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Topic Review (Newest First)
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| Feb 12th, 2004 08:24 PM | |
| sspadowsky | Turn on CNN, Ronnie. Oh, and read my post just before yours. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 08:23 PM | |
| Ronnie Raygun | Well, you people have been saying that he didn't have to be there for to get paid......unless he took his teeth out I think it's fair to say that he was there when you people said he wasn't. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 08:22 PM | |
| sspadowsky |
Except for the gaps in his attendance records, the fact that multiple high-ranking officers who served at those bases say they don't ever remember seeing him there, the fact that his commanding officer couldn't do an annual evaluation on him because the CO had not seen him AT ALL for the 12-month period in question, and the fact that, after over four years of searching, Bush & Co. have found virtually no one who can say they served with him. You're right. Such a flimsy case. What was I thinking? |
| Feb 12th, 2004 08:15 PM | |
| The One and Only... | You probably should, considering there is no evidence to support you. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 08:14 PM | |
| sspadowsky | Boy. Dental records! By God, that's every bit as conclusive as those payroll records. And those dental records, just like the payroll records, could never, ever be altered or misleading in any way. Well, I guess we can close the book on this one, guys. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 08:05 PM | |
| Ronnie Raygun |
Here are dental records from the base in Alabama that prove he was there. -------------------- http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...4575.htmPosted on Thu, Feb. 12, 2004 MILITARY SERVICE Biting back: Bush dental records revealed BY WILLIAM DOUGLAS bdouglas@krwashington.com WASHINGTON - As Democrats continued to raise questions about President Bush's Vietnam-era military service, the White House late Wednesday night released 1973 dental records to show that Bush was on duty with the Air National Guard in Alabama. Bush's White House physician also issued a statement saying that he reviewed recently obtained copies of Bush's medical and dental records from 1968 to 1973 and saw nothing medically that would have disqualified Bush from his duties. The White House didn't release the medical records but did provide Bush's Jan. 6, 1973, dental records -- complete with dental chart -- from when he was stationed at Dannelly Air National Guard Base near Montgomery, Ala. With the release, White House officials sought to eliminate questions about whether Bush's health was involved in any way in the alleged gaps in his military service. Air Force Col. Richard J. Tubb, who is Bush's White House physician, said he examined the Air National Guard medical records and concurred with the examining doctors at the time that Bush ``was fit for entry into officer training school, fit for undergraduate pilot training and fit for continued flying duties through his last annual flight physical, which expired on July 6, 1972.'' ''The records reflect no disqualifying medical information,'' Tubb said. White House press secretary Scott McClellan, in a separate statement, said administration officials received the records early Wednesday night from the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver. McClellan earlier criticized Democrats for reigniting the military issue. ''I think what you are seeing is gutter politics,'' he said. ``Some are simply trolling for trash for political gain. I certainly hope that this level of discourse is not a reflection of what the American people can expect from the Democratic Party over the duration of the campaign.'' --------------------- Happy now? OF COURSE NOT!!!! |
| Feb 12th, 2004 06:56 PM | |
| Ronnie Raygun |
"and noone at the base for that period has come forward to collaborate the President's story?" - Ror Damn! Would you want to? Would you want to democratic party smearing your entire life in the press and on t.v. every night? I know I wouldn't. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 04:39 PM | |
| kellychaos |
Summary: Yes, there were a whole lot of people joining the Air National Guard to get out of active duty in Vietnam but George Bush wasn't one of them because I know George Bush and you'll have to take my word for it. In other words, it's true because I said so. The End. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 02:51 PM | |
| mburbank |
Naldo, that essay you posted doesn't really shne much light, and while the author states his career paralelled W's, it sure doesn't seem that way. W. gave absolute minimal service. This guy is career military. He wasn't given leave, he was told to report in Alabama. Today there are Dental records being displayed by the whitehouse, so it looks as if he did show up. I'll certainly give W. the benefit of the doubt. He didn't 'miss' his physical by 'a month', he never took it, and he's given a bogus excuse about his personal physician being in Texas, when Personal physicians don't do army medical exams. He lost his certification, which our folks paid for him to get. Other people may have done all the same things, but other people suck too. I don't think it's a big deal. I just think it's pretty obvious that like a lot of things, W. isn't forthcoming. Your idea that W. is acting like a democrat only shows how little you know about democrats. But I totally understand. I always thought Clinton acted like a Republican. |
| Feb 12th, 2004 01:41 PM | |
| ranxer |
Palast interviews retired Lt. Colonel Bill Burkett of the Texas Air National Guard (TANG), who states on camera that shortly after George W. became Texas' governor in the 1990s, he witnessed a speakerphone call from the Texas governor's office to TANG, and overheard the caller tell Guard officers to "clean [Bush's] records from his files." Palast says that after the call, Burkett "asked the officers if they'd carried out the questionable orders, and they said 'absolutely.' They pointed, and Burkett saw in the [shredding designated] trashcan George W. Bush's ... pay [and retirement points] records." http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=238&row=1 maybe those were records proving he didn't miss a day :/ |
| Feb 12th, 2004 01:31 PM | |
| Cosmo Electrolux | this is Alabama...we have CHECKS... |
| Feb 12th, 2004 01:07 PM | |
| AChimp | The cheques haven't arrive yet, that's why. |
| Feb 11th, 2004 11:20 PM | |
| The_Rorschach | Why is it then that Brig. General Turnipseed, who captained Bush's unit in Alabama, has no recollection of him ever having arrived for duty, and noone at the base for that period has come forward to collaborate the President's story? |
| Feb 11th, 2004 09:07 PM | |
| Ronnie Raygun |
"Wait a minute, Ronnie. I thought you wanted Bush out of office anyway?"- Spad No. I want Bush to stay in office and stop acting like a democrat. "-what a moment in history for human achievement. Someone give this man a medal." - Dole It's not fair to imply that Bush ever asked for one....nor has anyone else. "He lost is flight privilidges bcuase he failed to show up for a physical. You know who paid to train him to fly a fighter? Your parents and mine. Other families sacrificed thir kids. W. could have at least taken his service seriously enough not to let his flight certification lapse. It's disrespectful, and it sure as hell isn't anything he ought to be proud of, as McLellan keeps insisting." - Max Maybe this will help clear things up.... ------------------- http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040...2910-8424r.htm 'Bush and I were lieutenants' George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch. It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping his military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention. The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers. If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with outside employment. The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Lt. Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into nonflying desk jobs. Any pilot could have left the Air Force or the Air Guard with ease after 1972 before his commitment was up because there just wasn't room for all of them anymore. Sadly, few of today's partisan pundits know anything about the environment of service in the Reserves in the 1970s. The image of a reservist at that time is of one who joined, went off for six months' basic training, then came back and drilled weekly or monthly at home, with two weeks of "summer camp." With the knowledge that Mr. Johnson and Mr. McNamara were not going to call out the Reserves, it did become a place of refuge for many wanting to avoid Vietnam. There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys. The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life. Critics such as Mr. Kerry (who served in Vietnam, you know), Terry McAuliffe and Michael Moore (neither of whom served anywhere) say Lt. Bush abandoned his assignment as a jet fighter pilot without explanation or authorization and was AWOL from the Alabama Air Guard. Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was excused for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and later in Alabama for a Senate campaign. Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders (as I later was) are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment. Sometimes they will transfer temporarily to another unit to keep them on the active list until they can return home. The receiving unit often has little use for a transitory member, especially in a high-skills category like a pilot, because those slots usually are filled and, if not filled, would require extensive conversion training of up to six months, an unlikely option for a temporary hire. As a commander, I would put such "visitors" in some minor administrative post until they went back home. There even were a few instances when I was unaware that they were on my roster because the paperwork often lagged. Today, I can't even recall their names. If a Lt. Bush came into my unit to "pull drills" for a couple of months, I wouldn't be too involved with him because I would have a lot more important things on my table keeping the unit combat ready. Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a required physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts: First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's weekend drill assembly — the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the individual is out of town on civilian business; etc. If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user. Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000. Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career parallels Lt. Bush's, except that I stayed on for 33 years. As a guardsman, I even got to serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of those with whom I served in those years never made their 30th birthdays because they died in crashes flying air-defense missions. While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar games with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who knows what inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North Atlantic and the shark-filled Gulf of Mexico. We were the pathfinders in showing that the Guard and Reserves could become reliable members of the first team in the total force, so proudly evidenced today in Afghanistan and Iraq. It didn't happen by accident. It happened because back at the nadir of Guard fortunes in the early '70s, a lot of volunteer guardsman showed they were ready and able to accept the responsibilities of soldier and citizen — then and now. Lt. Bush was a kid whose congressman father encouraged him to serve in the Air National Guard. We served proudly in the Guard. Would that Mr. Kerry encourage his children and the children of his colleague senators and congressmen to serve now in the Guard. In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are starting to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before disaster strikes. We say, "Knock it off." So, Mr. Kerry and your friends who want to slander the Guard: Knock it off. COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired) U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard Herndon, Va.5 ------------------------------ "He was a rich guy whose daddy knew the right people, pulled the right strings and, in general, played the game well in order to enable his son to still get an honorable discharge even after several unexplained absences. Is that anything new, really?" - Kelly There were no unexplained absences. It's all documented. It's just a political football... Nothing more. |
| Feb 11th, 2004 05:29 PM | |
| mburbank | Not at all. Running from the truth and lieing about it and saying he's proud of it, that's what the problem is. |
| Feb 11th, 2004 04:00 PM | |
| kellychaos | He was a rich guy whose daddy knew the right people, pulled the right strings and, in general, played the game well in order to enable his son to still get an honorable discharge even after several unexplained absences. Is that anything new, really? |
| Feb 11th, 2004 11:15 AM | |
| ranxer |
ditto! no doubt its not so much about missing guard duty that anyone else would get in trouble for but the fact that bush is misleading people about his record. as burb said if he'd just admit he was doing other things and that it was unfair to others in the guard this wouldnt be that big an issue. the other side of the problem is it seems like too many people are running around with this as some humongous issue.. its not compared to the long list of more important issues that he has misled us on. |
| Feb 11th, 2004 11:02 AM | |
| mburbank |
Here's my take. He never showed up in Alabama, but he did his ttoal hours for the guard, so they paid him and discharged him and didn't make waves becuase of who he was. That by itself is not a big deal. I'm sure a lot of folks sort of greased through at that point in time, and many of them did it becuase they were important people. The Vietnam war was a bad deal and however you kept from going is your own business. Carter pardoned the folks who went to Canada, I don't think W's sketchy performance is anything except kind of lame. BUT. He insists he served in Alabama. No one, not one single soul recalls this, and the administration has been looking since W. ran for governor of Texas. AND He lost is flight privilidges bcuase he failed to show up for a physical. You know who paid to train him to fly a fighter? Your parents and mine. Other families sacrificed thir kids. W. could have at least taken his service seriously enough not to let his flight certification lapse. It's disrespectful, and it sure as hell isn't anything he ought to be proud of, as McLellan keeps insisting. That being said, it was 30 years ago, and a man can change a hell of a lot in 30 years. Like his DUI which he admitted in the last election, if Bush woould simply step up, as he had in other instances and say "I wasn't much of a person bck then. I regret that, and I've grown." I wouldn't care. I still wouldn't vote for him, but this wouldn't make an iota of difference to me. It's the sleezy finger pointing way he handles it that speaks to his character. I'm going to copy this last part into other relevant threads. |
| Feb 11th, 2004 06:29 AM | |
| Helm | I'm sure they will. |
| Feb 11th, 2004 06:13 AM | |
| Dole |
"Bush credited for Guard drills " -what a moment in history for human achievement. Someone give this man a medal. |
| Feb 10th, 2004 10:38 PM | |
| sspadowsky | Wait a minute, Ronnie. I thought you wanted Bush out of office anyway? |
| Feb 10th, 2004 10:26 PM | |
| Ronnie Raygun |
So says the democrat who found the proof himself.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...drills?mode=PF |
| Feb 10th, 2004 10:23 PM | |
| KevinTheOmnivore | Says the Bush administration. |
| Feb 10th, 2004 10:18 PM | |
| Ronnie Raygun | The left has no proof that Bush did anything other than fulfill his duty and get an honorable discharge. |
| Feb 10th, 2004 08:49 PM | |
| Jeanette X |
Bush bravely kept Texas free of the Vietcong. Be grateful. 
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