Jesus Plus Nothing

[mburbank]

This is a fairly long article from Harpers, but I think it's fascinating and well worth reading. I would really like to hear what people think of it.

http://www.harpers.org/online/jesus_...hing.php3?pg=1

[MisSFiT]

I have to say that "The Family" they were referring to is really nothing but a way to make them feel like what they are doing has some sort of meaning. It is based on rich congressmen and businessmen trying to make the world a better place through Jesus. Nothing is genuine about that at all. They look toward Hitler as an example, or Ghengis Khan, a "Leader chosen by Jesus" whom ate a full course meal while men suffocated underneath the crate he ate upon. That is ridiculious!

[mburbank]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not on some 'secret society controls the world' kick, I just found the whole thing disturbing on multiple levels. They seem to actively endorse Jesus as a cult of personality without regard to his teachings. I also thought that the leaders son was saying that someone who embraced Jesus could do anything at all and it wasn't sin, (as opposed to not being able to do things which were sins, since he actively sited raping girls).

I also took the leader to be saying that Hitler aand Gengis Kahns methadology would be praiseworthy were they employed in the name of Jesus.

The fact that any politician embraces this 'Jesus plus nothing' credo is frightening enough without believing their little club is achieving it's goals, which unless I read it wrong were mostly the kind usually embraced by James Bond Villians.

Most of the time I think even the most literal, furthest right Christians (and they claim not to be christians at all, but 'in Christ') are still pretty far from Muslim Extremists, but these guys don't seem very far off at all. That plus their active endorsement of cells established along the lines of the Mafia and Totalitarian secret police...

It's very fucked up.

[MisSFiT]

Yeah, fucked up to say the least. And also to think that these are the same people that are ruling the government.

The part where the one man told the other to pray for something for 45 days and if it didn't happen he owed him $500.00. The man prayed for Uganda and by day 35 he came back and said he raised one million for an orphanage in Uganda, to me that is just giving people who don't believe or are uncertain, false hope. Because it is a political organization and when the most powerful and wealthy get together they really can do anything and it's not Jesus it's their fucking bank account.

[Perndog]

Fuck 'em. That's all I've got to say. I read the first page, and to read further is to give the impression that these people are worth my time.

[mburbank]

To me it's not a question of if they are worth my time or not. I'm interested in the theology of religous extremism, and I think there's ample evidence it's one of the most powerful forces on earth today.

For me, the cornerstone of faith is doubt. Once you become certain you are a true vessel for God's will, you are capable of complete amorality. If you have no capacity no matter how small to doubt your knowledge of God or wonder if your God is real, true, actual, and the Gods other people worship are mental fabrication there is absolutely nothing to keep you from any atrocity. That's the sort of faith that allows people to fly fully loaded airplanes into skyscapers, and when highly placed peope in my own government tend in that direction and seek to downplay it by organizing cells, I think it's worth thinking about.

[Protoclown]

Wow, that was damned creepy.

[Mike P]

I'm going to comment this as I read it, so feel free to ignore this post openly. To agree with Proto, though, this is some really creepy stuff. However, it does have something that appeals to me. A "secret" organization that goes around trying to make things better and stuff. However, the fact that they worship Jesus, and think him a weapon in some sort of future spiritual war is downright weird. As I continue reading, though, the fact that they consider themselves on the level of people like Hitler is rather scary, as well as the fact that they seemed to think themselves a sort of Jesus Mafia. Then there's an odd bit about Genghis Khan. Even after reading the bit several times, I can't tell if they're saying that he was an instrument of Jesus or what.


I continue reading. They've created "Bump", which actually sounds pretty fun. It's contact basketball. Then I realize: THIS IS THE ANTI-FRATERNITY. For one, it has nothing to do with college. Also, the snippets of conversation the author slipped in is just like frat boys talking about porn or drugs. Their talk of Jesus puts me in the mind of the King Missile song "Jesus Was Way Cool", actually.

All in all, my statement of agreement with Protoclown remains. This is damned creepy. However, I find it interesting, and for some reason, inviting. Hm...

[The_Rorschach]

"Once you become certain you are a true vessel for God's will, you are capable of complete amorality."

If you are suggesting someone who is under the delusion of being a vessel of God is capable of amorality, I would agree, but anyone who practices Christianity or Judaism according to doctrine could not possibly do so. You use the skyscraper and plane as an analogy, but according to almost every authority I have read on the Torah, to take a single life is equalitive with quantitatively eradicating an entire universe. I'll be happy to cite authorities to testify to that affect, but I believe you're already familiar. The same spirit abides within Christianity, but is even more complete. Where as Judaism was built primarily around the Law and Justice, Christianity enters a new dynamic into the equation in the form of Mercy. Seventy time seven are we to forgive each of our breathren, and when harm is done to us, we are instructed to not only turn the other cheek, but repay them with kindness.

Judging the whole of Christianity -and I realize its true adherents are few and far between- upon the basis of the massive numbers of a psuedo-believers is like passing judgement upon our Constitution and the Forefathers who framed due to the actions of our elated politicians in place today. It would be a travesty.

[The One and Only...]

It's not nearly as creepy when you live an hour away from them. No joke.

These guys don't scare me at all. It's the Jewish neoconservative movement that fightens me...

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by The_Rorschach

"Once you become certain you are a true vessel for God's will, you are capable of complete amorality."

If you are suggesting someone who is under the delusion of being a vessel of God is capable of amorality, I would agree, but anyone who practices Christianity or Judaism according to doctrine could not possibly do so. You use the skyscraper and plane as an analogy, but according to almost every authority I have read on the Torah, to take a single life is equalitive with quantitatively eradicating an entire universe. I'll be happy to cite authorities to testify to that affect, but I believe you're already familiar. The same spirit abides within Christianity, but is even more complete. Where as Judaism was built primarily around the Law and Justice, Christianity enters a new dynamic into the equation in the form of Mercy. Seventy time seven are we to forgive each of our breathren, and when harm is done to us, we are instructed to not only turn the other cheek, but repay them with kindness.

Judging the whole of Christianity -and I realize its true adherents are few and far between- upon the basis of the massive numbers of a psuedo-believers is like passing judgement upon our Constitution and the Forefathers who framed due to the actions of our elated politicians in place today. It would be a travesty.

Why the correction? Max wasn't saying all Christians are the same as these wackos.

[The_Rorschach]

Why the question? I wasn't asserting he was.

[Brandon]

You launched into a spiel about how one shouldn't judge all of Christianity by the actions of this extremist group. Nobody did so.

[mburbank]

These guys are adamantly not Christinas. They utterly reject the term and dissaviow religion entirely. They are 'of christ' and believe they participate in him totally.

[The_Rorschach]

Christ's Disciples wouldn't have called themselves Christians either, the terminology has changed much over the years. For instance, the earliest structure cited in regards to early Christianity was by Paul, calling on those instructing upon the word to appoint deacons, the word carrying the same conotation as "my girl Friday" or "gopher" -hardly an elevated position at all, but that is a rabbit trail for another time.

Really, the only point I was trying to make wasn't to you at all Burbank, just a general note that the baby should not be thrown out with the tepid, foetid, faeces infested bathwater -regardless of how corrupted the child appears to be.

[mburbank]

We agree. There's much to recomend Christianity. I attend a Unitarian church (incidentally the oldest self governing body in the USA) that focuses on the religion OF Jesus, as opposed to the religion ABOUT Jesus.

[kellychaos]

Jesus was the keynote speaker at my high school graduation. Later, he took the diplomas away from all the kids who he knew were headed for menial jobs and were not going to need them anyway. He then said a prayer for them. Jesus has a terrific sense of irony. :/