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| Nov 22nd, 2004 08:11 PM | ||||
| Preechr |
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| Nov 22nd, 2004 06:43 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
You should just do what I do. Just read the first paragraph, the concluding paragraph, and then assume that all the stuff inbetween is about the government sucking away our ambitions, and all that stuff. j/k!!! |
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| Nov 22nd, 2004 03:57 PM | ||||
| kellychaos |
Preechr is very wordy ... yet mellifluous.
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| Nov 22nd, 2004 08:04 AM | ||||
| Preechr | Back to Fallujia... | |||
| Nov 22nd, 2004 07:44 AM | ||||
| Preechr |
Damn. Trying to avoid saying something that might piss people off made what I did say mushy... I deleted the portion of that tirade that started off with "The closest thing to classical liberalism left in this country is called, sadly, neo-conservatism..." because I didn't want to get flamed by a Canadian, but then I read this: Happy Thanksgiving The case for unusually cheerful pessimism. by William Kristol 11/29/2004, Volume 010, Issue 11 WE'RE CHEERFUL. Why not? Bush won. And he won while hanging tough in Iraq. There was no talk of exit strategies, no phony promises that we were soon going to draw down our troop levels, no minimizing of the difficulties of the road that lay ahead. There was only the promise that we would continue to shoulder our responsibilities and do our duty. The president presented himself for the judgment of the American people with 150,000 troops in the field, taking real casualties and on the verge of launching a major offensive. The people didn't flinch. They showed fortitude and judgment, sticking with Bush and the difficult path he has chosen, a path in some respects made more difficult by mistakes his administration had made, but not one his opponent could be counted on to follow to success. So the election was good news. And the two-and-a-half weeks since have provided more good news. Bush is determined to take control of his administration. He has thought through his second-term personnel and policy agendas. He seems determined to fix the dysfunctional relationship between Defense and State that too often hampered the execution of his foreign policy in the first term. Moving Condoleezza Rice to State was the indispensable start. Strong deputies at State and the National Security Council should be next--deputies who can work with Rice and new national security adviser Stephen Hadley, and who know how to make the institutions work in accord with Bush's policy. Backing up the efforts of Porter Goss to shake up the Central Intelligence Agency will also be important. What remains to be done is to announce new leadership for the Department of Defense. This, surely, would be an opportunity for a strong, Bush Doctrine-supporting outsider, someone who of course would be a team player, but someone who could also work with the military and broaden support for the president's policy. Is John McCain, or Rudy Giuliani, or Joe Lieberman too much to hope for? Meanwhile, the offensive in Falluja has gone better than expected, and we are following up in Mosul, Ramadi, and elsewhere as necessary. The president is clearly resolved to mobilize all available military, political, and diplomatic resources to bring off elections in Iraq, and successfully to prosecute the larger war on terror and hasten the transformation of the Middle East. We know that Bush has been reading Natan Sharansky's fine new book, The Case for Democracy. He's acting as though Alexander Hamilton is on his reading list, too. The "test of a good government," Hamilton argued in The Federalist, "is its aptitude and tendency to produce a good administration." And, he famously noted, "energy in the executive is a leading character in the definition of good government"; "that unity is conducive to energy will not be disputed"; a "feeble executive" is often made so by division within it; "a feeble executive...is but another phrase for a bad execution"; "and a government ill executed, whatever it may be in theory, must be, in practice, a bad government." As chief executive, since his reelection, President Bush has acted with the kind of "decision, activity, secrecy, and despatch" that Hamilton called for. Obviously a huge amount remains to be done. Obviously mistakes will be made. Obviously reality will provide its nasty comeuppances. Intellectually, it's always safer to be a pessimist than an optimist. But Bush's conduct in office since his reelection allows us, at least for now, to be unusually cheerful pessimists. --William Kristol © Copyright 2004, News Corporation, Weekly Standard, All Rights Reserved. Wild Bill's been all "Say No to Kerry!!!" throughout the election campaigns, notably side-stepping a rousing embrace of the Bush record. Only after the better of the two incompetents successfully cons the public into rewarding his sub-par history and the main threat to our world's future has been avoided does he launch into the demands for improvement in the government we're left holding. Good stuff. Praise for the pigeonholing of Condi, who was a terrible NSA, as well as prodding for both a concrete assignment for Goss and a replacement for the detrimental efforts of a contentious Rumsfeld. |
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| Nov 22nd, 2004 07:19 AM | ||||
| Preechr |
I didn't want my criticism to be insulting, but I suppose it's hard for that not be taken that way. There's a difference between what America does and what all governments will do given enough power, though the line is fading. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that's exactly why I'm such a big fan of extremely limited government. All of the world's historical great powers have become abusive. It's just the nature of things, so I'll not try to convince you that being jaded is inappropriate. The only hope I have for this country is in the theory under which it was founded, which can only be found in books these days. The America of it's founders' imagination no longer exists, but that it once did promises that it might one day be possible to build again. Do I have a lot of faith that this will happen? No. Unfortunately much of our future now lies in the hands of an electorate bred by it's leaders to serve them under the guise of serving themselves. Even though our original independence from England would have been blocked by a popular vote among the colonists... We were LED into it by those of us who knew better than the rest of us... that was a minority that opposed authoritarian rule. For a modern minority of Americans to lead the majority off the teat of the nanny state would require uninstalling a "Democracy," or at least the appearance of one. The description of this country's government as a Democracy is why I hate FDR... Well, one of the many reasons... He was the original tyrant posing as a liberal. True liberals champion the minority and would only ever oppose Democracy, which despite all it's modern hype is simply just a fancy word for mob-rule. It's a huge lie that Democracy is the same thing as representative government. Ben Franklin said as he left the last session of the Constitutional Congress that we had begun "a Republic, if you can keep it." We didn't keep it. It's was eagerly traded off for the politics of oppressive self-interest as soon as the opportunities began to present themselves. This all likely seems tangential, but this is the mindset behind my original comment. You said you're not a liberal or a progressive, and that I'll agree with and commend you for saying it. You're a cynic with a damn good reason for being so, but being cynical doesn't fix the things that hurt you... In fact, it only opens you up to more damage. Cynicism is just another form of passive acceptance. That's not a criticism, either. I sway between cynicism and idealism, neither of which is very productive. The America we're offering to Iraq is about the same thing as the America you'll find in the Phillipines: marginally better than the system it replaced but still a long way from what it's name should imply. We can hardly export something we don't actually have here anymore, now can we? Ok, now this truly has become a tangent... Long story short, we should commend and praise the good things when they're accomplished and condemn that which is destructive. Ousting Saddam was undeniably a good thing. The events surrounding that could obviously benefit from some improvement, but those that choose to see it all as painted black aren't helping anyone. |
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| Nov 21st, 2004 02:00 PM | ||||
| conus |
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Regarding progressive assertations that governments should “never be allowed to change for the good,” in my experience these for-the-good changes only happen when when the puppet-dictator is no longer useful. The U.S. government’s motives are never altruistic. If the common good of the citizens of any of these countries happens to coincide with American business/military interests, then fine—they’ll exploit that to the hilt. But, in the end, it doesn’t matter how many civilians have to die, if that is deemed necessary in order for them to achieve their goals. I love the “crying over spilt milk” remark. That, better than anything I could have dreamed up, typifies American livingroom analysis of situations in which human beings are destroyed on a daily basis. Spilt milk. I’m not an armchair liberal with views based on information that came from PBS or out of the pages of a book. I’m not a progressive, or a liberal or anything else. I’m just somebody who has lived through the horror America creates. I’m still an American on paper, but that’s where it stops. I retain my citizenship, because in the past it’s been convenient for me to carry an American passport; I have no qualms about using this country for whatever I can get out of it. I know there’s nothing positive about my perspective, but, again, it is a perspective rooted in experience. |
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| Nov 21st, 2004 07:53 AM | ||||
| Preechr |
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It's funny and sad to see so-called "progressives" asserting that a government should never be allowed to change for the good. Hearing this or something like it said tells you a lot about the person allowing it to flop out their mouth: Mostly that their political views are religiously insulated from reality or opposing ideas, which is odd coming from a group generally considered to be comprised of thinkers. There was more I think I wanted to add, but maybe everyone should just read kelly's post again. I doubt my opinion can be trusted this early on a freakin Sunday... |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 05:14 PM | ||||
| Ant10708 |
Thanks for clearly it up. And you're right that even deaths under Saddam are partially our fault. 
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| Nov 20th, 2004 04:12 PM | ||||
| conus |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 04:10 PM | ||||
| conus |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 02:09 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
I was trying to be funny.
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| Nov 20th, 2004 02:05 PM | ||||
| Anonymous |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 01:42 PM | ||||
| kellychaos | Although I hate the fact we're there as much as anyone, the fact is that we ARE and we have to make the best of it. All else is inconstructive "crying over spilled milk". We're in it too deep to back off now even as ill-equipped as we are, else, those that have fought on either side have died in vain. If you don't like the pictures, then don't look at them. They are just the facts of a war that's going to continue to some end regardless of how you feel about it. Not because I have any love for Bush, but just because I want a good outcome for the people of Iraq and the american armed services, do I support giving our soldiers full support both emotionally and in terms of physical support. | |||
| Nov 20th, 2004 01:17 PM | ||||
| Ant10708 |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 12:05 PM | ||||
| davinxtk |
This might be an incredibly stupid question, but how did Clinton screw the Democrats over? Am I missing something? |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 11:57 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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"Kofi Annan Screwing UN Like Clinton Screwed His Party" Ronnie Raygun: "...thanks to our "allies" including good ole' Kofi at he U.N. ... and now they are trying to take a page out of Clinton's playbook and block the investigation so we can't find out which individuals are responsible." Do we see the language association here, folks? Do we wanna believe that Ronnie was clever enough, all by himself, to turn a UN internal investigation into a shot at Bill Clinton? Don't bank on it..... |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 11:43 AM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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The reason we talk about the problems is because the problems are crucial. It's great that Iraq has the "promise" of a free society now, but that's not why we were misled over there, was it Ronnie? The reason the negative must be focused on is because liars like yourself, who listen to Rush Limbaugh and worship Sean Hannity, will lie, exaggerate, and mislead your fellow Americans every chance you get if it means you can advance your Party agenda. You did it in the build up to war, you've done it during the war, and you'll continue to do it. That's why. |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 11:32 AM | ||||
| davinxtk |
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And you know, it might be something to boast about if 14 of the 18 different sections of Iraq were consistently ready to hold elections -- but isn't this thread about losing control in one part while we try to control another? Does anyone else get a picture of Dondald Duck sticking every possible digit into a brand new hole on a leaking rowboat? And when we run out of American bodies to cover the holes with, what next? Does the place sink on its own, or do we flip out Donald Duck-style and smash the thing entirely, only to end up sinking ourselves? Also, don't you remember what happened in Afghanistan? Didn't everyone except the candidate with strong ties to our own government claim that their election was a farce? I mean, I know sand ******s can barely tell which end of the rocket launcher to point towards the enemy, but you'd think they'd be able to figure out which marker was permanent and which washed off on their own. Ronnie "Mission Accomplished!" Raygun. Ronnie "MY FINGERS ARE IN MY EARS LALALALALALA" Raygun. Also, could someone else explain to him why the UN might be funding the insurgency? You know, since they told us we shouldn't be there in the first place and all, you'd think they'd be backing us up right now. Right guys? USA!? USA! |
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| Nov 20th, 2004 11:30 AM | ||||
| Ant10708 | How is Iraq split up into 18 sections? Cities? | |||
| Nov 20th, 2004 10:13 AM | ||||
| Ronnie Raygun |
"As with all things violent and essentially unjustifiable: our tax dollars at work." - Preech More than you know.....now that it's been discovered that our tax dollars are being used to fund the insurgency in Iraq thanks to our "allies" including good ole' Kofi at he U.N. ... and now they are trying to take a page out of Clinton's playbook and block the investigation so we can't find out which individuals are responsible. If those pics are a surprise to some of you I wouldn't be shocked....Keep in mind that many many many more innocents died in wars before the "USA USA USA" decided to invest billions in smart weapons to minimize innocent casualties. When is the last time any of you pointed to the good things happening in Iraq...Like the fact that 14 of the 18 different sections of Iraq are ready to hold elections TODAY. |
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| Nov 19th, 2004 08:35 PM | ||||
| davinxtk |
The most offensive part of any of those pictures, to me, is that some jackass at getty images decided to watermark some of them so that they can't be used elsewhere. 'OUR PICTURES OF WAR ATROCITIES. NOT YOURS. OURS.' That made me want to throw up. The atrocities I can deal with, but only because I've seen similar pictures hundreds of times over. It's the fact that they're so territorial about that sort of subject matter that makes me want to lose my lunch. |
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| Nov 17th, 2004 06:52 AM | ||||
| Dole |
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| Nov 17th, 2004 06:06 AM | ||||
| Anonymous |
That's a good American. You get a biscuit, too, if you voted W. |
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| Nov 16th, 2004 08:30 PM | ||||
| Ant10708 | I would still bet more innocent people were killed under Saddam's rule then the current chaos in Iraq. I could be wrong and I could care less. | |||
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