How did you feel then? How do you feel now?

[Sethomas]

11.09.2001 was a very, very hard time for me. I wasn't personally touched in the most visceral sense; the closest connection I had was that an old friend of mine had a father who worked in the Pentagon (but was safe, and I wasn't even talking to her at the time) and my then-"girlfriend"'s father worked for the FAA so it was very real for her.

My initial feelings were anger at my own country. I had always had a very tortuous relationship with my own nationality, just like any pissed-off white middle-class adolescent male. I had known that something like this was bound to happen and that the Middle East would probably be to blame, but seeing the level of destruction as it was actually happen as from a vacuum was just unreal. In the summer of 2000, I spent a week in NYC, which is considered an exotic locale for a rural Hoosier. I remember the time I spent wandering around the two towers, looking at the Bronze globe in the center as a memorial to the first WTC bombing (it was the third such one I'd seen in two weeks, the others being outside the Sistine Chapel and the UN Building). I bought some trinkets for my family from some booths set up in the plaza, and I gazed at what I saw as the most artistic expression of mankind's perversion of the landscape I'd ever seen. The way the foundation just kind of melted into the ground was very, very elegant to me.

I was hurt because of the loss of life, but it was ironic to me that while in New York I was educated on the depravity of America's relationship with the rest of the world as well as the dire situation of hunger in the third world. Given that roughly 38 000 children alone died of hunger and disease on that day, adding a few thousand more adults who had the luxury of being even in America's lower class just seemed surreal.

I had hoped that maybe we would become aware of not only our own mortality, but that which is shared by all of humanity. I had hoped that we would become more aware of the world which exists beyond our borders. I had hoped that the ashes in Manhattan would birth a wonderful Phoenix.

I was solipsistic in my early adolescence, and some of those past attitudes forever molded my perceptions of reality. It's human nature to always think of one's time as being unique, superior, yadda yadda, as if the world of the now was the teleological aim of all of physical evolution. "Presentism", they call it. Yet, when something happens to re-affirm what we know to be true yet cower from recognizing, that we are just players of a greater history, it terrifies us. It's painful to confront the fact that there is no arbitrary line between "history" and "life".

I knew that we'd scapegoat and go to war. I supported retaliation so long as it was not revenge. I wanted us to do something, but I could not bring myself to support the bombings of Kabul. I had remembered from Vonnegut's Bluebeard that the first reaction to attrocity is to reciprocate attrocity. "Now it's the women's turn." Knowing that there would likely be a draft, I took the ASVAB and scored a lowly battery of 97 because I had to urinate so badly during its administration. I was thinking that maybe I could choose to join a nuclear submarine, which would unlikely be used to commit any real abomination and would grant me experience in the sciences as a nuclear technician. Or, if the national insanity was bad enough, I'd gladly expatriate.

I had to come to terms with what it meant to me to be an American. I gradually realized that for all the secret wars and foul politics and manipulations of which we are guilty, I cannot escape what I really am. I grew up in the country eating American food, loving my American relatives, and taking part in the blessings of the world's sole Super Power. I don't know that I'd trade that for any other life if I could, but I began to slowly love my countrymen for what they are--their ignorances and fears are but a part of what it means to be human, not by definition American. I had even hoped that some of those fears and ignorances would be alleviated by this terrible experience.

-------------------------
Five years later, I am still angry. My generation had responded more or less as expected, with a sharp dichotomy of my peers being suddenly more interested in the international community and others being uncharacteristically nationalistic. Patriotism is essential, nationalism is a travesty. I cannot forgive my brothers and sisters in citizenship for their support of the rape of Iraq, but I concede that they merely felt in in their conscience that the blatant lies should be believed. At the same time, I was in a major university while the anti-war protests happened and so I saw what it meant to love one's neighbor, regardless of the borders between.

I am angry at my government. I could never, ever support either political party, but I'd take the lesser evil whenever possible. In raw ideology, I see the Democrats as capricious tools and I see Republicans as hypocritical exploiters. It's worse now. Given the support for the Mondus Belli Americani, I cannot imagine any optimism without a drastic shift of paradigm. Two possibilities lie on the horizon: total dystopia or total annihilation.

I find it interesting how harshly (and to this point, accurately) my generation has been accused of laziness. We are in a Children's Crusade, and when the toys are broken it will be us who must pick up the rubble. History is not going to remember this as an easy period.

[kahljorn]

"Yet, when something happens to re-affirm what we know to be true yet cower from recognizing, that we are just players of a greater history, it terrifies us. It's painful to confront the fact that there is no arbitrary line between "history" and "life"."

This is one of the most important crutches of eastern philosophy ;O This is why I focus on it so much, because it's very "Real" and metaphysical. Most people think they are all mystical and such which is kind of ironic to me Like that episode of curb your enthusiasm with gil the pornstar and they tell him to take off his shoes and he says, "but they're clean" and they go, "That's not the point it's a tradition"! Actually the tradition is to take your shoes off before you enter a house so it doesn't get dirty. Common sense sort of stuff.
What you described is the essential ground working of the idea of "Karma". The entire history of the world(even existence) is kind of compounded and coelesced into this moment, this present, because the entire history of World lead to this moment, this present. If the big bang hadn't have happened, we wouldn't be here, if 9/11 hadn't happened, we wouldn't be having this conversation(there's obviously more effects than that, though), and similarly the actions my parents commited in their lifetime before I was even born also effect me.
It's kind of like "Chaos theory" I guess, if you remove variables from your lifetime would you be the same person? If you removed variables from history would you still be the same person? Chances are, no, you wouldn't.


I didn't really care when 9/11 happened either ;O I remember getting in a "Fight" with glowbelly over it, pretty much over the same reasons.
I didn't particularly care that a bunch of people died, lots of people die everyday. It actually kind of made me mad that people are so ignorant that they were actually angry and patriotic over this. As if we live in some utopia free of war, where nobody ever hurts one another.
It was almost as if they were saying, "A BUNCH OF AMERICANS DIED, AMERICANS, THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. WHAT? LOTS OF PEOPLE DIE EVERYDAY? MORE THAN DIED IN 9/11? WHO CARES THEY ARE DUMB NONAMERICANS AND YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL FOR NOT LOVING AMERICANS.

I also hate that our socio-political and even economic situation at the moment was dictated by a lie, and also that somehow that lie is insignificant compared to god forsaken purgery over a blowjob.

I'm a bit hungover, and now it's time for breakfast ;O

[FartinMowler]

I was listening to Howard Stern as it was happening and it was the one time I felt he wasn't a pig. I work alone everyday and listening to that and being separated from my family at a certain time when something that affects the whole world is surreal and uncomfortable.

I live in a very multicultural community and I'm the minority. I know tons of money heads out of my country that might be funding Terrorism. I hate politics and religion and think people that rely on it as some form of comfort or intellectual stimulation are messed up.

[Preechr]

damn double post

[Preechr]

Unlike Seth, at the time of the attack, I did not already know everything there was to know about America vs the rest of the world. Unlike Seth, I set out at that point to read and understand all I could about my country and the rest of the world. Unlike Seth, I wasn't hoping for a humbling of America to come from this, just some assurances something productive was being done in hopes of avoiding such attacks in the future. Unlike Seth, when we invaded Iraq, I understood and supported what was happening... regretting the deaths that would come from war while agreeing with the treacherous Neo-Cons that those deaths were necessary attrition for the cause of spreading freedom to those tragically yet unaquainted to it. Unlike Seth, I believe I actually am living in a time of transformation and positive global change.

Nice topic choice though, Seth. I think everybody should post in this one.

[Sethomas]

Well, if you were to dig up the ancient tomes of the ezboard forums, you could read what I actually had to say in this community when the ashes were still hot and we were all watching for survivors to be found in the rubble. I don't see how you could overlook my confession of sophomorism, but oh well.

I don't want to turn this topic into a flame war, so I guess I should humbly suggest you consider that love of one's country is like any other love in that it provides license for anger. The greatest patriots are those that don't always agree with their nation, but rather defend it from the fallibility incurred by being a human institution. Sycophants are folly's best friend and virtue's greatest annoyance.

[Preechr]

That's fine. I have no problem with that. I'm not willing to agree, however, that any diasgreement with one's country is necessarily patriotism.

I didn't see "sophmoric." I saw "solipsistic" and I didn't know what that meant. Either way, I wasn't so much ripping on your past immaturity as I was your present naivete.

I am less in love with my country than I am with what it represents in a historical context. Maybe America, despite it's status as the greatest liberal experiment in the world so far, won't be the place that gives birth to a truly globalized, modern world. I'm not a nationalist. I'm an idealist and an optimist, though I am also a realist, at least enough to be able to look around, taking the measure of my fellow countrymen, and wonder if they will ever understand their place in the world.

I didn't intend a flame war either. I'm just being honest. If that's not good enough for you, then by all means just ignore me.

[Immortal Goat]

Taken from my blog, which, ironically, was just posted minutes before seeing this thread:

The anniversary of the worst hijacking in recent history. Five years ago, the leader of a terrorist organization hijacked more than a few planes. He hijacked the country. He hijacked people's hearts, minds, and their faith. I even admit that I bought into it for a while, too. I went along with the grand facade, until I realized just what had become of the country since that day.

America was destroyed on that day. The country we live in now is not the same one we left behind. That country had its fair share of problems, to be sure, but everything was much happier back then. At least it was to one naive boy of 15. I was already becoming cynical, but at least back then I believed everything would turn out alright. I thought that the war would be a quick one, and our boys would be home soon.

Five fucking years later, and it's still not over. We aren't even in the same goddamned country we started in, and we're still swallowing Bush's bullshit. Homosexuals are being oppressed, Christians are writing their beliefs into law, AND I CAN'T DO A GODDAMNED THING ABOUT IT! When did this happen? WHERE DID MY COUNTRY GO?! Where did the "Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" run off to? In it's place is an angry giant, holding a cross in one hand while pummelling its very citizens into the ground with the other. This isn't freedom. This isn't bravery. It's cowardice.

WHY ARE WE STILL AT WAR? I guess because it's a war of ideas. Ideas can't be killed. Someone will always think a certain way. You kill one follower of an ideal, and three more come to take their place. Which I guess means that neither side will win. The Iraqi terrorists will always feel the way they do, as will the American terrorists.

And I don't want to hear any bullshit about how I'm not "American" becaues I don't "Support the troops". I support them more than any one of those fuckers with the yellow ribbon attatched to their goddamned cars. I WANT THEM TO FUCKING COME HOME SAFE AND SOUND. What more support could I give? What would the soldiers rather have? Would they feel better knowing that you've got a goddamned piece of plastic hanging from their car, or that I, someone they have never met in their lives, wish they could just drop their weapons and come home and live normal lives? I bet any one of them would gladly piss all over your shitty magnet if it meant coming home quicker.

I'm not really sure what brought this on. Maybe it was the fact that I do, in fact, remember the exact moment I heard about the planes hitting the WTC. I remember the images flashing on the screen. I remember the little 15 year old boy watching it happen, not knowing what it all meant, but somehow knowing it would all be alright. Then, the towers collapsed, and so did the naivete of that 15 year old boy. Maybe America hasn't changed at all since that day 5 years ago. All this time I thought that that 15 year old boy was still alive and kicking, and that it was his country that has abandoned him. Maybe, though, it's the other way around. That 15 year old boy is dead, and in his place, a cynical 20 year old young man stands, staring in total awe of the total cluster-fuck that his country has seemingly become.

I would give just about anything to be able to go back and keep that 15 year old boy alive. I would have liked to have had the power to stop what happened. Maybe then, I would still believe that everything is going to be alright. But I don't, and I can't. My brother is joining the army, and I am sick to my stomach about it, because I know that there is a good chance that, after he gets all his training, he'll get shipped over seas, and that he may leave in a uniform, but he may come back in a box, if at all.

Wow, that was a long, depressing rant. I've gotta stop staying up so late. My emotions start to show.

There you have it. The half-asleep ravings of a guy too cynical for his age. Agree or disagree all you want. Just know that there's a big pre-emptive "fuck you" to those of you who think I'm not a goddamned patriot for my beliefs.

[Abcdxxxx]

I was wondering why my lips felt numb, and trying to get rid of the feeling my tongue was coated in powder. there was a lot of fear of chemical weapons, but no, we were just inhaling somebodies office chair.

[Sethomas]

Awesome. Your medal's in the mail as we speak.

[AChimp]

Then: "Some Middle Eastern country is going to be bombed to the Stone Age because of this."

Now: "Wow, y'all sure fucked that one up."

That's about it. :/

[mburbank]

"I had hoped that maybe we would become aware of not only our own mortality, but that which is shared by all of humanity."

Perhaps that's a naive hope, but I think it's key, at least to the then/now question you're posing.

The tragedy, violence and suffering of that day were awful (in the actual sense of the word). But when we began bombing Afghanistan, although I saw no real alternative and so 'supported' the response as much as I am personally capable of supporting violence, all I could think of is that where those bombs struck, human beings were suffering exactly, exactly the same tragedy, violence and suffering. And the survivors would live with the same loss and horror. To the people in an exploding building, the motivation of the people killing them is almost certainly meaningless. My guess is that for their survivors the knowledge that our killing was done in response, and with nobler motives and with the intention of killing combatants, is little comfort.

I am tired (literally, not sarcastically) of thinking about Blowback, fanatical hatreds, past foreign policy, tribalism. It seems more and more to me that we are hardwired to make each other suffer and the only differences between any two people is how hard the fight that hardwiring or how deeply they embrace it.

Kahl, while I hear you and understand your point about people all over the world suffering and dieing every day, and while I agree that the fact that that day those suffering and dieing were Americans does not make them more specail or valuable, it does not make them any less special or valuable either. But my sorrow on that day feels tainted by all the human suffering we have joined in bringing about since. Osama Bin Laden wanted a wider war and more people to hate America as deeply as he did. In both those respect, I believe he is winning.

Abcdxxxx, from your post, I take it you were there. If you'd said this before I missed it, but I don't read everything here. Beyond that fact, while I think I might take your meaning I'd far rather you spelled it out. I don't want to adress things you might mean.

Seth, you are always interesting. I was particularly intrigued by your mention of Vonnegut in connection with this. Initially hailed as a genius, public opinion came to regard him as... sophmoric? I'm not sure he's either, but I have been re-reading him and as a middle aged man find his world view moving and instructive, and I appreciatte him far more than my fan boy enthiusiasm when I read him as a teen. I find a comfort in his work that I failed to get when I was younger. I think he deserves to be taken far more seriously as a serious thinker than he generally is. And finally, I think (in fact I'm sure) Preech wasn't giving you shit. There may have been some level of sarcasm there, but it was his honest response.

Although I can't believe he didn't know what a solopsist was. Hey, Preech; They invented this thing called a dictionary? They even have them on line.

[theapportioner]

I was in my senior year of college in New York City, sitting in a thermodynamics class, when my friend broke the news that a plane hit one of the towers, then two. He had a sister working next to the WTC, and soon walked out of the class. Afterwards, I ran back home and saw the smoke and heard the terrible news.

I remember how everyone bonded together in the days and weeks afterward, the impromptu memorials in Washington Square Park and by St. Vincent's Hospital downtown, and just how everybody came together.

I also remember the sex orgies. Those were good.

[theapportioner]

The NY Post had this touching cover today:

[mburbank]

That is gorgeous.

[Chojin]

Originally Posted by Immortal Goat

He hijacked people's hearts

this made me lol :<

[Geggy]

How nice. Bush visiting his crime scene.

[sspadowsky]

My immediate reaction was, "I hope much of the Middle East is turned into a smoking hole in the ground." I think that's verbatim.

Then, I realized how stupid that was, and it occurred to me that humanity is far too fucking stupid to learn from history, and therefore, doomed to continue repeating its mistakes.

Five years of clusterfuck later, I believe that humanity is far too fucking stupid to learn from history, and therefore, doomed to continue repeating its mistakes.

Maybe I'm just an impatient person with a grim outlook on human nature, but ya know what? I'm pretty certain that history is on my side.

[Immortal Goat]

Originally Posted by Chojin

this made me lol :<

lol ;<

[kahljorn]

"it does not make them any less special or valuable either."

That's true, and it's not like I hated the people who died or was glad they were dead or anything like that, I just didn't think it was as big of a deal as people made it out to be. I'm sure everybody remembers the response most americans had for this. It was kind of ridiculous.
Really though, even to this day I can't start to put personal feelings into the event. It's just impossible for me to get my head around things like war, I try to explain them psychologically but still... The only feeling that comes out of it is outrage at humans or human animals.
Also when I said that suffering and dying is everywhere I wasn't necessarily trying to cop out per se but merely get accross the fact that part of the problem with things is that humanity isn't perfectly human. It's not that terrorists or Islam is bad, but that humanity, and furthermore, the universe and nature is what's really causing these types of problems.
I think the total lack of awareness for reality is perpetuating these circumstances as well, and if people want to lack awareness then they should expect problems from their ignorance and hatred. This goes both ways.
Basically i think the response to 9/11 was animalistic and lacking any type of direction towards progression or making the world a happier place, as such, to me, it was lackluster and devoid of any relative meaning. We respond to animals by being animals, consequently we become animals in our behaviors and thoughts.

As for vonneguht I think he's a good and creative writer, perhaps a genius would be appropriate but I haven't read enough of his work to know. He's so hilarious, though Which books have you read, and which ones make you think he's a genius?
The thing I like most about his books though is that they are kind of simple. His books are so easy to read, you can just flow through them. It's like reading robert anton wilson, despite the simplicity there's a level of complexity or deep story telling.

AT A LAUGH SUDDENLY A SALMON EGG ESCAPED KILGORE TROUT'S MOUTH AND RESTED IN THE CLEAVAGE OF THE WOMAN

[theapportioner]

Originally Posted by Geggy

How nice. Bush visiting his crime scene.

I wasn't talking about the Bush picture, dumbass.

[mburbank]

It was the JUXTAPOSITION!!



I'm all about the Juxtaposition. Twenty four seven, baby.

[Geggy]

Originally Posted by theapportioner

I wasn't talking about the Bush picture, dumbass.

I don't give a shit. I was making a comment about bush pulling a PR stunt in the picture.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yeah, I'm not buying for one second that those flowers are real.

[kahljorn]

Whatever guys don't you know that flowers grow out of george bush's anus?