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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 09:44 AM        WikiLeaks
Have they arrested the wikileaks guy yet? I can't be bothered to google.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 11:56 AM       
Under what charges?
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 12:13 PM       
Communist ideology.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 12:19 PM       
He raped a couple girls in Sweden.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 12:43 PM       
I thought that was just hearsay.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 12:58 PM       
The CIA is back on the job!
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 01:00 PM       
Might be. But it's formal charges, now.

He was charged with that sex by surprise nonsense earlier - I wonder if these are the same girls from that and they were pressured by the government into charging with rape.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 01:01 PM       
he was arrested in london, refused bail and he's currently fighting extradition to sweden for sexual molestation charges
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 03:51 PM       
http://yearinreview.yahoo.com/2010/u...010%20Searches

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Originally Posted by Yahoo
  1. BP Oil Spill
  2. World Cup
  3. Miley Cyrus
  4. Kim Kardashian
  5. Lady Gaga
  6. iPhone
  7. Megan Fox
  8. Justin Bieber
  9. American Idol
  10. Britney Spears
Spoilers!
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 05:49 PM       
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Originally Posted by yahoo
  1. BP Oil Spill
  2. World Cup
  3. Miley Cyrus
  4. Kim Kardashian
  5. Lady Gaga
  6. iPhone
  7. Megan Fox
  8. Justin Bieber
  9. American Idol
  10. Britney Spears
Where's Mel Gibson?
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 05:01 PM       
He definitely didn't rape those girls. That whole affair is just extremely embarrassing for Sweden and our judicial system.
And it's probably just the beginning of all the smear campaigns, setups and dirty business facing Assange. I admire him immensely, and I think if there were more people like him, the world would be a better place.
Tear.

Edit:
Here's the op-ed Assange authored for The Australian yesterday.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 07:03 AM       
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Originally Posted by Blasted Child View Post
He definitely didn't rape those girls. That whole affair is just extremely embarrassing for Sweden and our judicial system.
And it's probably just the beginning of all the smear campaigns, setups and dirty business facing Assange. I admire him immensely, and I think if there were more people like him, the world would be a better place.
Tear.

Edit:
Here's the op-ed Assange authored for The Australian yesterday.
You admire a guy who is a hacker? A guy who steals information that should never be public and makes it so? You admire a man who's actions show him to be an anarchist? You want more people like him around?

I got news for you, there are more people in te world like him, people who have no respect for privacy rights, people who are at their heart anarchists, and they are stealing identities right and left.

Maybe if you were a victim of these people, or had any empathy whatsoever for those who have been, your viewpoint would be different. These sorts of people are leeches and have no value to society, they are not heroes, they are criminals.

Of course there will be a smear campaign against him, and he will be fought by any means necessary. He has already proven he cannot be trusted. This isn't the first time someone dangerous has been stopped by alternate means. Al Capone was a horrible man who dodged justice as well. In the end they could not pin the crimes he was responsible for on him, so they stopped him by getting him for tax evasion.
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 08:52 AM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
You admire a guy who is a hacker? A guy who steals information that should never be public and makes it so? You admire a man who's actions show him to be an anarchist? You want more people like him around?
Information that should never be made public. Is there really ever such a thing? Is there some truth out there that SHOULD be kept secret so that nobody will ever find out, ever, lest it endanger human kind somehow? So far, no. Everything put through wikileaks are things that the public should know about their governments. The torture of people, the use of banned weapons on civilians, the war talk, and plotting to topple democratically elected governments.... people should know these truths, then they can decide if they want those sort of things to go on in the world. If you want to argue that plotting to attack Iran should be secret from IRAN lest they strike first and kill people etc etc.... do you really think Iran isn't planning war against the US as well?

"Lives are at stake" is something that I have heard several times on the news; but I haven't heard how they are a stake, whose lives and why. Weigh it up: which is more likely, that your government doesn't want people knowing about human rights abuses and shady political bullshit.... or that they are concerned people will get hurt as a result of people finding out about Israel bombing people with phosphorus artillery....?

It's not terrorism to break the news to the world that there is sort of shit going on. Don't shoot the messenger.

Oh, and I've read nothing about him that would suggest he is an anarchist. If he was then I would have more respect for him than now.
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I got news for you, there are more people in te world like him, people who have no respect for privacy rights, people who are at their heart anarchists, and they are stealing identities right and left.
You're saying that Julian Assange is stealing people's identities, and has no respect for privacy rights? Who's privacy rights? A government should have no right to privacy, and should be open to the people it claims to defend and serve. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but if it has THESE secrets that we now know about, what else isn't your government (and mine, and his, and hers) telling you?

I think Assange was charged with some cyber hacking in his yoof, which you may be referring to, but that's not what he is doing now. He's not hacking government websites to steal info, he is offering a medium for whistle-blowers to get their stuff out there. Isn't some US private still being held in prison without trial over being a whistle-blower on Abu-Gahrib prisoner abuses, or something along those lines? You punish the person that speaks up about abuse and torture, but not the torturers. Nice.


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Maybe if you were a victim of these people, or had any empathy whatsoever for those who have been, your viewpoint would be different. These sorts of people are leeches and have no value to society, they are not heroes, they are criminals.
Which victims? The US government? Several governments have been forced to address facts about their actions. Things which should ALWAYS be under public scrutiny. If you know of any human victims, then let me know.

Quote:
Of course there will be a smear campaign against him, and he will be fought by any means necessary. He has already proven he cannot be trusted. This isn't the first time someone dangerous has been stopped by alternate means. Al Capone was a horrible man who dodged justice as well. In the end they could not pin the crimes he was responsible for on him, so they stopped him by getting him for tax evasion.
Alternate means to justice. Nice. I doubt he will end up dead any time soon, although I'm not writing it off completely, but you really think he doesn't deserve a trial in his OWN country? This is a really horrible thing about today; your government tells you that they are terrorists, and since they are terrorists they don't deserve the right to prove otherwise. You think that lies should be told to fight him, and that any means should be used to stop him, that's a reall.... ah, it just hit me, am I being.... trolled?
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 12:46 PM       
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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
... <lots of good points>
I have to agree with Zhukov on this one. As far as his work at Wikileaks goes the guy isnt guilty of anything other than enforcing the freedom of information act. This kind of stuff needs to be out their.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 06:04 PM       
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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Information that should never be made public. Is there really ever such a thing?
Military secrets. Telling the world where a government is placing troops is doing just that, of course you hate America so I am not even going to try and persuade you why this is wrong to do to any country, but I will ask you to tell me how you would feel if it were done to say, China, or Cuba?

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Is there some truth out there that SHOULD be kept secret so that nobody will ever find out, ever, lest it endanger human kind somehow? So far, no. Everything put through wikileaks are things that the public should know about their governments. The torture of people, the use of banned weapons on civilians, the war talk, and plotting to topple democratically elected governments.... people should know these truths, then they can decide if they want those sort of things to go on in the world. If you want to argue that plotting to attack Iran should be secret from IRAN lest they strike first and kill people etc etc.... do you really think Iran isn't planning war against the US as well?
So then why isn't he doing the same thing to other countries? Why only the US? Until he does, this counterargument comes off as empty.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
"Lives are at stake" is something that I have heard several times on the news; but I haven't heard how they are a stake, whose lives and why. Weigh it up: which is more likely, that your government doesn't want people knowing about human rights abuses and shady political bullshit.... or that they are concerned people will get hurt as a result of people finding out about Israel bombing people with phosphorus artillery....?
Again, until I see him do this to other countries besides the US, I have to assume this is an anti American act of cyber-terrorism, and defending it comes off as just anti American sour grapes. If you want to defend what he did because you hate America, be a man and say so. But don't pretend to be altruistic about it when this is a single target expose and when we all know much worse human rights violations are going on unexposed in many other countries (North Korea anyone?)

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
It's not terrorism to break the news to the world that there is sort of shit going on. Don't shoot the messenger.
But it is terrorism to threaten to drop more information as he keeps repeatedly doing. If he was as altruistic as you you are now implying, why not drop it all? Why this slow leak? Could it be he wants to hit the snooze alarm repeatedly on his 15 minutes of fame? Seems that way to me, and his actions support this view

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Oh, and I've read nothing about him that would suggest he is an anarchist. If he was then I would have more respect for him than now.
I judge a man by his actions, and to me his actions are those of an anarchist

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You're saying that Julian Assange is stealing people's identities, and has no respect for privacy rights?
I compared his hacking to another group who hacks and steals information for personal gain. His personal gain is fame, theirs is money, neither are doing it for selfless reasons.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Who's privacy rights? A government should have no right to privacy, and should be open to the people it claims to defend and serve. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but if it has THESE secrets that we now know about, what else isn't your government (and mine, and his, and hers) telling you?
Classified information is classified for a reason. You act like the US is the first country in the universe to ever have secrets. I am willing to bet the USSR has stories that would make your skin crawl with things they did that violated human rights.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I think Assange was charged with some cyber hacking in his yoof, which you may be referring to, but that's not what he is doing now. He's not hacking government websites to steal info, he is offering a medium for whistle-blowers to get their stuff out there. Isn't some US private still being held in prison without trial over being a whistle-blower on Abu-Gahrib prisoner abuses, or something along those lines? You punish the person that speaks up about abuse and torture, but not the torturers. Nice.


Which victims? The US government? Several governments have been forced to address facts about their actions. Things which should ALWAYS be under public scrutiny. If you know of any human victims, then let me know.
This one is easy to address, if he is whistle blowing military secrets (like exposing where US stations troops) then we are compromised strategically, which can lead to a diminished military, which can in turn lead to another attack on US soil. I personally have seen enough of that for one lifetime and do not want to tempt other groups to attack us because our military has been compromised.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Alternate means to justice. Nice. I doubt he will end up dead any time soon, although I'm not writing it off completely, but you really think he doesn't deserve a trial in his OWN country? This is a really horrible thing about today; your government tells you that they are terrorists, and since they are terrorists they don't deserve the right to prove otherwise. You think that lies should be told to fight him, and that any means should be used to stop him, that's a reall.... ah, it just hit me, am I being.... trolled?
Don't you think to get a trial in your country you should commit crimes against that country instead of another one? If you don't want to be on trial in the US try this simple tip; don't commit crimes against the US

That's like saying a woman who gets raped in America by a foreigner has no rights to justice because the rapist was from another country. You just think he should avoid the US justice system because it was a crime against an entity you clearly dislike
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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 10:35 PM       
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Originally Posted by Pentegarn View Post
Military secrets. Telling the world where a government is placing troops is doing just that, of course you hate America so I am not even going to try and persuade you why this is wrong to do to any country, but I will ask you to tell me how you would feel if it were done to say, China, or Cuba?
I hate the US government, but I'd say I hate the Chinese government more. I strongly dislike the Cuban government. I don't hate Americans, Chinese or Cubans. I don't know what my personal views on nations has anything to do with anything right now though. I would feel great if more information was leaked about more governments; the more the merrier. If they start realising that they are slightly more accountable for their actions than before, then maybe less human rights abuses etc will happen.

Quote:
So then why isn't he doing the same thing to other countries? Why only the US? Until he does, this counterargument comes off as empty.
He isn't personally 'hacking' US government websites or crap like that, he is providing a medium for OTHER WHISTLE-BLOWERS to post their information so that the world can see it. He is not personally collecting anything, the website relies on people that have become fed up at seeing criminal activity go on behind closed curtains and want to speak out about it. Other countries have been mentioned in the wikileaks quite often, including Israel, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka... you don't read that because you are watching the news in America and it's only the SAFETY OF AMERICA that is the issue with wikileaks.

Hopefully people from more nations choose to speak out about criminal activities that their governments are responsible for. We all know it happens, but when it comes to light as fact, something you can't dodge, then more and more people will demand change.


Quote:
Again, until I see him do this to other countries besides the US, I have to assume this is an anti American act of cyber-terrorism, and defending it comes off as just anti American sour grapes. If you want to defend what he did because you hate America, be a man and say so. But don't pretend to be altruistic about it when this is a single target expose and when we all know much worse human rights violations are going on unexposed in many other countries (North Korea anyone?)
Again, he's not 'targeting' any one nation since all he is doing is providing an avenue for (so far) predominately US whistle-blowers. It's highly unlikely that documents pertaining to North Korean activities will surface, since it's highly unlikely that any North Korean with access to said information would survive.

All we have to go on about Nth Korean abuses stems from defectors, some reasonably high ranking, that have pretty much 'exposed' all the information that any sane person would need. Who doesn't know that North Korea is a horrible place to live where government sanctioned torture and crime, as well as political espionage etc, goes on daily?

Not that it has anything to do with Julian Assange or wikileaks, since they can't magic up a whistle-blower from nowhere, and can't hack into Nth Korean government documents, but do we NEED Nth Korean leaked information, or do we need to find out the secrets from the western governments, the ones that claim to serve and protect us and the ones that claim their wars are legal, and that torture is not something they partake in? We need to know what is going on with our own governments (and I really hope that more Australian documents come to light) since you and I are citizens of our own countries, and can affect change if needed.




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But it is terrorism to threaten to drop more information as he keeps repeatedly doing. If he was as altruistic as you you are now implying, why not drop it all? Why this slow leak? Could it be he wants to hit the snooze alarm repeatedly on his 15 minutes of fame? Seems that way to me, and his actions support this view
Why drop it all at once when the information will just get lost in a sea of information? That's counter-productive to the aim - let people know what is going on. Plus, all the information doesn't come out at the same time, it trickles in, so it trickles out.

Interesting note that I was unaware of at first, before the first major leak of US documents, all 500 thousand odd cables were made available to US analysis. Wikileaks itself checked all the content and blanked out any names they thought might be too sensitive or too dangerous to put in public.

Requests by wikileaks for the documents to be reviewed by the US were rejected. Wikileaks sent to the US ambassador in London a request: that wikileaks "would be grateful for the United States Government to privately nominate any specific instances ... where it considers the publication of information would put individual persons at significant risk of harm..."

Obviously the US government isn't too concerned about 'lives at risk' since it rejected the call on the grounds that US departments would "not engage in a negotiation" with wikileaks about the documents. Surely it would have been better for those at supposed risk if you read through the documents and blanked their names? Even IF you believed wikileaks wouldn't follow through on it's promise to respect such instances of individual risk, wouldn't it be better to TRY rather than just WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS and leave it at that? Wikileaks still blanked out many names, as previously stated, in the interests of privacy.


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I compared his hacking to another group who hacks and steals information for personal gain. His personal gain is fame, theirs is money, neither are doing it for selfless reasons.
That's a pretty big stretch of a comparison... the only link is that you think neither of them do what the do for personal gain. Santa Clause is just like a rapist, since they both do what they do to get a warm, fuzzy feeling inside themselves. Santa gives gifts, and a rapist rapes, but still - the same. Who is this 'other group' that hacks for money, by the way?

So you think that Julian Assange is doing all this for fame? The guy has had calls to assassinate him, serious ones. People in the US government have asked for him to be hunted down and neutralised. Fame? Honestly, there are better ways. It's a lot of work just for 'fame'. Wikileaks has been operating for, what, 5 years, and Assange himself is only just now 'famous', and I honestly believe that he would prefer it if he wasn't so widely known.


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Classified information is classified for a reason. You act like the US is the first country in the universe to ever have secrets. I am willing to bet the USSR has stories that would make your skin crawl with things they did that violated human rights.
You don't need to guess at what the USSR did to violate human rights, since a lot of documents were made public over the years since the break up of the USSR. You don't need to hit me in the guts with how bad the USSR was in cases of human rights; I am a more honest critic of the Soviet Union than most.

How do you know that classified information is classified for a GOOD reason? It's classified so that normal every day people don't get a chance to decide for themselves. Who decides what should be classified and what shouldn't? The same people that the classified documents are about... doesn't that strike you as a little bit of a bias? Knowing what we know now about most of these 'classified documents', they are kept secret for the sole reason that people wouldn't find out about criminal behaviour and therefore not endanger lives, but endanger the system of abuse the US government upholds.

Why do Sri Lankan war crimes need to be kept classified? Most of the leaked documents are classified because it is scandalous criminal activity that is going on - the exact same things that citizens of any country should know about their government.


Quote:
This one is easy to address, if he is whistle blowing military secrets (like exposing where US stations troops) then we are compromised strategically, which can lead to a diminished military, which can in turn lead to another attack on US soil. I personally have seen enough of that for one lifetime and do not want to tempt other groups to attack us because our military has been compromised.
I personaly haven't seen (I haven't read a large percentage of the hundreds of thousands of documents, surprise, surprise) any troop placement documents; if there are then I actually don't see it as that big a deal. What information is being given away? Where the US military ahs bases? I thought most of that was common knowledge. Just because Al-Qaeda finds out that you have a base in Swaziland doesn't mean that they will attack it, I figure they have enough targets as it is. Iran finding out about your secret bases on it's border would be something different, but I would say that setting up secret bases in sensitive places with a need for secrecy is asking for an attack anyhow. The point still stands though that Julian Assange is not blowing whistles on military secrets, wikileaks has provided an avenue for US military personnel to blow whistles.


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Don't you think to get a trial in your country you should commit crimes against that country instead of another one? If you don't want to be on trial in the US try this simple tip; don't commit crimes against the US

That's like saying a woman who gets raped in America by a foreigner has no rights to justice because the rapist was from another country. You just think he should avoid the US justice system because it was a crime against an entity you clearly dislike
He hasn't committed any crimes, nor will he get a trial in ANY country, most likely. A kangaroo court, perhaps. Better a trial by the US justice system than a US military tribunal, or 'sustained detention'.

What I was referring to though was thee fact that our PM has called him a criminal and said his actions are illegal. I think US officials have just stated how they want him to disappear, not that he has broken the law. If he has supposedly committed a crime against Australia (Which is unlikely) then if he is captured/detained (which is likely) he should get a fair trial in Australia. Note that you need to have proper reasons to BRING him to trial first. Or should.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 06:27 PM       
get this- he's not actually being charged with raping those girls, at least not the sort of "rape" we think of. for case one he's being charged with coercion which is considered rape under swedish law. in case two he is being charged with sexual molestation because the condom broke and in sweden unprotected sex = illegal.

so..even if he is guilty all he's done is talk one girl into boning him and had unprotected sex with another? where's finland when you need clarification
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 06:42 PM       
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get this- he's not actually being charged with raping those girls, at least not the sort of "rape" we think of. for case one he's being charged with coercion which is considered rape under swedish law. in case two he is being charged with sexual molestation because the condom broke and in sweden unprotected sex = illegal.

so..even if he is guilty all he's done is talk one girl into boning him and had unprotected sex with another? where's finland when you need clarification
By this definition isnt all consensual sex illegal? Way to go Sweden.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 04:16 AM       
The whole thing is a bloody disgrace, as usual. I'm looking forward to more leaks of this sort, and hopefully it will start something of a trend in journalism. Assange said that a major US bank is the next target to have it's shit brought out into the public.

WIKILEAKED:

US diplomats 'bargained' with Slovenia and Kiribati to take Guantanamo Bay captives in exchange for a visit from Obama (maybe it was Oprah?) or million dollar economic deals.

Russian government has ties with organised crime and mafia.

US ambassador in Sri Lanka admits that the government has closed all investigations into war crimes against Tamils.

US Embassy found Afghanistan's vice president carrying $52 million in cash during a trip to Dubai in 2009. Left well alone.

US diplomats in Sth America told to concentrate on isolating and undermining Venezuela. Other left wing governments targeted for 'information collection'.

US ambassador to Honduras describes violent military coup there to be "clearly illegal" and "illegitimate". Left well alone.

Israel, Saudi Arabia and Jordan pressure US to attack Iran.

Saudi nationals biggest donors to Al-Qaeda. Left well alone.

Israel and US chats about preemptive strikes on Iran; what to do, what not to do.
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Old Dec 7th, 2010, 06:30 PM       
Sex by surprise. Yeah, shit's crazy. What's better - http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm

Get a load of this horseshit.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 09:36 AM       
Am I the only one who thinks of Bond villains every time I look at that guy? Something about him just screams Bond villain.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 09:48 AM       
I thought those guys lived in hollowed-out secret volcano lairs, not couch-surfing in Europe.

Pentagarn, are you trolling? Goddamn. Anarchy != chaos, go to college and/or wikipedia to learn things

I thought the "lives at stake" thing sprung from how he released a billion thousand Afghanistan Black Ops dox, which terrorists could peruse at their leisure for info on how the military works, and find weaknesses to exploit. To someone who's only been arsed to read about ten of the leaked documents, this sounds credible, I guess? What I saw was more like police reports than disclosure of vital combat stratagems. Like, "We recieved tips that these guys were cultivating poppies to pay for terroristy shit, so we went and checked them out. They had a shit ton of opium, so we took them into custody."

Of course, with the new stuff, it's like America's diary has been photocopied and mailed to everyone else at school, and we've done nothing in it but talk shit about everyone while also making plans to exploit them for fun and profit. Anyone with enough balls to release something like that has my vote, because that is hilarious.

Last edited by Guitar Woman : Dec 8th, 2010 at 10:24 AM.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 10:55 AM       
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Originally Posted by Guitar Woman View Post
I thought the "lives at stake" thing sprung from how he released a billion thousand Afghanistan Black Ops dox, which terrorists could peruse at their leisure for info on how the military works, and find weaknesses to exploit.
Yes, that's the argument. But it's bunkum because it's basically just what you described; war logs. 'Lives at Risk' is the best that they can come up with to defend the secrecy about the whole business, from war logs to human rights abuse, to diplomatic embarrassments. Actively ignoring war crimes is probably more risky for peoples lives.

Kitsa, it's the whitish hair and the black suit/shirt combo that he likes to sport.
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Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 01:36 PM       
For one, I'd like to see a few more leaks targeting, for example, secret documents out of Beijing, Moscow, or - dare I say it - al-Qaeda. But I realize it's more cachet to embarrass the "ugly Americans".

Kit - he's no Blofeld, but I definitely see the connection.
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Old Dec 8th, 2010, 02:08 PM       
You wouldn't get leaks out of Beijing or Moscow because anyone like Pfc. Bradley Manning who did something like that in those places would suddenly disappear.
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