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| Mar 26th, 2004 09:03 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
I'll grant you all of that. The warm, fuzzy liberal in me would like to think that they're all Palestinians. We know that that probably isn't the case. But the fact that the Christian (and Druze?) relationship with the PA is sketchy and uneasy doesn't change the fact that they are now a part of the dynamic there, and probably would be in any sort of state set up. |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 06:42 PM | ||||
| Abcdxxxx |
If there are Palestinian Christians then there are Palestinian Jews, and Jewish residents of Gaza are entitled to call themselves Palestinians too. My understanding is that the Pal title was put on the Christians of Bethlehem when the PA took control, and they were told "you're Palestinians now". I don't think the climate is very comfortable for them, and like Hasidic Jews of Israel, they follow a different framework of nationalism altogether. It's conveniant politically for the PA to say "they're with us, we're diverse, the church is sacred to Palestinians too" but if you believe in a Palestinian as a nationality, with it's own language, culture, etc. then the Christians out there aren't really a part of all that. The other things is the majority of Christians were driven out entirely when the religious sites were trasnfered to the PA, and the Muslim community there has nearly taken over Bethlehem, planning construction for a massive Mosque. Anyway historically Christians have always been Christian, and it's only recently that they've been given a Palestinian Christian title. |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 05:43 PM | ||||
| Ant10708 | Oh okay. | |||
| Mar 26th, 2004 03:49 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore | Forgive me, I meant Palestinian Christians. | |||
| Mar 26th, 2004 03:08 PM | ||||
| Ant10708 |
"There are Christian muslims, too." Does that even make sense? |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 12:38 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
Quote:
What the hell do you want from me, exactly, Kevin? I already aplogized for any insensitivity in the comment. Are you looking for groveling here or are you just trying to annihilate my character? I really don't want to argue with you any more over this, so can we please just kindly drop it? |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 12:35 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
"My comment was meant to be nothing more than a snide callback to previous posts in other threads that, as far as I'm concerned, minimized the Palestinians' culpability in the conflict. It wasn't meant to paint all muslims as evil monsters; you just read into it that way so you could attack me more easily." No, I read the words you typed and responded. Brandon, do you believe that there are ANY Palestinians who would prefer non-violent measures against Israel??? "And seriously, fuck you and your "relevant" straw man. I don't deserve your shit just because I disagree with you on this issue. You seriously need to examine what kind of comments YOU'VE been making before you start labeling people as "zealots."" It's not a mere disagreement. I think you'd find we agree on several matters pertaining to this conflict (which I in fact began to list out in the post that got cut off). Furthermore, I'd challenge you to point out comments I've made that would classify as extremist. I don't know that I made a blanket indictment against the Israeli "leadership," nor did I make a flippant comment over whether or not Israelis wanted peace seriously enough. I also never said that the Palestinians have done everything nice possible, and the Israelis in fact everything bad. I also didn't say "still waiting for the Jewish Ghandi" in reference to the IDF. So before you make any claims of who is this and who is that, you damn well better back it up. |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 12:27 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
Quote:
But I'll admit: it was careless. I apologize if it was insensitive to muslims. However, I'm not on the record either, and I figured the political correctness police weren't out to bust heads on the I-Mockery message boards. And seriously, fuck you and your "relevant" straw man. I don't deserve your shit just because I disagree with you on this issue. You seriously need to examine what kind of comments YOU'VE been making before you start labeling people as "zealots." |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 11:49 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
"If I tried their would be no contest seeing how Brandon has already wiped out your entire argument." -Naldo In other words, you have no ideas on moving toward peace. Don't feel bad, neither does the administration. |
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| Mar 26th, 2004 09:32 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
ABC- you asked me to show you where they are, go stand with them. Rather than encouraging them, you have chosen to belittle them as whatever. I appreciate your cynicism, but you asked a question, and I answered it. I'd rather not paint the Palestinians in quite the broad stroke you and Brandon have. Brandon- YOU are a straw man. You are a funny little straw man. From now on, whenever you post, happy little thoughts of Ray Bolger dancing and singing Ïf I only had a brain" will be playing in my head. Brandon, if you truly don't espouse the things I've claimed, that all muslims must be terror loving, jew killing monsters, then prove it. Your "muslim ghandi" comment was either careless, crude, or uninformed. Which one was it? EDIT: Most of my post got cut off.  Brandon, more directly to the point, I feel that my so called "strawman" was very relevant. Raygun posted this story to attack an entire group of people, not merely a small faction of their "leadership." Why does he do this? He does this in order to rationalize "kicking the crap out of them," or whatever you called the Israeli approach. I was once quite partisan on this issue, as ABC well knows. I have become much more suppprtive of Israel, and very cynical when it comes to the "plight" of the Palestinians (as compared to other Arab nations). However, I feel that you band ABC are the exact opposite. You paint the Palestinians as unyielding, unreasonable, etc., and yet see Israel and Israelis as unquestionably giving and reasonable. I'm certain they are. Go to a settlement with IDF soldiers, ask THOSE Israelis to compromise, be agreeable, and you will get a struggle. Perhaps violence. Does this compare to a suicide bomb on a public bus? Of course not. But my overall point is that you seem to approach this with a zealotry that has only furthered tensions and conflict rather than resolving it. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 09:49 PM | ||||
| Abcdxxxx |
Kevin - The article's interesting, and works for a quick rebutal, but It's not much more then a gesture in the right direction. This sentence: "The group called on the public to "rise again in a peaceful, wise Intefadeh (uprising)." says it all. More uprisings. Against Israel, not Hamas. It's a swirve to redirect and refocus that anger towards Israel to instigate more violence. Same old, same old. It's signed by same usual suspects that have always pretended to deplore suicide bombings while actively organizing them at the same time. They act like it's a mystery how these things occur. That this violence is the result of a groundswell of desperation. They never explain high end weapons grade explosives, the family rewards, or strategic planning, and training that goes into such actions, because they're implicated by it. I'd like to say this means something, but this is probably the fourth time the Palestinians have gone through these motions after some embarassing event. They take turns pointing the finger at one another but they never really step up. What's one letter in a PA newspaper amongst hundreds of posters celebrating the murders? A real step will be when they march through every Palestinian town, and tear down all those posters, and shut down all the suicide training camps. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 07:54 PM | ||||
| Ronnie Raygun |
If I tried their would be no contest seeing how Brandon has already wiped out your entire argument. What fun would there be in that? |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 07:19 PM | ||||
| mburbank |
I'm not painting you with anything. Other people can react however they choose. Naldo, what would it be like if you made an effort? I mean, muck in before someone mistakes your laziness for impairment and tries to strap a bomb to you. I don't want to see a photo of you stripped to you undershorts on your knees in front of Israeli soldiers. My heart couldn't take it. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 06:27 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
No, Kevin, a "straw man" makes an opponent or his argument into an extreme, easy to attack substitute. You turned a tongue-in-cheek quip about the Islamic Gandhi into a full-scale condemnation of muslims everywhere. That's a straw man. And Max, I'm sorry if I'm getting hostile, but I was sensing that I was starting to get painted with the "psycho hawk" brush, and it couldn't be further from the truth. I'm usually with you on foreign policy; I believe peaceful solutions are inherently better than violent ones, and I always think that military action should be the last resort or only used in extreme cases. The problem with the Israeli/Palestinian issue, though, is that since 1948, Israel has used every conceivable method of ending the conflict; some of the peaceful, some of them not. Israel has dealt with fairly regular instances of terrorism, as well as fighting five or so wars in its short history, so I just can't condemn them morally when I hear they're assasinating terrorist leaders. Bloodshed is never "glorious" by any means, but Israel is really in dire straits. They've been in dire straits since the founding of the country. And I think it may be fallacious reasoning to suggest that the logical consequence of these new policies is the wholesale elimination of all Palestinians. Granted, new terrorists will surface, but every Palestinian won't inevitably turn into a terrorist. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 04:55 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
A "straw man"argument, typically, means that someone is attempting to divert the point. I directly addressed your point. Palestinians are not merely muslims, either. There are Christian muslims, too. There are different sects of Islam. Not all muslims are Palestinians. Not all Palestinians are muslims. Not all muslims and/or Palestinians participate in terrorist activities coordinated by groups such as Fatah, Hamas, Al-Aksa (sic), Hezbollah, etc. In fact, you clearly avoided the crux of my previous post so you throw out your own starw argument. There are other economic and political factors that produce terrorism, NOT merely a religion. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 04:31 PM | ||||
| Ronnie Raygun |
"I think this situation has moved beyond "good guys" and "bad guys" to an "us" and "them" scenario. It sounds so fucking noble and enlightened to say that Israel isn't trying hard enough to create peace, but they're the only ones who seem to recognize that these extremists, no matter how many negotiations are made, no matter how much pressure is placed on them by their more moderate companions, will never cease to attempt a violent overthrow of Israel. It's about self-preservation. Call them hawks if you like, but then, you've never dealt with many suicide bombings up there in Salem now, have you? And why do I support Israel in this brawl? Because they represent democracy in the fight against totalitarianism, fundamentalism, and theocracy. In short, they're the American equivalent in the Middle East." - AF Well said. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 04:11 PM | ||||
| ScruU2wice |
Ok, from what i read i didn't think that the kid was mentally challenge, i thought Ronnie just said that to emphasize how stupid the kid was. So is the kid actually mentally handicapped or just stupid, i can't tell anymore 
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| Mar 25th, 2004 03:56 PM | ||||
| mburbank |
Jump Back Brandon. I haven't experienced terrorism in Salem. I'm sorry if I in some way implied I had. If you've experienced it 'up your ass' (your stated location) than I certainly bow to your experience of terrorism, though that doesn't mean I have to embrace your conclusions. Go to my road map to peace thread and weigh in. I'm not sure what you think Israel should do. If you honestly believe (and lots of people do in every war) that it's 'us' and 'them', why not favor a final solution and endorse the erradication or forced removal of the palestinians? And if you don't endorse that, what do you endorse? Just as I support America but don't endorse it's current government, I can and do support the existence of Israel, but not it's current leaders or policies. There are Jews in Israel who feel the same way, a significant minority perhaps, but perfectly legitimate. I don't believe in killing people. I'm sorry, I don't. Would that say to you that I support terrorism? What with their killing people and all? I'll tell you what, though, firing rocket from a helicopter into an apartment building is pretty damn terrifying. Warfare is about terrorism. If you insist that I pick the side I think is less to blame, less evil, I pick Israel. If God said to me, hey, everyone on one side has to die or this will never end, I'd pick the Palestinians, right after I pointed out what fucked up God a choice like that made him. That is precisely why I feel Israel is obliged to do the bulk of the work here. BECAUSE they are less evil, BECAUSE they are more sane. But we're going round in circles. Go to the other thread and weigh in, even if it's just to say Status quo, eye for an eye till everybodies blind. I think that's a hopeless dead end, and maybe it isn't what you're suggesting, but I don't know what you or bcdxxertsreytra, are suggesting. And untwist your knickers. I like you, I have no problem with you having a different opinion, and I'm talking to you reasonably. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 03:37 PM | ||||
| Brandon |
Quote:
Quote:
And why do I support Israel in this brawl? Because they represent democracy in the fight against totalitarianism, fundamentalism, and theocracy. In short, they're the American equivalent in the Middle East. |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 03:14 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 10:40 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
Thanks, Kev. Brandon, fundamentalist Hinduhs can be a pretty savage lot. They are prticularly fond of setting people on fire. Somehow Ghandi came. You say you are waiting for the Palestinain Ghandi cynically, as if it;s impossible. I actively pray for the arrival of a Palestinain Ghandi, and I don't think it's impossible at all. Now, that being said, I'm going to go out on a limb here. Tarring and feathering all terrorists with the brush of using a retarded kid as a bomb is outrageous. I'm certain that most sucicde bombers deplore the use of retarded children, and most terrorists deplore this vile act. Why do I think this? Simple. Since I think the Israelis play some role in the conflict I'm forced to be actively pro terrorist. In fact, secretly, I think it's great they tried to use a retarded kid as a bomb and I'm just sorry it didn't work, but I'm ashamed to admit it. Why? becuase having a nuanced view of anything is pretty much impossible, and when it does happen it's loathsome. Listen, this is how the world works: There's good guys, who are always right and admirable and everything they do is acceptable up to and including accidentally blowing little kids to bits when their shooting at other people. Then there are bad guys and everything they do is wrong and if they do anything that looks right, like forming a peace organization, it's just a dirty trick to fool you. Since I feel the Israelis could do a better job, I plainly am on the side of evil and what I really mean is that I favor the forces of darkness and want the world to be overun by demons as soon as possible. I particularly look forward to the day I feast on Naldo's still living flesh. APEASEMENT NOW. APEASMENT FOREVER! GOOOOOOO TERRORISTS! |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 10:31 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
Thanks, Kev. Brandon, fundamentalist Hinduhs can be a pretty savage lot. They are prticularly fond of setting people on fire. Somehow Ghandi came. You say you are waiting for the Palestinain Ghandi cynically, as if it;s impossible. I actively pray for the arrival of a Palestinain Ghandi, and I don't think it's impossible at all. Now, that being said, I'm going to go out on a limb here. Tarring and feathering all terrorists with the brush of using a retarded kid as a bomb is outrageous. I'm certain that most sucicde bombers deplore the use of retarded children, and most terrorists deplore this vile act. Why do I think this? Simple. Since I think the Israelis play some role in the conflict I'm forced to be actively pro terrorist. In fact, secretly, I think it's great they tried to use a retarded kid as a bomb and I'm just sorry it didn't work, but I'm ashamed to admit it. Why? becuase having a nuanced view of anything is pretty much impossible, and when it does happen it's loathsome. Listen, this is how the world works: There's good guys, who are always right and admirable and everything they do is acceptable up to and including accidentally blowing little kids to bits when their shooting at other people. Then there are bad guys and everything they do is wrong and if they do anything that looks right, like forming a peace organization, it's just a dirty trick to fool you. Since I feel the Israelis could do a better job, I plainly am on the side of evil and what I really mean is that I favor the forces of darkness and want the world to be overun by demons as soon as possible. I particularly look forward to the day I feast on Naldo's still living flesh. APEASEMENT NOW. APEASMENT FOREVER! GOOOOOOO TERRORISTS! |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 10:02 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
My response was directed at your snide and uninformed commentary on it. You use a small sect of murderers to demonize an entire people and religion. Yes, Islam as a whole has been, in a sense, hijacked by radicals. But muslim nations have not only been hijacked by radical Islam, but also governmental corruption, tyrany, oppression, and greed. It's not merely coincidental that many of the more liberal muslims you'll likely meet happen to live in liberal democracies, or at the very least more open and free societies. p.s.-- you can read the articled linked below, too. Quote:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...l_palestinians |
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| Mar 25th, 2004 09:07 AM | ||||
| Cosmo Electrolux | fundamentalism of any type is dangerous...christian, muslim, hindu...they're all subhuman trash. | |||
| Mar 25th, 2004 02:46 AM | ||||
| DamnthatDavid |
I swear, that religion is one of the most fucked up things, right up their with the Mormon's "I lost 2 Golden Tablets sent by God." Cowards using children. Bah... And they have the guts to call us the Western Satans. |
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