Benefits of outsourcing to the economy.

[punkgrrrlie10]

EVERYONE BENEFITS!!!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...xecutives_dc_1

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Chief executives at U.S. companies that shipped jobs overseas won a 46 percent pay hike last year, more than five times the average CEO raise, while ordinary workers' paychecks barely budged, a study showed on Tuesday.



In its annual look at CEO compensation, the nonprofit liberal Institute for Policy Studies found executive pay at the 50 firms outsourcing the most service-sector jobs increased 46 percent in 2003, while the average CEO got a 9 percent raise and regular workers saw a 2 percent boost in pay.


"The fact that leading outsourcers make more money than average CEOs is one more reflection of a perverse system that rewards executives for making decisions that may improve their bottom line while hurting workers and communities," the Institute said in its 11th annual survey.


The study found the average compensation for chief executives at the top 50 outsourcing companies was $10.4 million last year, 28 percent above that of executives at 365 large companies surveyed by Business Week magazine, who earned about $8.1 million each.


CEO pay overall was 301 times higher than the $26,899 earned by the average production worker, the study showed. That's up from about 42 times that of the average worker in 1982.


The study's definition of compensation includes salary, bonuses, restricted stock, long-term incentive payouts, other annual compensation and the value of stock options exercised. It does not include the estimated value of options granted but not exercised.


The institute said it was not able to calculate the exact number of U.S. jobs affected by outsourcing last year because shipping jobs overseas has become such a sensitive political issue that firms try to avoid reporting such jobs losses.


The study focused on the 50 companies "on the forefront of the outsourcing trend" based on a database compiled by the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, an affiliate of the Communications Workers of America labor group.


HOT POTATO


The top 50 outsourcing firms included United Technologies Corp., where CEO George David's pay rose 629 percent to $70.5 million last year; Citigroup, where outgoing CEO Sanford Weill's pay rose 305 percent to $54.1 million; and software giant Oracle, where CEO Lawrence Ellison's pay rose 103,974 percent to $40.6 million, according to the study.


Outsourcing has become a political hot potato in America, where job growth has lagged the economic recovery, and both President Bush (news - web sites) and Democratic rival John Kerry (news - web sites) have struggled to reassure workers there is a solution.


According to Forrester Research, more than 3 million service jobs will move offshore by 2015 -- many of them white-collar, high-tech or call-center jobs to India.


Some economists and policy-makers have said the shift will benefit the nation in the long run by lowering the price of goods and services and boosting profits, but U.S. workers argue they cannot afford to buy anything if they don't have jobs.


The study noted that if the U.S. minimum wage had increased as quickly as CEO pay has since 1990, it would be $15.76 an hour instead of the current $5.15.


The study noted the pay for CEOs who outsource was about 3,300 times the pay of an Indian call center employee or 1,300 times that of an average Indian computer programer.

[The One and Only...]

50 firms is a fairly small sample space. I can very easily see how that might have been tortured.

Some economists and policy-makers have said the shift will benefit the nation in the long run by lowering the price of goods and services and boosting profits, but U.S. workers argue they cannot afford to buy anything if they don't have jobs.

That's only half the story. Outsourcing is supposed to also increase the quality of jobs in America, because more of them will rely on a higher education base. And for the last time, OUTSOURCING DOES NOT CAUSE JOB LOSS.

[AChimp]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

That's only half the story. Outsourcing is supposed to also increase the quality of jobs in America, because more of them will rely on a higher education base. And for the last time, OUTSOURCING DOES NOT CAUSE JOB LOSS.

No, but it leaves people who aren't qualified for the "new and better" jobs shit out of luck, doesn't it? It ends up lowering the quality of THEIR job, because now they have to go work at Wal-Mart without benefits. Not that it isn't anyone's doing but theirs, however now you have a growing segment of your population that has to re-educate and is none too happy about it.

A lot of times those people are too old for it to make any difference anyways. They end up being poor, their kids end up being poor, and it goes on and on.

Now, it's true that out-sourcing ends up doing more good than bad in the long run. North America would still be purely manufacturing based, whereas more than half of the economy is powered by the service industry now; we outsourced all of our manufacturing to Asia. However, the "new and better" jobs are gobbled up by the people who already had a high enough education to fill them to begin with. The people who are unemployed can't fill the gaps because they aren't qualified, otherwise they would have had those jobs to begin with.

Long term = good. Short term = bad.

[Zebra 3]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

And for the last time, OUTSOURCING DOES NOT CAUSE JOB LOSS.

- All girly men know or should know that during the Moron's term in office there's been 1M net jobs lost with an additional 1M Americans now living below the poverty line, something for some reason(s) was overlooked during the last Republican Nat'l Convention, hmm.

[The One and Only...]

Which can be traced to outsourcing... how?

Chimp, you need to understand that most jobs which are outsourced don't really have an education base. They are labor jobs. There doesn't need to be any new "re-education".

The necessary education base for jobs will only rise very slowly, almost certainly within perameters which will not cause a massive displacement of workers. What's going to happen in the short term is that manufacturing jobs will be replaced with service jobs. So I will give you some credit, many people may very well work at a Wal-Mart; the thing is, I imagine that as a major improvement over back-breaking manual labor.

[AChimp]

Chimp, you need to understand that most jobs which are outsourced don't really have an education base. They are labor jobs. There doesn't need to be any new "re-education".

Here's where all the naivete that hides behind your chubby little face shines through especially brightly.

You have no concept of how much training goes into a "labor job" because you've never held a real job. You should pick up some vocational courses (of which I doubt your privately-endowed, middle-class suburban public school offers very many). I'm surprised your bankrupt parents didn't send your ass out to deliver papers every day so you could have your three bowls of Corn Puffs for breakfast.

Suppose you are trained as a worker on a particular kind of industrial press. That's all you operate, you're really good at it, and you've been doing it for 15 years. Then you find out that your job has been moved to Mexico because someone there will do it for 10x less than you and not ask for lunch breaks. No other company for five states in all directions uses the same press, and no one is looking for workers, either. What now? You have to retrain and start at the bottom of the ladder all over again, throwing away all those years of brain capital you've accumulated.

Not to mention the ENTIRE tech industry. You need a university degree to work successfully in that field.

the thing is, I imagine that as a major improvement over back-breaking manual labor.

LOL!

If that wasn't such a stupid, pompous thing to say, it would go in my signature.

This just goes to show exactly how little experience you have in these matters, yet here you are running your fat little fingers off about them.

Would you rather work on construction for $20/hour, 12 hours a day, 4 days a week OR $5.15/hour, 4 hours a day for 5 days a week. Now imagine you have two fat little kids such as yourself that love Corn Puffs as much as you do.

I think I can guess what a fatbody like you would pick.

[punkgrrrlie10]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Which can be traced to outsourcing... how?

Chimp, you need to understand that most jobs which are outsourced don't really have an education base. They are labor jobs. There doesn't need to be any new "re-education".

The necessary education base for jobs will only rise very slowly, almost certainly within perameters which will not cause a massive displacement of workers. What's going to happen in the short term is that manufacturing jobs will be replaced with service jobs. So I will give you some credit, many people may very well work at a Wal-Mart; the thing is, I imagine that as a major improvement over back-breaking manual labor.

With the exception of Wal-Mart being investigated for not properly paying their workers and with holding benefits and the back-breaking labor being unionized and paying well. Some people would prefer those jobs to working at wal-mart. Not everyone is going to go to college and not many can live off minimum wage, especially with a family.

[conus]

Chimp, you need to understand that most jobs which are outsourced don't really have an education base. They are labor jobs. There doesn't need to be any new "re-education".

The necessary education base for jobs will only rise very slowly, almost certainly within perameters which will not cause a massive displacement of workers. What's going to happen in the short term is that manufacturing jobs will be replaced with service jobs. So I will give you some credit, many people may very well work at a Wal-Mart; the thing is, I imagine that as a major improvement over back-breaking manual labor.

This is my good deed for the day, a tip that may help you in the future. The thing to remember about pomposity and condescension is that they'll only be effective for you if you carefully choose your audience. Otherwise you run the risk of sounding like some half-bright nitwit whose self estimation doesn't coincide with the general consensus.

[AChimp]

IT'S OKAY, GUYS. I HAVE THINGS UNDER CONTROL.

OAO is currently nursing a shredded asshole. He won't be able to post for several days, whereupon he will forget that a thread like this ever happened. :O

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by AChimp

Here's where all the naivete that hides behind your chubby little face shines through especially brightly.

You have no concept of how much training goes into a "labor job" because you've never held a real job. You should pick up some vocational courses (of which I doubt your privately-endowed, middle-class suburban public school offers very many). I'm surprised your bankrupt parents didn't send your ass out to deliver papers every day so you could have your three bowls of Corn Puffs for breakfast.

Suppose you are trained as a worker on a particular kind of industrial press. That's all you operate, you're really good at it, and you've been doing it for 15 years. Then you find out that your job has been moved to Mexico because someone there will do it for 10x less than you and not ask for lunch breaks. No other company for five states in all directions uses the same press, and no one is looking for workers, either. What now? You have to retrain and start at the bottom of the ladder all over again, throwing away all those years of brain capital you've accumulated.

Not to mention the ENTIRE tech industry. You need a university degree to work successfully in that field.

You don't know anything about trade theory, do you?

Labor jobs requiring a high entry-level education base - no matter what that education may be in - are highly unlikely to be outsourced. Ones which require much less entry education and may require higher levels of continuing education to keep up with technological advancements are far more likely to be. So saying that jobs in which years of training to become skilled at doing are going to be outsourced has very little basis.

There's another thing you need to know as well, namely that it's far more likely for a corporation to outsource new jobs created during business expansion than existing ones. The biggest critique of outsourcing is based around the argument that it somehow slows job growth, not increases job loss. So it's quite possible that Mr. Worker won't lose his job in the first place.

Just because you're proficient with an industrial press doesn't mean you can't adapt to a new work environment. Society progresses. Are you saying we should still be telegraphing people because the development of the phone displaced workers who produced the former? I certainly hope not.

LOL!

If that wasn't such a stupid, pompous thing to say, it would go in my signature.

This just goes to show exactly how little experience you have in these matters, yet here you are running your fat little fingers off about them.

Would you rather work on construction for $20/hour, 12 hours a day, 4 days a week OR $5.15/hour, 4 hours a day for 5 days a week. Now imagine you have two fat little kids such as yourself that love Corn Puffs as much as you do.

I think I can guess what a fatbody like you would pick.

That's the most retarded example I've ever heard.

You're talking about construction jobs. How the hell are construction jobs going to be outsourced? Oh, that's right, THEY AREN'T. What are the big bad corporations going to do, fly in buildings built by Nicaraguans? I don't think so.

With the exception of Wal-Mart being investigated for not properly paying their workers and with holding benefits and the back-breaking labor being unionized and paying well. Some people would prefer those jobs to working at wal-mart. Not everyone is going to go to college and not many can live off minimum wage, especially with a family.

Wal-Mart is also an extreme example. By and large, anybody with a freakin high school diploma can find a better place to work.

IT'S OKAY, GUYS. I HAVE THINGS UNDER CONTROL.

OAO is currently nursing a shredded asshole. He won't be able to post for several days, whereupon he will forget that a thread like this ever happened. :O

Actually, I think I can manage to type while I nurse your ass.

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

You don't know anything about trade theory, do you?

Here's your problem. All you have is theory.

So saying that jobs in which years of training to become skilled at doing are going to be outsourced has very little basis.

He didn't say that at all - his example involved a guy operating a simple piece of machinery for many years. Again, you have no basis in reality for this, or you'd know that most labor businesses have a hierarchy system based on seniorty in relation to their function. If you were a driver at Rite-Aid (drives forklifts) and had your job taken away, you'd be sent back down to the 'picker' level (takes products from one place, puts them in another, usually boxes), which pays far less. You would not be eligible for other low-education-level positions in the factory, because things have changed since you had the driver job, and need to be re-trained to start over again in that field, while your pay suffers. While this example in particular doesn't involve outsourcing, the same consequences apply.

Are you saying we should still be telegraphing people because the development of the phone displaced workers who produced the former? I certainly hope not.

Way to ask a question that doesn't relate to the topic at all. You sure dodged that one, Houdini.

You're talking about construction jobs. How the hell are construction jobs going to be outsourced? Oh, that's right, THEY AREN'T.

He didn't say construction would be outsourced, he said it'd be one of the job options left. I know your screen vibrates with every crunchy mouthful of sugar-coated Apple Jacks you ladle into it, but do try to keep up.

Wal-Mart is also an extreme example. By and large, anybody with a freakin high school diploma can find a better place to work.

No.

Actually, I think I can manage to type while I nurse your ass.

That's pretty hot. Did anyone else think that was totally hot?

[Anonymous]

Wal-Mart is also an extreme example. By and large, anybody with a freakin high school diploma can find a better place to work.

Hold on, I need to elaborate on this. Do you honestly think that the only people that work at Wal-Mart are people that couldn't graduate the seventh grade? Such people wouldn't be useful at all in clerking or inventory or stock room. Clerk jobs and manual labor ARE your only options for outside employment if you only have a high school diploma. No matter how many bright red apples you deliver to teach with a bite in, concealed with construction paper cause it was late mom didn't pack enough sandwiches and a full stomach is a clear mind am i right guys and you just couldn't help yourself.

[AChimp]

You don't know anything about trade theory, do you?

Chojin is right. YOU don't know anything about real life. All your pretty little theories look great on paper, but rarely function that way reality.

Labor jobs requiring a high entry-level education base - no matter what that education may be in - are highly unlikely to be outsourced.

Uh huh... and what about when all 1000 low-education jobs in the same factory are out-sourced? Do they ever just say, "Okay, Bob. You and Joe can run the factory by yourselves since you know what you're doing. We're still gonna pay you a lot." No, those jobs move with the factory, too.

The whole point of out-sourcing is to save money and inflate the bottom line. Take a few business administration courses and you'll find out exactly how out-sourcing and lay-offs are handled in big companies.

So saying that jobs in which years of training to become skilled at doing are going to be outsourced has very little basis.

Re-read what Chojin said. It might sink in a little more, since it's probably taken you 10 minutes to read from up there to here (accounting for snack breaks).

Just because you're proficient with an industrial press doesn't mean you can't adapt to a new work environment. Society progresses. Are you saying we should still be telegraphing people because the development of the phone displaced workers who produced the former? I certainly hope not.

Your question is unrelated to anything that we're talking about. Telephone companies emerged from telegraph companies. When there's major technological shifts the industries that are involved retrain their own workers gradually because its cheaper to retain an employee than it is to hire a new one. The workers are happy, too, because they get to keep their job.

You're talking about construction jobs. How the hell are construction jobs going to be outsourced? Oh, that's right, THEY AREN'T.

Ready for this? Scroll back up to what Chojin said. Now think about it again and replace "construction" with any other manual labour job you can think of. I still say you'd pick the Wal-Mart job.

That's pretty hot. Did anyone else think that was totally hot?

Yeah, it was super hot. My ass feels really good after that nursing, but I think the laughing I do while reading OAO's dribbling is just making my stool softer.

[Zebra 3]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

There's another thing you need to know as well...

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...A box can be considered as one serving.[/center:186ace66ec]

[The One and Only...]

Originally Posted by Chojin

Here's your problem. All you have is theory.

No, there is quite a bit of empirical evidence that has been gathered in support of my arguments.

He didn't say that at all - his example involved a guy operating a simple piece of machinery for many years. Again, you have no basis in reality for this, or you'd know that most labor businesses have a hierarchy system based on seniorty in relation to their function. If you were a driver at Rite-Aid (drives forklifts) and had your job taken away, you'd be sent back down to the 'picker' level (takes products from one place, puts them in another, usually boxes), which pays far less. You would not be eligible for other low-education-level positions in the factory, because things have changed since you had the driver job, and need to be re-trained to start over again in that field, while your pay suffers. While this example in particular doesn't involve outsourcing, the same consequences apply.

I'm fully aware of that. What I'm saying is that those workers are far less likely to lose their jobs to outsourcing. As I said, it is far more likely that new factories will be moved to foreign nations rather than existing ones.

Plus, some companies do pay prospective employees with experience more from the start.

Way to ask a question that doesn't relate to the topic at all. You sure dodged that one, Houdini.

Think about it. In my question, I'm asking if we should have stopped progress because of job displacement. Now, granted, outsourcing doesn't increase technological advances, but it certainly speeds up societal advancement.

Hold on, I need to elaborate on this. Do you honestly think that the only people that work at Wal-Mart are people that couldn't graduate the seventh grade? Such people wouldn't be useful at all in clerking or inventory or stock room. Clerk jobs and manual labor ARE your only options for outside employment if you only have a high school diploma. No matter how many bright red apples you deliver to teach with a bite in, concealed with construction paper cause it was late mom didn't pack enough sandwiches and a full stomach is a clear mind am i right guys and you just couldn't help yourself.

You need to remember that I was critiquing very, very difficult forms of manual labor, not just stuff that you can do with your hands.

I can think of a few other things you can do with a high school diploma. How about being a secretary? Car mechanic? But even giving you the point, how many clerk jobs actually pay the bare minimum wage? I'm pretty sure some of the jobs require a bit more skill than simply being a cashier, which I'm pretty sure you don't need to hold a diploma.

BTW, it's small businesses which are most known for creating job growth, not large ones. Which is important, because many of them are better than Wal-Mart.

Uh huh... and what about when all 1000 low-education jobs in the same factory are out-sourced? Do they ever just say, "Okay, Bob. You and Joe can run the factory by yourselves since you know what you're doing. We're still gonna pay you a lot." No, those jobs move with the factory, too.

The whole point of out-sourcing is to save money and inflate the bottom line. Take a few business administration courses and you'll find out exactly how out-sourcing and lay-offs are handled in big companies.

I understand that outsourcing is hardly a humanitarian effort. However, you need to understand that closing an existing factory for the sole reason of moving to another country is not that common of an occurance.

Your question is unrelated to anything that we're talking about. Telephone companies emerged from telegraph companies. When there's major technological shifts the industries that are involved retrain their own workers gradually because its cheaper to retain an employee than it is to hire a new one. The workers are happy, too, because they get to keep their job.

That isn't true. Often technological advances come from newer, emerging companies that outcompete the outdated ones.

And Pops fucking blow.