalliable.

Christians and Muslims are different. Different strokes for different folks, and all. Just because they believe that they shouldn't modernize doesn't automatically mean that Christians believe the same thing.

Edit: The bottom line for me is that it isn't right to single out a religion as being wrong or evil because of how some of its followers choose to interpret its dogma.

Sep 5th, 2003 02:53 AM

Blue

Just shut the fuck up femnazi

Sep 5th, 2003 12:18 AM

Abcdxxxx

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

i wish i wasn't talking about any country

Agreed.

Quote:

im saying that islam is being practiced here, without harrassment of women. so it is possible to practice islam without the mistreatment of women

Well, right. Which means there's no excuse for it.

Quote:

its the society that makes norms, and there societies evolved that way and i admit to us it seems primitive but thats the way they did. we can't judge societies without there perspective. That doesn't make there actions right, it's just we dont see it the way they do and they dont see it the way we do.

...But here you are trying to excuse it again. Obviously they think what they're doing is right - but that doesn't make it okay. We're not talking about a difference of tradition, we're talking about cultural evolution, and criminal acts on a specific gender.

You just got done saying one could practice Islam without all the misogyny.... and if that's the case then they should. Not because my values insist on it, but because the Muslim world isn't a seperatist island anymore. There *have* beena few examples of honor killings in the United States. In one instance, the Suadi government even attempted to step in and demand Shari'a law be applied to the case.

Sep 4th, 2003 09:02 PM

ScruU2wice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Africa? You wish we were just talking about Africa.

i wish i wasn't talking about any country

Quote:

Are you saying that you practice true Islam here in the States, while people are twisting things in Mecca of all places?

im saying that islam is being practiced here, without harrassment of women. so it is possible to practice islam without the mistreatment of women

Quote:

I'll ask it again - If the mistreatment of women within the Muslim community *worldwide* has nothing to do with the Koran, or the religion itself, then how can you explain why the mistreatment is so prevelant in these societies?

the bible doesn't condone pre-marital sex but many christians have sex before there married anyways... its the society that makes norms, and there societies evolved that way and i admit to us it seems primitive but thats the way they did. we can't judge societies without there perspective. That doesn't make there actions right, it's just we dont see it the way they do and they dont see it the way we do.

Sep 4th, 2003 05:28 PM

Abcdxxxx

Africa? You wish we were just talking about Africa.

Are you saying that you practice true Islam here in the States, while people are twisting things in Mecca of all places?

I'll ask it again - If the mistreatment of women within the Muslim community *worldwide* has nothing to do with the Koran, or the religion itself, then how can you explain why the mistreatment is so prevelant in these societies?

Sep 4th, 2003 05:03 PM

ScruU2wice

but they still practice the fundamental of islam, thats what i mean to say. Islam doesn't run on the oppression of women. I know some other countries twist the words of the koran and oppress women, but its not necessary to opress women in islam nor is it right. I can't do anything to stop the people in africa and whatever other nations you say treat women badly, besides practicing islam in a non-radical manner, which i do. I still conduct my life by the what the koran says and i haven't broken any laws hear...

Sep 4th, 2003 12:58 AM

Abcdxxxx

Scru - " How are muslims in america, canada, britan, and other countries practicing islam without beating their wives and harrasing women?"

Under western laws with a basis in Judeo-Christian "values". Under a more liberal and modernized atmosphere where Muslims use the Koran on a personal basis, rather then the rule of the land. If you commit an honor killing here, you go to jail. That's how.

Sep 3rd, 2003 05:13 PM

ScruU2wice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Okay well you seem to have gone from having no knowledge of these things, to thinking they just aren't happening....

i admitted that theses things were happening and they are horrible. What else should i say that im an evil human being for not personally changing everyones interpertation of the koran, or beating the crap out of all men who hit women. Sure that would be a wonderful thing, just find a way to make it feasible

Quote:

...Plus you think if women had equal rights it would "destroy a country/countries". Way to represent Islam.

I said if you dirastically change the way the countries laws it will be bad. If in america we dramactically changed the constitution everything would go in to chaos, changin anythign too fast is a bad move...

Quote:

You can't change the Koran, but you can change the way it's practiced and recognize the dangers of some of the language just as every other major religion has. I hope you see the difference.

I do practice the koran in unradical manner, but i do still practice the religon. How are muslims in america, canada, britan, and other countries practicing islam without beating their wives and harrasing women?

Sep 3rd, 2003 01:33 AM

Skulhedface

Unfortunately, while some of the people may be smart, the whole is incredibly stupid. No matter how hard you try not to stereotype, it will happen. Anyone with half a brain knows that there are just as many bad Christians as there are bad Muslims or whathaveyou, and we are just as guilty of it as they are. Whereas the Iraqis tend to see us as the Devil, we see them all as terrorists.

Bah... religion complicates things. That's why I believe it's better to just have morals and live them yourself than follow some belief structure and force it on everyone else.

Sep 3rd, 2003 01:27 AM

Abcdxxxx

Okay well you seem to have gone from having no knowledge of these things, to thinking they just aren't happening....

...Plus you think if women had equal rights it would "destroy a country/countries". Way to represent Islam.

You can't change the Koran, but you can change the way it's practiced and recognize the dangers of some of the language just as every other major religion has. I hope you see the difference.

Sep 2nd, 2003 11:15 PM

ScruU2wice

so if we were to lift all these policies darastically from saudia arabia and change everything to suit what you think is fair, would they be any better? that would basically be like destroying a country/ countries. I have no problem with small changes a lil bit. you haven't really made any suggestions beside change the words of the koran which would do way more harm then good.

btw when i went to mecca, woman did not need chaperons... :/

Sep 2nd, 2003 10:53 PM

Abcdxxxx

Do the research yourself. Don't take my word for it. Women are second class citizens in Saudi Arabia.

They are nearly always prohibited from working, they can't go out in public without wearing an abayya head to toe cloak, they can't travel without a male chaperone, and they're not allowed to drive. The muttawa'in (religious police) harrass them constantly. Unmarried women are the ward of their fathers, married women are the ward of their husbands. and a widowed woman is the ward of her sons. Women can't go to school, get an exit visa, or be admitted to a hospital without permission from that gaurdian. They're segregated in public to "family-only" areas or female restricted stores. A court room testimny from a woman is treated as inferior to a man's. Women make up half the student population, yet they're restricted from studying engineering, law or journalism. Yes, women convicted of adultry can be sentenced to stonings.

This isn't something made up by people who dislike religion or Muslims. These laws effect ALL Saudi women. ALL of them. If it's Mecca that's twisting and misrepresenting the Islamic religion, then that's a problem right? Where at the fatwas prohibiting the religious sanctions of this stuff?

Sep 2nd, 2003 08:53 PM

kahljorn

"How many Priests or Archbishops defend these crimes in the (international) court of law as a religious freedom?"

Only the one's who touch small children :O

Besides, stoning people and quartering them for not paying their taxes is all "Righteous" there. It's in the laws, a completely different Government, you can't judge them by our standards.

Notice how many seem to think America is evil as well. This is not necessarily about "Government", but over there their Religion and Government are basically the same thing.

Sep 2nd, 2003 08:29 PM

ScruU2wice

ive heard of no women being stoned to death or killed in saudia arabia for pre-marital sex or adultry. I haven't heard of any but if you can cite some, i wil admit im wrong. But i was aiming more toward the countries in africa who stone women to death.

Sep 2nd, 2003 08:01 PM

Abcdxxxx

Scru - "Any country with a well structured government like saudia arabia doesn't have stonings and other types of laws that sentence women to death for adultry and such things"

Was this a typo? Saudi Arabia is one of the worst offendors.

Sep 2nd, 2003 05:09 PM

ScruU2wice

ok im not saying we should downplay any of this stuff, abcdxxx. And if i did in my other posts im sorry. but your other posts made it sound like the whole muslim world were wife beaters and oppressed women. And sadly ive met people who think this is the case

The solution is with the people and not changing the words of the koran. Changing the words of the koran is absolutely not an option... Changing the words of the Koran would be considered probably one of the highest degrees of blasphemy. So no matter what you say or bomb or destroy the word of the koran should not and will not be changed.

some of the stuff that happens in these places are horrible, i admit. Judy hearing about it makes me want to hit some one. If i could change the way people interpert the koran i would. But the reality of the matter is that these countries are poorly governed. Any country with a well structured government like saudia arabia doesn't have stonings and other types of laws that sentence women to death for adultry and such things. Part of the problem you have to admit is the governing of these countries...

Sep 2nd, 2003 03:39 PM

Blue

Quote:

h'bout the slavery

Wasnt america built like this? Nearly every religious group is just interested in one thing you have and it isn't faith.

Sep 2nd, 2003 03:00 PM

Anagram

What I'm trying to say is that because bad things happen in the name of Islam doesn't mean that Islam is evil, Muslims are satanic death crusaders and the Qu'ran is Medieval hate mail.

There's a lot of barbaric stuff going on in the Middle East and beyond, but the answer isn't to "bomb their countries, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity". I'm not some grea liberal or moderate, I just try to apply a bit of common sense to everything.

Sep 2nd, 2003 02:59 PM

Abcdxxxx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

Just as many christians beat there wives as muslims.

OK, so it's tied even on the wife beating...h'bout the slavery, stoning, forced nuptials, mutilation, and honor killings?

How many Priests or Archbishops defend these crimes in the (international) court of law as a religious freedom?

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