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Jul 16th, 2003 12:51 AM
Abcdxxxx The Kurds are known for being the best fighters in the Middle East, and they work as guns for hire. The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan has a long standing feud with the Kurdistan Democratic Party, who joined up with Iraqi troops.

Some of it also goes back to wars against Iran, and the Turks.

It's confusing, but I think all this stuff is VERY relevant to forming an opinion based on something other then distrust and dissent.
Jul 15th, 2003 10:08 PM
Jeanette X I just can't understand how any Kurd would be pro-Iraq. Can you tell me more about the pro-Iraq Kurdish faction(s)?
Jul 15th, 2003 07:44 PM
Abcdxxxx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanette X
Wait...why would any Kurd be pro-Iraq, given the past history of atrocites enacted against them by Saddam? And why would any fundamentalist Kurd support Saddam, when he is not a fundamentalist?
Not all Kurds are anti-Iraq. Not all Kurds belong to the same faction.

Weren't you the one trying to call Saddam an equal opportunist mass murderer? I think you're confused.

Saddam wasn't some liberal or progressive leader, and his support/opposition wasn't as black and white as you seem to think. Remember that when Saddam stopped the coup attempt against him after the first Gulf War it was because of inside tip offs. Once again it's a case of "my brother, my enemy". To understand why Kurds, Bin Laden and Saddam would all work together you have to also ask yourself why Saddam and Iran would want to work together? Or Syria with Sadam? You don't have to agree or like your partners in terror to make deals with them, and use their resources.
Jul 15th, 2003 03:30 PM
Jeanette X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

If you believe there were Al Qarda training camps in pro-Iraq fundamentalist Kurdish towns of Biyar and Tawil in the shoman district of Norhtern Iraq -
Wait...why would any Kurd be pro-Iraq, given the past history of atrocites enacted against them by Saddam? And why would any fundamentalist Kurd support Saddam, when he is not a fundamentalist?
Jul 15th, 2003 02:30 PM
Abcdxxxx Nidal was sick. He was in Iraq to recieve treatments for a mild skin cancaer. He was trying ti retire...

...plus he was living undergound as one of the most wanted men alive , before popping up in Egypt around 1997. Pres. Mubarak hired him to fight Al Qaeda and Islamic Jihad, before they gained too much power. Even the Clinton White House backed the plan to try and turn the fundamentalist groups against each other. There's no proof, but it's been said that the Abu Nidal Organization worked alongside US Special Ops to clear out terrorist cells in prep for maneuvers in Kosovo.

In 2000. Nidal started double dealing, and selling intelligence on the US and Egypt, most likely to Al Qaeda itself, then took off for Iraq Clinton killed the CIA investigation into Nidal and Al Qaeda went ahead with 9/1 shortly after.

If you believe there were Al Qarda training camps in pro-Iraq fundamentalist Kurdish towns of Biyar and Tawil in the shoman district of Norhtern Iraq - then Nidal played the laison role between Saddam and the Al Qada. He would have been killed for knowing too much, and to send a message to Yassar Arafat and others who might want to deal with the US. A terrorist by the name of Abu Iyad was killed in 1991 for the same reason.

If you don't believe the training camps existed, or that a connection exists, then it's like Abu Nidal was killed for refusing to make the arrangements. He was brought to Baghdad shortly after working with Bin Laden.
Jul 15th, 2003 01:53 PM
Jeanette X Why would Nidal refuse though?
Jul 15th, 2003 09:29 AM
Zhukov
Quote:
I was watching the news that day they already had his picture up and were listing him as the prime suspect within 30 minutes of the second tower getting hit. Just seems a little...uh...stupid?
Maybe it wasn't the total surprise to the CIA as they led you to believe.
Jul 15th, 2003 01:36 AM
Anonymous uh, just to clarify, do we have any proof that Osama and/or Al Qaeda were responsible for the 9/11 attacks yet? I mean, when I was watching the news that day they already had his picture up and were listing him as the prime suspect within 30 minutes of the second tower getting hit. Just seems a little...uh...stupid?
Jul 14th, 2003 04:07 PM
Abcdxxxx Zero -

A) if a history book explained Hitler's motivations by describing the mass majority of WW2's victims with such blame and scorn - it most certainly would be considered sympathetic and antisemetic. Worse you're doing it to back up a lame Hitler-Bush comparison.


B) Hitler's targets were a lot more specific then "anyone who disagreed with him". The periphial deaths involved with large scale war play do zero to negate that.

Jeanette - That bio doesn't really explain what I was getting at...plus he cut of most of his Palestinian ties 25 years ago. Abu Nidal was a mercenery for hire used by everyone from the IRA to the Japanese Red army. Sometimes they'd hire him just to take credit for terrorist actions. He was untouchable. His strongest relations were with Libya and most recently - Iraq, where he was found dead. The official story is he commited suicide but, in reality it's more likely that Saddam wanted him to train the Al Qaeda sects in Iraq, and when he refused, they assasinated him... even if you don't want to believe that, one thing is for certain.... Abu Nidal was living in a retirement complex near the Tibris set up for Senior Terrorists of virtually every terrorist group, both state sponsored or otherwise - regardless of affiliations.
Jul 12th, 2003 07:08 PM
Jeanette X Thank you for the link Zero Signal. Very informative.
Jul 12th, 2003 05:42 PM
Zero Signal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanette X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Ask Abu Nidal.
I'm afraid don't even know who that is. :blush Please explain further.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/abu_nidal.htm
Jul 12th, 2003 05:40 PM
Zero Signal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Zero " If you think all Hitler did was put people in camps, then you are a sad and ignorant individual. Perhaps, I need to spell it out for you. "

So it wasn't Hitlers ACTIONS towards his plan of a final solution that gave Hitler his reputation? You're just impressed with yourself because you understand how Germany was manipulated into rallying behind such a plan. If Bush is writing a new Holocaust intended for the Arab population, he's barely cracked the first few pages.
I am impressed with myself? For reading about the history of what went on? Right.

"Bush has barely cracked the first few pages" What, were you expecting him to completely carry out his agenda in just two and a half years? Oh please. You are so short-sighted you cannot even see the nose on your own face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Zero "Bush and his cronies are emplying the same tactics that Hitler, Goering and Goebbels used; create enemies for your people to hate and to rally behind you against them."

If that's your point, then chose a dictator (and there have been many) better suited to your analogy. Hitler, Goering and Goebbels did much, much more then merely create enemies for their people to solve some domestic problems. Their motives were far deeper then economics, and nationalism.
Sure their motives were deeper. You do not think that Bush's are not either? Bush used the word "crusade" to describe their campaigns in the Arab world, and said that God was behind him in doing that. Hitler honestly thought he was carrying out the will of God, too, but that is beside the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Zero - "Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany as he knew that the German people were tired of getting fucked over by them. The Jews had most of the money in Germany at the time, and were extremely stingy with it."

According to you the Germans were "fucked over", and the Jews were "rich" and "stngy". You are a Nazi sympathiser.
So I am a Nazi sympathizer because I explained it in the mindset of what Hilter was feeding his people? He convinced the Germans that the Jews were to blame for the economic depression that Germany was experiencing. People lit their woodstoves with piles of German marks because they were so worthless. So I guess all of the history books are sympathizing with the Nazis, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Zero - "Hitler created some dogmatic agenda using the theory of the Aryan race to remove them. He knew how to manipulate people. It is an age-old tactic. "

"remove them" or attempt to eradicate their existance from the earth? There's a difference. It matters a great deal.
Eradicating their existence from the Earth is a moot point. He would do the same thing to anyone that disagreed with him, Jews or not. His initial plan was getting them out of Germany first, and as he conquered nations he would remove them from there as well.
Jul 12th, 2003 03:06 PM
Jeanette X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
I was actually talking about Bin Laden's two faced ability to work alongside his enemies, including Saddam. While Saddam might have run a "secular pan-Arab nationalist" government (and how secular was it if every religion outside of Islam was persecuted?) He himself has put up a strong Muslim identity.and that's a pretty strong message in a "my way goes" dictatorship.
I have yet to see any proof of Bin Laden working with Saddam. Furthermore, although Saddam has put up a strong Muslim identity, he has persecuted other Muslims, not just non-Muslim religions. The Shiite Muslims of southern Iraq and the Sunni Muslim Kurds (Saddam is a Sunni Muslim, by the way) of northern Iraq have both been horribly persecuted by Saddam for purely political reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Ask Abu Nidal.
I'm afraid don't even know who that is. :blush Please explain further.
Jul 12th, 2003 02:32 PM
Abcdxxxx Zero " If you think all Hitler did was put people in camps, then you are a sad and ignorant individual. Perhaps, I need to spell it out for you. "

So it wasn't Hitlers ACTIONS towards his plan of a final solution that gave Hitler his reputation? You're just impressed with yourself because you understand how Germany was manipulated into rallying behind such a plan. If Bush is writing a new Holocaust intended for the Arab population, he's barely cracked the first few pages.

Zero "Bush and his cronies are emplying the same tactics that Hitler, Goering and Goebbels used; create enemies for your people to hate and to rally behind you against them."

If that's your point, then chose a dictator (and there have been many) better suited to your analogy. Hitler, Goering and Goebbels did much, much more then merely create enemies for their people to solve some domestic problems. Their motives were far deeper then economics, and nationalism.

Zero - "Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany as he knew that the German people were tired of getting fucked over by them. The Jews had most of the money in Germany at the time, and were extremely stingy with it."

According to you the Germans were "fucked over", and the Jews were "rich" and "stngy". You are a Nazi sympathiser.

Zero - "Hitler created some dogmatic agenda using the theory of the Aryan race to remove them. He knew how to manipulate people. It is an age-old tactic. "

"remove them" or attempt to eradicate their existance from the earth? There's a difference. It matters a great deal.


Also , on your oddly out of place Sharon quote...could you cite a source please? maybe explain how it's relevant to the discussion in this thread? Otherwise I just see you belittling, and rewriting the Holocaust while tossing in some fabricated quote feeding into the blood libels that antisemites have used for years to persecute Jews.
Jul 12th, 2003 02:28 PM
Sethomas Go read the message board rules and come back when you can add something pertinant to this conversation.

Go read the goddamn URL of this page. Hint: it rhymes with "i-clockery". Then try to attain at least a middle school comprehension of satire.
Jul 12th, 2003 02:02 PM
Abcdxxxx Jeanette - "Saddam is (was?) a secular pan-Arab nationalist, no an Islamic fundamentalist. If he used rhetoric like "infidels", it was only to appeal to the Iraqi people. "

I was actually talking about Bin Laden's two faced ability to work alongside his enemies, including Saddam. While Saddam might have run a "secular pan-Arab nationalist" government (and how secular was it if every religion outside of Islam was persecuted?) He himself has put up a strong Muslim identity.and that's a pretty strong message in a "my way goes" dictatorship.

Jeanette "I am aware that he gives money to the families of suicide bombers. What else does he do?"

Ask Abu Nidal.


Seth - "But Israel is the center of the universe!!!! What else IS there to do?"

Go read the message board rules and come back when you can add something pertinant to this conversation.

Vince, you need a brush up yourself, because it makes your argument sound idiotic the second you start talking about people's families and gas chambers. Stop it.
Jul 12th, 2003 12:03 PM
ziggytrix
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
You act as if there was this big conspiracy that Bush and co had when they joined office to take over the freaking world. Where is this proof?
ABC News ran a story on it.

You could also try PNAC's own site, but it was down at the time of this posting.

It's not like the fuckers are really even hiding it.
Jul 12th, 2003 10:12 AM
Zero Signal
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
I mean, you spout off the ignorant retoric enough so I guess I am entitled to see some REAL proof.
That coming from you is just priceless. Talk about the pot and the kettle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
If this was the case, every news source in the world would have jumped on it.
I do not confine my news sources to CNN and MSNBC like you apparently do. On the other hand, I do not believe every single thing that printed anywhere either.

But let us have Ariel Sharon explain spell it out to you in what he said to Shimon Perez on 10/3/2001:

"We control America. Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

In true Vinth style, you will probably now accuse me of being an anti-Semite, thus further cementing your blatant hypocrisy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
To compare Bush to Hitler makes you deserve to have your teeth knocked out, because millions of dead Jews, Catholics, retards, blacks, and other "physically and mentally unfit" people know what Hitler was really like.
Would comparing him to Julius Caesar be more politically correct for you? He used the same tactics as well.
This also coming from someone who has repeatedly called Max a kike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
And I must have struck a chord with the picture statement. Hell, I lied. The only person I have seen on here is Chojin.... which was an "interesting" experience to say the least.
Struck a chord? You only showed how ignorant you really are. You say something that you exhibit as truth and use it to instigate a reaction out of someone, then admit later that you were mistaken or outright lying. That sounds like something your mentor Bush would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
I don't like the Patriot Act at all. But besides that, and the whole spy camera networking thing they are going to have for foreign cities, Bush is doing what he can with what he has. He is still hindered by the Clinton years of destroying the military. Even if bush gets re-elected, I doubt the damage will be undone by then.
The PATRIOT Act is another can of worms entirely. So they drafted and finalized a 342 page bill and sent it through the process of becoming a law (which takes a while) all in 5 weeks? Right. They were so afraid of what it contained that they did not let Congress members even read what was in it before they signed it. Those very few that did, rejected it outright. We can all thank your mentors in the Bush administration for that.
Jul 12th, 2003 07:53 AM
VinceZeb I don't like the Patriot Act at all. But besides that, and the whole spy camera networking thing they are going to have for foreign cities, Bush is doing what he can with what he has. He is still hindered by the Clinton years of destroying the military. Even if bush gets re-elected, I doubt the damage will be undone by then.

You act as if there was this big conspiracy that Bush and co had when they joined office to take over the freaking world. Where is this proof? I mean, you spout off the ignorant retoric enough so I guess I am entitled to see some REAL proof. If this was the case, every news source in the world would have jumped on it. To compare Bush to Hitler makes you deserve to have your teeth knocked out, because millions of dead Jews, Catholics, retards, blacks, and other "physically and mentally unfit" people know what Hitler was really like.

And I must have struck a chord with the picture statement. Hell, I lied. The only person I have seen on here is Chojin.... which was an "interesting" experience to say the least.
Jul 12th, 2003 01:53 AM
Sethomas But Israel is the center of the universe!!!! What else IS there to do?
Jul 11th, 2003 11:49 PM
Jeanette X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
He also worked alongside the United State who he obviously holds in disdain. He's the blowback poster child, and loves nothing more then to get what he can from "infidels." It's a poor argument against a connection.
Saddam is (was?) a secular pan-Arab nationalist, no an Islamic fundamentalist. If he used rhetoric like "infidels", it was only to appeal to the Iraqi people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
You're aware of Saddam's record assisting terrorists organizations right?
I am aware that he gives money to the families of suicide bombers. What else does he do?
Jul 11th, 2003 10:16 PM
Zero Signal
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
I mean damn, Zero, I have seen your pic and know you're not too fucking intelligent, but my God man...
I see that you admit to being so shallow that you equate appearance to intelligence. Maybe you need a clue that the ONLY pic you could have possibly seen is one that was taken some 6 years ago, minimum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
What is with you fucking liberal idiots with the comparisons to Bush and Hitler? Has max's family been put in a camp yet? No. SO BUSH IS NOT LIKE HITLER!
You are so fucking one-dimensonal that I am surprised that you can even carry out any cognitive processes at all. If you think all Hitler did was put people in camps, then you are a sad and ignorant individual. Perhaps, I need to spell it out for you. Bush and his cronies are emplying the same tactics that Hitler, Goering and Goebbels used; create enemies for your people to hate and to rally behind you against them. Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany as he knew that the German people were tired of getting fucked over by them. The Jews had most of the money in Germany at the time, and were extremely stingy with it. Hitler created some dogmatic agenda using the theory of the Aryan race to remove them. He knew how to manipulate people. It is an age-old tactic.

But let us have Goering explain it in his own words:

Quote:
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Bush is executing this same strategy at present. Use the event of 9/11 at a reason to carry out their agendas; invading sovereign countries (under false pretenses even), taking away civil liberties and increasing spying on the populace.
Jul 11th, 2003 10:06 PM
CaptainBubba
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinceveb
Has max's family been put in a camp yet? No. SO BUSH IS NOT LIKE HITLER!
What? Is Max Iraqi or something? I coulda sworn he was a Jew.
Jul 11th, 2003 09:44 PM
VinceZeb What is with you fucking liberal idiots with the comparisons to Bush and Hitler? Has max's family been put in a camp yet? No. SO BUSH IS NOT LIKE HITLER!

I mean damn, Zero, I have seen your pic and know you're not too fucking intelligent, but my God man...
Jul 11th, 2003 08:07 PM
Abcdxxxx American militia groups haven't made attacks on foriegn governments.

As stated before, Arab nations have such a stronghold on their people, that a terrorist group couldn't exist without state sponsored support. In many cases it's not even hidden.

You're aware of Saddam's record assisting terrorists organizations right?

More so, he's a genocidal killer, and if you're going to compare anyone alive to Hitler at the moment, why not try him?

The situation in Iran is entirely different, and you surely couldn't think that too is for oil can you?
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