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kilmie polanski kilmie polanski is offline
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Old May 31st, 2003, 08:09 AM        The gay sword of tolerance
Jewish World Review May 27, 2003 / 25 Iyar, 5763
David Limbaugh



The gay sword of tolerance
http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | Homosexual activists insist they don't want special rights; they just want to be left alone to do as they please. But at what point does the vindication of their rights become an encroachment on the rights of others? Two proposed California bills illuminate the issue.



AB 661 would amend current California law to provide that schools will be allowed to administer anonymous questionnaires to their students, without parental knowledge or consent, regarding school safety, school violence or discrimination. Questions about the student's perceived gender or sexual orientation could be included.


This means that young California students could be placed in the position of contemplating their sexuality and sexual orientation without their parents even knowing about it. ()


What would motivate California lawmakers to propose such an odious measure that would allow the state, essentially, to encourage children to deal with these issues? Is it the state's business to be initiating these dialogues?


The state's imprimatur on such questionnaires surely implies a value judgment in favor of homosexual behavior that many parents -- even in California -- might reject (at the risk of being called homophobes).


And the state's extreme step of removing the requirement of parental consent is a gross usurpation of parental rights and authority. Indeed, Karen England, Legislative Liaison for Capitol Resource Institute, said, "We are especially outraged by this attempt to push parents out of the process. What is it that they want to discuss with 7-year-old Johnny that is too controversial to be discussed with Johnny's 30-year-old mom?"


Is homosexual behavior considered so sacrosanct that the state is willing to take the parents out of the loop for fear that they might teach their children contrary values? There is no excuse under any circumstances, except for situations involving child endangerment perhaps, for Big Brother to supersede the role of the parents in this way. But that's exactly what is going on with AB 458 as well, only this one deals not with natural or adoptive parents, but foster parents.


Last year, I wrote about a proposed piece of legislation in California, AB 2651, which would have allowed a boy in foster care to report his foster parents to family services for a civil rights violation if they refused to permit him to dress like a girl. The bill also would have encouraged California counties to provide sensitivity training for foster parents on "sexual orientation, gender identity and the challenges faced by gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender youth, or youth with gender issues."


Amazingly, Governor Gray Davis vetoed the bill, but you must remember he was up for re-election at the time. Now, he's not, and the bill's back with a new number, AB 458, offered by the same legislator, Judy Chu. It already passed in the California Assembly and is headed for the Senate. Could there have been a tacit understanding that if Chu brought up the bill again after the election, Davis would sign it? We'll have to wait and see.


Actually AB 458 is worse than AB 2651 in that it would affirmatively require foster parents to undergo sensitivity training, whereas AB 2651 would have only encouraged counties to provide the training.


The new bill, like its predecessor, would also prohibit foster parents from discriminating against children under their care on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity. This means that foster parents could not teach their foster children that homosexual behavior is wrong, even if their religious beliefs compelled them to do so, without violating the law against discrimination. Where's the ACLU? Where is Americans United for Separation of Church and State? If their goal is to drive Christians out of foster parenting, AB 458 should go a long way toward accomplishing it.


These bills show the double standards of the homosexual lobby and the liberal groups supporting them in a number of ways. In the name of tolerance, they demonstrate intolerance toward Christians and their values. They constitute state endorsement of religious beliefs in violation of the Establishment Clause every bit as much as many activities these groups denounce on those grounds, such as voluntary school prayer. They grossly violate the religious freedom of the parents and foster parents these groups pretend to champion. And AB 458 arguably invades the so-called privacy rights of foster parents to raise foster children as they see fit in their own homes.


(If they can raise the privacy flag to cover every conceivable situation, so can I.)


Am I missing anything?

_______________
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Old May 31st, 2003, 08:29 AM        Re: The gay sword of tolerance
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilmie polanski

This means that young California students could be placed in the position of contemplating their sexuality and sexual orientation without their parents even knowing about it. ()

_______________

Those poor kids, I'm glad I discussed my sexuality with my parents. Friends too.


Last I heard it is still illegal in Tasmania for two 'hot babes' to have sex.
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Old May 31st, 2003, 10:37 AM       
Is this the pink bowtied sword that sings Broadway songs?

Quote:
The new bill, like its predecessor, would also prohibit foster parents from discriminating against children under their care on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity. This means that foster parents could not teach their foster children that homosexual behavior is wrong, even if their religious beliefs compelled them to do so, without violating the law against discrimination. Where's the ACLU? Where is Americans United for Separation of Church and State? If their goal is to drive Christians out of foster parenting, AB 458 should go a long way toward accomplishing it.


These bills show the double standards of the homosexual lobby and the liberal groups supporting them in a number of ways. In the name of tolerance, they demonstrate intolerance toward Christians and their values. They constitute state endorsement of religious beliefs in violation of the Establishment Clause every bit as much as many activities these groups denounce on those grounds, such as voluntary school prayer. They grossly violate the religious freedom of the parents and foster parents these groups pretend to champion. And AB 458 arguably invades the so-called privacy rights of foster parents to raise foster children as they see fit in their own homes.
This is sort of easy for me to say as an atheist, but I think when church and state clash, state must win. Nobody should be able to claim the right to discriminate based on their beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, people can do whatever they like in the name of religion, short of breaking the law.

I find this extreme interest in dissecting the sexuality of children disturbing. I'd rather see a child discover this for themselves (not, like... see them discover it, but you get my point), and hopefully find acceptance in their surroundings, than having them presented with "Are you A) straight B) gay C) transgender D) crossdresser E) all of the above. Must pick at least one." at an age when they're probably not even thinking about sex yet. Well. Except for kids that exchange blowjobs in kindergarten. Children are being screwed with in the head enough as it is, which I think this case of the boy demanding the right to crossdress is a fair example off.
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Old May 31st, 2003, 10:59 AM       
How is ensuring personal privacy an endorsement of religion? It sounds like they're trying to be neutral as they can while ensuring the integrity of the child's personality. A child isn't taught "homosexuality" either and it's nobody's business but his/her own. If he/she wants to talk to anyone about it, hopefully his/her parents will be the first choice. If not, then maintaining some kind of "open door" counseling is a good thing. Perhaps an area in the Sex Ed class to open communication on the topic would be good as long as it's the youth's decision to discuss his own orientation. He/She should not be coerced into revealing his/her orientation if he/she doesn't wish to.
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Old May 31st, 2003, 11:15 AM       
I think even, or especially at such a young age, a child would understand the stigma of being gay or bisexual, and would just lie on the form.
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Old May 31st, 2003, 11:23 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
I think even, or especially at such a young age, a child would understand the stigma of being gay or bisexual, and would just lie on the form.
Good for them ... except for the feeling bad about it part. Fight The Power! :raisingthegaysword
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Old May 31st, 2003, 12:44 PM       
I agree with Fatsatan. Presenting these children with such questions at too early an age is only going to mess them up. I think it would be healthier for the children to discover their sexual identities on their own, without coercion of any kind from the state.

Unfortunately it's kind of hard to limit kind of coercion from the family, but ultimately, regardless of what we are taught, or how we are raised, we have to make our own decisions. You cannot force someone to be tolerant. Nor can you force them to be hateful, no matter what kind of information (or misinformation) you shove down their throat.

I was brought up in a home that taught me that being gay is wrong, and that homosexuals go to hell. My sister still is uncomfortable with gay people. She doesn't hate them, but she does feel that their life style is "wrong" and she does not agree with it. Though I was brought up in the same house, I have since drawn my own conclusions on the matter and strongly disagree with what I was taught.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Does any of this even relate to the conversation anymore?
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Old May 31st, 2003, 12:52 PM       
Is homosexual behavior considered so sacrosanct that the state is willing to take the parents out of the loop for fear that they might teach their children contrary values?

If parents are inculcating ass-backwards stone age values like "gay is wrong", then yes, absolutely, positively.
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Old May 31st, 2003, 01:21 PM       
Yes, yes, let's have the state raise our children instead of the parents because they certainly don't know what they [parents] are doing.
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Old May 31st, 2003, 01:27 PM       
You'd be surprised at the number of stupid parents. You should need a license to have children.
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kilmie polanski kilmie polanski is offline
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 05:54 AM       
i want to see those cards...."Joe Johnson: Private Dick".... hmm no.

Quote:
What would motivate California lawmakers to propose such an odious measure that would allow the state, essentially, to encourage children to deal with these issues? Is it the state's business to be initiating these dialogues?
a sad truth is, elementary and jr. high school is a lot different than it used to be, even for people like me who went there in the 90's. I don't think we can get away from the gay in the media...even if we tried. And it's hard for parents to monitor every minute what their chillin watch or watch they're looking up on the internet , etc. Kids would probably be familiar with the sexual terms presented to them, but, for the most part, have no way of determining which niche they belong to. What's weird is that these surveys are totally anonymous and serve no purpose but to describe the school as being "totally gay except for a few sado-masochist crossdressers....Let's dance!" (assuming the kids will fudge up the surveys).

I conclude that if foster parents are reported and receive a civil rights violation, they are arrested. I seriously doubt the kid will report his parents, most likely nonabusive, and be sent back to the orphanage, especially when there is a shortage of foster parents...what a big humiliating experience just to wear the pretty pretty princess action gear.

I wonder what would happen if the kid wanted to dress up as a crackwhore
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 09:47 AM       
We oversex kids in our society. Hetro, Homo, Bi, whatever it is, we need to quit forcing sex down our children's throats every chance we get in the name of "tolerance". Forcing others to accept things they can live with but do not want to embrance doesn't breed acceptance, it only breeds contempt.
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 12:27 PM       
"Embrance"

tee hee
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 12:32 PM       
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Originally Posted by VinceZeb
we need to quit forcing sex down our children's throats every chance we get
Tell that to the Catholic diocese.
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 12:57 PM       
Zero, you can go anywhere and look for the stats on molestation cases by priests compared to those of other faiths and of non-faith groups. Even though most of the people who reported abuse were older and thus the abuse would have had to happen some time ago.

So I guess in short if I were you I would think before I type something out. But then again this is you were are talking about....
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 02:13 PM       


Quote:
Forcing others to accept things they can live with but do not want to embrance doesn't breed acceptance, it only breeds contempt.
So would you say the same about integrating segregated schools during the 60s?
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 02:34 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
We oversex kids in our society. Hetro, Homo, Bi, whatever it is, we need to quit forcing sex down our children's throats every chance we get in the name of "tolerance". Forcing others to accept things they can live with but do not want to embrance doesn't breed acceptance, it only breeds contempt.
coming from someone that likes to post nudey shoots all over his "catholic-samurai" site, those are pretty STOOPID words vinth!

**************************************************

If you look around American today, you can see the splendid examples of how tactfully parents supply their children with facts on sex and sexuality! Every year 1 million teens get pregnant:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/Lib...preg_fact.html

to understand why, you have to look a number of facts but it ALWAYS starts with the parents (after all who has the primary responsibility?). As it is, parents want society to deal with all the problems, they have given up on. They can't give their children proper eating habits, so we have 5 year olds on ritalin classified "ADD"!!!!
If the educational system can anonymously and safely give these kids some info on how to take care of themselves (and thereby others) what is the problem?! Parents let the kids watch mtv or some of these reality shows that are already promoting sexual behaviour directly at Teen's. Why should they not learn how to handle sexuality at the same time?!
Knowledge is a very powerful tool and if we (as society) aren't afraid let them learn, we might actually see a decline on many abortions, adoptions and unnecissary burdens on our teens.
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Old Jun 2nd, 2003, 09:32 PM       
That is so gay!!

But honestly, I think it's a stupid idea anyway. Everyone knows that kids below 18 aren't going to take that question seriously, with the exception of a select few and everyone will say, "yes, I'm gay" just to get a few laughs.


And Vince, as far as "shoving" sex down children's throats...please tell me you are not more ignorant than I thought before in thinking that kids don't see it outside of school, everywhere around them and they aren't having sex.....B/c condoms make kids have sex...right?
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Old Jun 3rd, 2003, 06:40 AM       
yes ah...what i find ridiculous about sex education is how schools start the program earlier and earlier every year. My little brother had it when he was in 3rd grade....8 years old.

I know that kids nowadays are familiar with sex, but usually not the technicality of it.


...which reminds me...when i was at my baptist school, i remember my religion teacher talking to us about the male reproductive system and having an overhead pic of a penis on the wall....the whole wall. shout to the lord.
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Old Jun 3rd, 2003, 08:51 AM       
Uhhhh, punkgrrrrl (nice trendy girl spelling, btw), we do it as a society, not just in the schools.
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Old Jun 3rd, 2003, 10:13 AM       
I'm not aware of any studies of sexual abuse by authority group leaders sperating them by afilliation.

I could be wrong.

Maybe there are studies along these lines.

Anyone?

You know, like side by side stats for Priests, Rabbis, Scout Leaders, teachers, etc?

Vinth, any help here? 'Cause you said, look at any study, so I'm guessing your pretty conversant with the research literature as opposed to just venting steam out your blowhole based on what you personlly think.
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Jun 3rd, 2003, 11:01 AM       
Do I look like Lexus/Nexus, dumbass? You can look for yourself. Anything I find you could just discredit to begin with because it came from one of my sources.
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Old Jun 3rd, 2003, 11:29 AM       
Hey, I was just pointing out that you were yawping off the top of your pointy little head, chumbucket. If you don't care to look marginally less stupid, that's your affair.
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Old Jun 3rd, 2003, 08:51 PM       
What's lexus/nexus? Info site? That is so wierd b/c Lexis-Nexis is the legal research site.
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Old Jun 4th, 2003, 01:07 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Anything I find you could just discredit to begin with because it came from one of my sources.
Sources? Like your ass?
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