Thank God this doesn't apply to the Catholic Church!

[kahljorn]

"Do you think Christians across this country, every day, don't spend countless hours helping the homeless, the poor, and hte needy? "

Again, is this the vast majority, or a small handful? Because I can tell you a few things right off the bat before we debate stupid topics like this: No matter what the topic, if it's about people there's always going to be some anomaly. In this case it's a matter of good people being everywhere, not a matter of all christians being good people. You act like I said everybody who's a member of the christian religion is a serial killer.

"What would qualify as compliance with one's religion? Are you sure it isn't your definition rather than the Bible's???"

Clearly if your religion is "Christianity" and Christian means to be christ-like then ham sandwich, right? Of all people Sadie should know this since the suffix IAN means, "Of, relating to, or resembling".
If it was compliance with the bible, then we would be taking into account all the rules. The ten commandments? Seven deadly sins(those aren't actually in the bible, though)? Do you want me to start naming off examples of people who have broken these? If it's about anything beyond that, than that is the topic I am discussing.

My question is: If the job of Christianity was to teach you how to be a certain person, what kind of person does it create, and is that creation exempliary of the Religion's mold?
If we're just talking about believing in god, than whooptifuckingdoo. I'll have you know, if that's the point you're trying to make I'll be disappointed in you.
If it's about worshipping god, than what better way to worship God than to follow the guidelines he set for you? Yea, we'll sing to him! that will make him forget about all the times I pissed on his shoes. It says that in the bible 482075 times: Sing praises to my name and piss upon my shoe. You know that's really just an old joke about them carving urinals in the figure of jesus christ, though.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You're right about one thing-- this is a stupid discussion, and it will go nowhere.

[kahljorn]

I'm pretty sure that could be said for 99.95% of the threads on this board, though. I doubt petty squabbling on a message board will cure world hunger.

[kellychaos]

I just hate the hypocrisy. Certainly, it would be impossible to emulate Christ and to follow all the rules but, at the same time, I can't tolerate those that don't and piously pretend they do ... you know, a little humility ... and I'm not talking the Falwell type after you've been caught red-handed ... so to speak.

[kahljorn]

Most christians don't even try to be christ-like. If you tell a christian the goal of the christian teachings is to become like jesus, they'll call you a blasphemer(This is from experience with people of distinct character, so I'm sure some would say 'damn right' or something of the sorts). They've deified it all to the point of lazyness and filth. They use God and Jesus as a weakness, a crutch, to satisfy their gluttonous ways. That's why I was saying they weren't religious.

Basically, they don't even try. It's like calling yourself a farmer, but you never grow any crops. I'd like to see you become spiritually rich in that sense. [/simpleexplanation]

And for sadie who may respond with "Spiritual and religious are different".. sure they are. But the goal of religion is to make people spiritual.[/i]

[ItalianStereotype]

make sweeping generalizations much, kahl?

I've always wondered why non-Christians feel the need to criticize Christians so heavily. if you don't want in the treehouse, fine, but stop throwing mudballs at us.

[ziggytrix]

You'll find that vocal critics of Christianity tend to be jilted former Christians, or people who have been harrassed by Christians.

It's kinda like anything else. A few assholes create a negative association for a whole group.

[kellychaos]

os simply, observers of society ... pick up a paper .. whatever

[kahljorn]

I wasn't criticizing christians, this is a topic of discussion right? Not a topic of personal opinion throwmybeliefsintotheblederism. I was criticizing the rat bastards who call themselves christians. I consider myself a christian in many ways, so fuck off the gravy train cocksucker. Just because I'm able to talk about something from a non-discriminatory view doesn't mean I'm actually discriminate towards it. If you want to pretend like the christian religion is doing the world alot of good, go the fuck ahead, but while that's happening think of the bastardizations that have occured because of it. If I actually have to discuss them, I may feel disgusted by you.

This behavior is exactly what I'm talking about, though, the people within a religion who are afraid to take responsibility for what other people do within it. Don't you have some kind of responsibility to make yourselves look good? Part of that might be accepting the bad and not hiding in lala pretend land. Pretending problems aren't there generally doesn't help, or haven't you learned that moral from fairy tales and after-school specials. If you want to fix a problem, you need to accept it's there. Hell, as a decent human being who's not a moron and an adult you should learn to accept it's there. Then maybe you can begin to improve things.
If you were religious that would be part of how you feel; but instead you consider it more like your favorite band or something: "Hey man, don't talk shit on Korn, they are my favorite band and you know what they try really hard to put out quality artistic music for our enjoyment okay and hey I wear the spiked necklace because it's a representation of my personality not to look cool or something....
P.S. Jocks suck"
Grow up, venerable fuckface.

There's been multiple occasions where I've defended christianity on this message board, from an actual scriptural stance, which for whatever reason none of the "Real christians" who were taking part couldn't muster up. So leave me alone, my opinions are obviously based on some kind of factual event.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

It's kinda like anything else. A few assholes create a negative association for a whole group.

Which I think sums up the problem with this discussion in a nutshell.

[kahljorn]

"also the only reason korn sucks is because people always talk shit on them and you know what it brings them down and it brings their fans down. My rock solid faith in the musical talents of korn is being moved by some jerk insulting me on the internet. Also, I won't discuss the fact that korn fans call themselves, "Maggots". So what, we like a little degradation, we like to be dirty. Our Sub-culture is so perfect nothing you say can change that! I throwup in my mother's panty drawer because I'm a rebel and I've detached from all that oral shit and I've proved it by vomiting her breastmilk out. Now I just fuck that's all we need is fucking, and making ourselves feel good. Fuck the music man, that's all I want. I want to feel goooooood."

the end.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

I was criticizing the rat bastards who call themselves christians.

Which you insinuated as being 99.99% of Christians.

[ItalianStereotype]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

This behavior is exactly what I'm talking about, though, the people within a religion who are afraid to take responsibility for what other people do within it. Don't you have some kind of responsibility to make yourselves look good? Part of that might be accepting the bad and not hiding in lala pretend land. Pretending problems aren't there generally doesn't help, or haven't you learned that moral from fairy tales and after-school specials. If you want to fix a problem, you need to accept it's there. Hell, as a decent human being who's not a moron and an adult you should learn to accept it's there. Then maybe you can begin to improve things.
If you were religious that would be part of how you feel; but instead you consider it more like your favorite band or something: "Hey man, don't talk shit on Korn, they are my favorite band and you know what they try really hard to put out quality artistic music for our enjoyment okay and hey I wear the spiked necklace because it's a representation of my personality not to look cool or something....
P.S. Jocks suck"
Grow up, venerable fuckface.

uh, so basically, ANSWER THE QUESTION

am I right?

[kahljorn]

I thought I said 99.95%. I don't know why you guys act like my numbers are correct, do you think I ran a poll or something? If it's not clear that I'm making up bullshit numbers to express the magnitude of something(and it is a magnitude) I suggest some kind of common sense meter being built into your computer. How many christians do you actually consider christ like? How many of them do you daily call a "Good reflection of jesus christ and his eternal soul". I'd say, for how many christians are actually christ-like, that's a decent estimation. Maybe knock it down a knotch or two. What do you think a good number would be for the number of Sons of God on this message board? How about on this planet?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I know many, many Christians who devote their entire lives to being "Christ like." They live below poverty in orderto be "Christ like."

And even if they didn't, so what? Your problem is that every outspoken Christian is Pat Robertson to you. When you see the word "Christian" you see in your head an old man in a suit banging his secretary on a desk over a few lines of cocaine. THAT is the anomaly, not the other way around.

Plus, your argument that people aren't really practicing Christians because they aren't like Christ tells me that you lack a fundamental understanding of Christianity. There can't be redemption without fucking up. Church isn't a place for saints, it's a place for sinners. And according to God, that's all of us.

[kahljorn]

Yea, well I did just talk about "Accepting problems" didn't i? That's what i was talking about, people who know they live in sin but do nothing productive to help it. "Oh, hey, I sin, I'll repent and pray, god will forgive me and i won't have to do anything". I think repentance might have a little to do with the progressive act of trying to make yourself a better person. But hey, what do i know. I'm the type who makes empty apologies to God.

In one of my previous posts I called myself a christian. So obviously I don't have some kind of presdisposition. Somehow it remains impossible for you to discuss the bad things of a religion(or anything else you favor) without it being discriminatory. So like i said: Fuck off the gravy train. I'm one of you guys.

While alot may try, not many actually attain any useful state. I never said that was a damnable sinful bad thing(unless to note their own beliefs), but I didn't say it was a good thing either. Quit playing the, "We christians are insulted all the time but we're not all bad" card, it's so lame. Nobody fucking cares, I was discussing this from a culturally relevant angle. Everybody knows that some people are good and some people are bad(the nature of culture.. and the world, maybe). The catch is that religion is supposed to help people get better. How successful is it? How many does it make bad? How many hate Gays and blacks? What the fuck do you want from me? I can't make you accept that there's evil in the world, you'll just have to stop being a pussy. It's a progressive movement, maybe you should progress instead of living withinin your childish nature so that you don't have to accept how fucked up you are and everybody you know. You lazy fucking animal. Sloth is a sin, remember.
Also, the argument that "Jilted former christians only insult christians" is old and tired, and everybody knows that as well. But thanks for filling us in guys. It's mostly jilted christians and jilted intellectuals trying to deliver a coupe de grace that say shit like that(Oh I want to be a hero a knight in shining armor who protects people and shit, you've impressed everybody). The funny thing is that you're wrong. Like i said, I consider myself a christian in many ways.

Also, how many christians(or again, people in general) who help do you think are doing it selfishly as some kind of martyrdom symptom (for example; the reason you guys are arguing this)? How many do you think do it for God's grace? How many do you think do it to actually make the world a better place for everyone and not just themselves or favored group. All people are afflicted with this type of bullshit, sorry for targetting your favorite(again, protecting your favorites and yourself). The fact that there's enough rich religious people in the world to help all the poor people pretty much outlines my point on how unreligious religion is.

I can't believe how often people argue common sense with, "Your numbers aren't correct". Just accept the fucking fact, put whatever number you want to in there with your administration powers, then reread my argument and continue this conversation in a useful fashion. Perhaps how this cultural corruption(that stems from all kinds of things, and all institutions, not just christianity) could be helped?
I don't know. Do something useful, not this defensive nancy girl shit you're playing. I don't enjoy your vagina monologues.

P.S. I was reading through this thread and realized i forgot to mention something: The political thing(and i mean this by government politics) i was talking about wasn't necessarily the dig, just a possible outcome based on the potential of weak willed people and what would happen if they were targetted with more politically viable thoughts. Whether or not they(the cults) had any personal feelings towards the government, they had an internal politic that was accepted like the dogmas of church. Furthermore, since the dogma of the church(which is a sort of politic) doesn't necessarily involve any kind of "Crazy ideas"(like maybe burning people at the stake for thinking the earth is round) it doesn't seem as zealous, however if more and more political views were inserted(not that there aren't any, still.. most of the views the church would take part in is morality, but that usually interferes, eventually, with politics since morality is essentially the foundation of politics; the strive for a moral law and world) then the weak willed people of limited political AND religious knowledge would be more likely to succomb to it as an inevitable crutch without any benefit of reasoning or logic because it is God's will. Hence, a necessary line that divides the manipulated with extremely manipulated and crazy.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Yea, well I did just talk about "Accepting problems" didn't i? That's what i was talking about, people who know they live in sin but do nothing productive to help it. "Oh, hey, I sin, I'll repent and pray, god will forgive me and i won't have to do anything". I think repentance might have a little to do with the progressive act of trying to make yourself a better person.

God forgives and judges. If a person sins and doesn't ask to be forgiven, it may be unchristianly, but it doesn't necessarily make them bad or faux Christians.

It's rare that you would ever hear one of these "hypocritical" Christians saying they are without sin, btw. in fact, they'll probably tell you 100 times that they're sinners "just like you" if you let them.

While alot may try, not many actually attain any useful state. I never said that was a damnable sinful bad thing(unless to note their own beliefs), but I didn't say it was a good thing either. Quit playing the, "We christians are insulted all the time but we're not all bad" card, it's so lame. Nobody fucking cares, I was discussing this from a culturally relevant angle.

I think then you should at least try to be "relevant." Talking in these big generalizations with no factual backing makes you sound foolish. You sound like the guy who watches the 700 Club one night and decides that all Christians are evil Republicans.

BTW, the "hey guys, I'm actually a Christian too" argument is also pretty lame. I don't care if you're an atheist or an evangelical, if you're not making a real point I'm going to call you out on it.

The catch is that religion is supposed to help people get better. How successful is it? How many does it make bad? How many hate Gays and blacks?

WHERE is this written? Where is it written that religion as a cultural institution is supposed to help everybody? Are we talking to a jew, a muslim, or a Christian?

We're talking about Christianity, so let's stick with Christianity. It pains me as a Roman Catholic to say this, but Church's, structures, and people are not the first resource for anybody. GOD is. If you want to get better, you look to God. If you want to be Christ-like, you read the Bible, and you do as it says. You're focusing far too much on religion as a cultural pacifier, which is a lame sociological thought dug up from the letters of the founding fathers.

To some, if five Christians get together in a room that's your church. To others, it's St. Patrick's Cathedral. What obligation do either of those entities have to society, OTHER than what's written in the Bible and spoken by God?

Also, how many christians(or again, people in general) who help do you think are doing it selfishly as some kind of martyrdom symptom (for example; the reason you guys are arguing this)?

Alright, you are becoming a bit of a goof ball. Please remind me one more time that you consider yourself a Christian, I need to see it again so that i remember you're actually making a point.

WHO CARES IF PEOPLE DO GOOD THINGS FOR SELFISH REASONS!? We ALL do good and altruistic things that are pleasing to us in some PERSONAL way, so who cares?

that there's enough rich religious people in the world to help all the poor people pretty much outlines my point on how unreligious religion is.

What is the point here? Huh??? I need to start seeing some Bible citations, otherwise I'm going to dismiss this as rambling.

Do something useful, not this defensive nancy girl shit you're playing. I don't enjoy your vagina monologues.

Seriously, you're close to getting your own sticky thread right under Vince's.

[kahljorn]

You know the vagina monologue part was funny.

I don't really feel I have to show that alot of christians are fucked up. You've already conceeded it multiple times. Why do I need to argue it? "Everybody's a sinner" hurray! Now all you need is the stretch to, "alot of people don't even try". Is repentance truly deserving by someone who asks for it from God on their death bed because they are afraid of dying(see:going to hell), but they've been sinful murderous bastards their entire life? The church can pretend like they can give that, but on any decent human being the pain of that sin would be outrageous. Personally, if I lived a life of bullshit I couldn't honestly see myself allowing myself into heaven. But that's just me, and i have standards for myself. Thank God there's people like you to save everyone.
If i remember right this thread was about religion in general, but we can quote some stupid bible verses, but I know your response will be, "That's just y our perception".

We'll start it out with a beaut:
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The verses after that are good too.

Acts 4:12 ( a verse basically saying you can't reach heaven without jesus: kind of similar to what i said, huh? You can't reach heaven without becoming christ-like, and having Christ's intentions in your heart. there's the old popular "way the truth and the light" thing too that would support this)
1 Cori. 15:22-24 (verse 2 is also good, especially.. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain) Maybe you should just read the chapter, or hell, read the bible?
Timothy 6:12 (read the whole chapter, if you will, i enjoy it)

Eph. 3:7 : Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. That's KJV, I like that one because it really expresses what I'm trying to express.

1 Kings 3:11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. I hope you enjoy that one.
While you're in romans, read romans two(chapter two, also try verse 5-6 of chapter one). All that wrath of God for judgement might seem a bit ironic.

2 Cor. 5:13-21 I especially like: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
To me the previous verse sort of expresses that when you are truly following the teachings of christ, you change. There was another chapter that i posted above where coming to christ initiates change. Most christians don't change except in an arbitrary way.

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repents of his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle.

Revelations 2 is good especially if you understand the symbolism.

I also reccomend a few books that aren't in the bible, namely the story of Ezekiel, including ezekiel 2 and 3. You might also want to consider investing some time in the study of Elisha.


I guess in the end it still comes down to if you think lazy people are truly following God. I know plenty of christians, tons actually, so don't try to tell me that they are all absolute reflections of Jesus Christ because I've seen the way they use his name(even alot of the good christians are poor representations of chrisianity). But then, maybe things here are different than wherever you are from. I do live in california.
Do you think repetence is hollow apologies? "Hey God, I'm sorry for stealing that candy, I'll never do it again don't send me to hell please" then going out the next day and doing it again? No. Repetance is PROGRESSIVE, it's a constant thing. Want the dictionary definition? "Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin". How many places in the bible does it say that you can't go to heaven unless you repent your evil ways? Tons, I won't even bother to quote them. So, essentially, simple apologizing means nothing. It is an actual progressive state where you try to improve yourself constantly. And it doesn't mean improve yourself by buying a bigger house and car, it means to improve yourself as a human being. Somehow most christians don't catch onto that, which is clearly elucidated by your ignorances.
You don't even know the definition of repentance

A few more things in response to your direct quaries:
"If a person sins and doesn't ask to be forgiven, it may be unchristianly, but it doesn't necessarily make them bad or faux Christians. "

I think what you mean is that it doesn't make them a bad person, but it does make them a bad christian. If being christian is the following of christ, than whenever you don't follow him you're being a BAD CHRISTIAN. You're SINNING that's BAD(this is how language generally works, especially adjectives in case you didn't know). Now what would be good would be "Repenting" and accepting that you were bad and attempting to change it(Remorse and contrition?). No, wait, we'll pretend like it was okay and continue with our lives.

"they'll probably tell you 100 times that they're sinners "just like you" if you let them. "

Conceeding you sin means absolutely nothing, and the fact that you assume it does makes you a fucking moron. The idea that everyone has sin is something commonly preached by the church's, believing in a dogma isn't spectacular, kevin. And what does admitting you have a problem solve? That's the FIRST step in aa, there's 12.

"I think then you should at least try to be "relevant." Talking in these big generalizations with no factual backing makes you sound foolish."

No factual backing? Excuse me. I forgot that the world is a perfect place full of loving christians the world is great hey you know what I have a closet full of puppies and no matter how many i take out there's still some there. Are you saying that every christian is an exact representation of christ? If not, then shut the fuck up. Are you saying that a large amount of christians is an exact representation of christ? If not, shut the fuck up.
You can talk all big and bad about generalizations like you never do it, "Republicans!" "BUSH!" "Democrats" "We" "Chrisians". You do it as much as anyone else, and it's done because it can be. Keep pretending like you've never generalized, though, and then argue that because I'm generalizing my argument is flawed, but the fact of the matter is that not many people are perfected images of christ. Do you want to argue that? If not, than accept my generalization and knock it off with your gradeschool debating.

"if you're not making a real point I'm going to call you out on it."

Good job doing that. Really, I applaud your Heroic deeds.

"WHERE is this written? Where is it written that religion as a cultural institution is supposed to help everybody?"

You're right, the church on a whole is supposed to damn everybody and not help people find God. Touche, salesman.
Which begs the question, what is the purpose in finding God? What happens when you find him? What religion doesn't teach this? Hindu does. Buddhism does. Christianity does. That's just shit they naturally do, this isn't a matter of what it's supposed to do it's a matter of what it does; the inherent function of religion is to help people, or guide them at the very least... but you don't often hear of religion's purpose to guide you into DAMNATION but to guide you into HEAVEN or BLISS. For some reason I have this strange understanding that guiding someone to bliss or heaven is a helpful thing. But god, I'm so stupid!!!@@!@!@!@
Think of everything I say like this: If God set religion on this planet, to what end?

"You're focusing far too much on religion as a cultural pacifier, which is a lame sociological thought dug up from the letters of the founding fathers. "

As human beings, what else could we consider it as? What angle do you take this conversation from, exactly, flushed debris from a toilet, or as a human being? Also, I'm not treating it as a pacifier, I'm treating it as an enhancer(though it seems others treat it as a pacifier). I don't understand how anyone can have a conversation about Politics or even Religion without considering cultural relevancy. But you know what, politics and culture have nothing to do with eachother; and religion wasn't founded by a conglomeration of people coming together to create stuff which could be called culture. Again, touche salesman.(religion is a result of culturization).

"What obligation do either of those entities have to society, OTHER than what's written in the Bible and spoken by God? "

None, I suppose. Just the fact that they are human beings living in the society. They really have no obligation, per se, but it's not exactly like they have a choice in the matter(you can prove me wrong on this topic by changing your species). Whether or not you like it, you're a part of this society, and everything you do reflects upon it.
My conversation never fully rested on obligation, in fact I never mentioned it at all. However, morally and ethically, we have a responsibility and an obligation-- but obligations can always be ignored. If you want to be a decent person, though, you will take that responsibility. Without it you get corrupt politicians and corrupt people, considering the consequences your actions might have is not a bad thing. Whoever taught you that was a fucking moron.
Please though, argue that foresight is a worthless trait for a person to have. In fact, continue to argue with me that trying to be good human being is a bad thing. Idiot.

"What is the point here? Huh??? I need to start seeing some Bible citations, otherwise I'm going to dismiss this as rambling. "

I believe i posted a chapter above that contained information about the rich not being rich of heart, and that they should lavish humanity with gifts... however, here's a few more: Psalm 37:16, psalm 52:7, psalm 62:10.. here's a popular one, kevin: Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23(mark has tons of versus about it), luke 8:14(so does luke).. there's plenty more. The one I mentioned previously is a great one, and I like it. It was one of the versus I mentioned before, unless I deleted it. Look them up. There's another one about the poor not giving less, as well.
I think you took this statement wrong, I was showing how various sub-cultures all disobey their religion and I found rich people to be an easy representation of this idea.

On my end note: Gal. 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. That's the NIV version because it is prettier and easier to understand.. you can always check the KJV version if you like, though

I hope you enjoyed all that, and I should have you know I'm still tired because i didn't get a full nights rest, sorry if parts are hard to understand. Good day.

[ziggytrix]

good grief

[kahljorn]

That was my secret strategy. It's so long no one will read it, but then, your team asked for it.

[ziggytrix]

my team?

[kahljorn]

I was being a defensive jerk, clearly.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

I don't really feel I have to show that alot of christians are fucked up. You've already conceeded it multiple times. Why do I need to argue it? "Everybody's a sinner" hurray! Now all you need is the stretch to, "alot of people don't even try". Is repentance truly deserving by someone who asks for it from God on their death bed because they are afraid of dying(see:going to hell), but they've been sinful murderous bastards their entire life?

Who knows whether or not these people have truly been sinful? YOU?

Do you truly believe that Christians should be perfect people? I know you can try to fracture together some things written by Paul to assert that claim, but do you truly believe that?

Personally, if I lived a life of bullshit I couldn't honestly see myself allowing myself into heaven. But that's just me, and i have standards for myself. Thank God there's people like you to save everyone.

No, thank God that GOD decides who has sinned and who hasn't, as well as who shall be forgiven and not forgiven, rather than some pissant on the internet.

This aspect of Christianity still seems very hard for you to grasp.

If i remember right this thread was about religion in general,

Originally Posted by kahljorn

When was the last time you saw Christianity as the mass religion it is dolling out help to mankind? What percentage of christianity do you think is christ like?

We'll start it out with a beaut:
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Does this imply to you that people who sin will not go to Heaven?

Maybe you should just read the chapter, or hell, read the bible?

Or better yet, maybe i should google a bunch of passages from a random assortment of testaments that I feel will substantiate my point. I mean, they really don't, because of my lack of an actual, viable point. But hey, all I need to do is throw them in there and make my post "so long no one will read it"

Eph. 3:7 : Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. That's KJV, I like that one because it really expresses what I'm trying to express.

WHAT!!? WHAT THE HELL DOES IT EXPRESS!!???

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. I hope you enjoy that one.

Not nearly as much as i'm enjoying this post, but it came close. Once again, how does this reinforce your point? What, Kahl, IS your point?

The point I have taken away from this is that most Christians lie, most Christians are selfish, and most Christians don't really mean it when they say they're sorry (which is the REAL irony in you posting this scripture).

I'll ask you again-- Does God expect that Christians will never sin? Answer that in 5 or less sentences.

All the wrath of God stuff is quite real, and in fact Christ mentions hell far more often than it gets mentioned in the OT. That being said, Christ offered himself up as a sacrifice for us, so that we may be saved for our sins.

Let's review, Kahl. Maybe you can google a scripture to support you on this: Who determines and either condemns or forgives one's sins?

To me the previous verse sort of expresses that when you are truly following the teachings of christ, you change. There was another chapter that i posted above where coming to christ initiates change. Most christians don't change except in an arbitrary way.

You're amazing.

I also reccomend a few books that aren't in the bible, namely the story of Ezekiel, including ezekiel 2 and 3. You might also want to consider investing some time in the study of Elisha.

I'll just let that stand on its own in bold.

I guess in the end it still comes down to if you think lazy people are truly following God. I know plenty of christians, tons actually, so don't try to tell me that they are all absolute reflections of Jesus Christ because I've seen the way they use his name(even alot of the good christians are poor representations of chrisianity).

Have you decided that those people aren't good Christians? Now who's job is that, Kahl?

A few more things in response to your direct quaries:
"If a person sins and doesn't ask to be forgiven, it may be unchristianly, but it doesn't necessarily make them bad or faux Christians. "

I think what you mean is that it doesn't make them a bad person, but it does make them a bad christian. If being christian is the following of christ, than whenever you don't follow him you're being a BAD CHRISTIAN. You're SINNING that's BAD(this is how language generally works, especially adjectives in case you didn't know). Now what would be good would be "Repenting" and accepting that you were bad and attempting to change it(Remorse and contrition?). No, wait, we'll pretend like it was okay and continue with our lives.

Who forgives, Kahl???

You can talk all big and bad about generalizations like you never do it, "Republicans!" "BUSH!" "Democrats" "We" "Chrisians". You do it as much as anyone else, and it's done because it can be. Keep pretending like you've never generalized, though, and then argue that because I'm generalizing my argument is flawed, but the fact of the matter is that not many people are perfected images of christ. Do you want to argue that? If not, than accept my generalization and knock it off with your gradeschool debating.

Who can be a perfected image of Christ, Kahl? 20 points.

And there's a difference between generalizations in politics and in spirituality. If I say "African-American males in DC are inclined to vote Democratic," there's hard data to support me on that. You seem to be arguing more so off of perception, and in doing that you are playing judge, jury, and executioner of every Christian on Earth.

I believe i posted a chapter above that contained information about the rich not being rich of heart, and that they should lavish humanity with gifts... however, here's a few more: Psalm 37:16, psalm 52:7, psalm 62:10.. here's a popular one, kevin: Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23(mark has tons of versus about it), luke 8:14(so does luke).. there's plenty more. The one I mentioned previously is a great one, and I like it.

What about Matthew 25: 14-30? Do your 10 scriptures smash my 1? I don't think it truly matters, because I don't think anything you've posted helps you articulate your point.

Maybe you should get some sleep. Asshole.

[kahljorn]

"Who knows whether or not these people have truly been sinful? YOU?"

Didn't you, in one of your previous posts, say christians admit they and everyone are sinful? Jesus.

"Do you truly believe that Christians should be perfect people?"

No, I don't believe that at all, and in all honesty I doubt that it could be accomplished. However, I do believe at least a strive for your full potential isn't something to complain about. Do you? Do you like wasted potential? "What about Matthew 25:14-30? " :Lol jackass. Remember, he's slothful because he does not use his talents out of fear.

"No, thank God that GOD decides who has sinned and who hasn't, as well as who shall be forgiven and not forgiven"

Everybody sinned, remember? We've been living on adams sin since he sinned, duh
This was distinctly about myself, and my own standards. Hence the usage of the word PERSONALLY before hand. I think that type of judgement comes from within, anyway. How could God be satisfied with you if you're not satisfied with yourself? I think it's a noble trait to have. I'm still not satisfied with myself, however, i think the state at which we receive god's grace or whatever is when we've attained some form of satisfaction. How do you gain that, though? I think that may apply.

"Does this imply to you that people who sin will not go to Heaven? "

Nope.

"WHAT!!? WHAT THE HELL DOES IT EXPRESS!!??? "

That the grace of God comes through attempting to make yourself a better person, like christ, who's personality and lifestyle are at least on a path that attempts to avoid sin(This can be HARD), rather than just floating along doing whatever, actually THINKING ABOUT IT, and attempting to change. Try that, for once. Remember, repentence means Seeking CONTRITION.

"Does God expect that Christians will never sin?"

No, but does he expect that they will try not to?
That's one sentance.


"You're amazing."

Definition of Arbitrary: Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.

"I'll just let that stand on its own in bold. "

And oh how my ego shakes in it's torrent.

"Have you decided that those people aren't good Christians? Now who's job is that, Kahl?"

Who's job? I don't know, the pope or something? I've heard of people being excommunicated from the church before, doesn't that mean they don't get their last rights so they can't go to heaven? It's plain to my eyes that they aren't good christians if they aren't at least trying not to sin. Again, that's what REPENTANCE is. And again, I know ALOT OF THEM try, at the very least, which I think is noble enough not to deserve hell. But does it deserve heaven?

"Who forgives, Kahl???"

Keep saying this, but despite all that, I'm condemning no one. Rather, I'm merely expressing the guidelines God himself expressed in his Holy God's Word as to what he needs to forgive someone. Forgiveness is more self-forgiveness, again, how could God forgive you if you can't forgive yourself? Ever notice how some people self-perpetuate themselves into bad situations? Self-perpetuate themselves into sin and more sin?
How can god forgive you if you don't honestly ask for forgiveness? Wanting forgiveness means you DIDNT WANT TO DO IT and you WONT DO IT AGAIN which demands, inherently, some kind of CHANGE.

"Who can be a perfected image of Christ, Kahl?"

Christ, ezekial, Isiah, Esther.. um.. Osiris, balder... I don't expect every human being to be jesus christ, but to at least try. Who knows, then it may become possible to become jesus christ if enough people tried to be decent.

"And there's a difference between generalizations in politics and in spirituality. If I say "African-American males in DC are inclined to vote Democratic," there's hard data to support me on that."

"People who believe in christianity are more likely to be hypocrites" "people who believe in christianity are more likely to not live to their own standards"
"People who believe in christianity are more likely to feel that everything they do is okay because they have God's forgiveness"
lol, hey, as long as we have god's forgiveness in the end let's go kill some people with that in mind God will love us for that.

"What about Matthew 25: 14-30? "

That's a story about using what's given to you if I remember right. That fits into exactly my point: "People, especially christians, are incredibly likely" to not even TRY to be christ-like(except at arbitrary points). If you used your abilities as a human being, like reasoning and rationality, eventually you could decipher what's right and wrong, and try to make yourself adhere to them. THAT is being Christ-like, and that is what i have been talking about all this time.
The fact that every once in a while even bad people try to be good means nothing. There's more I could say, but i need to start cooking lunch.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Didn't you, in one of your previous posts, say christians admit they and everyone are sinful? Jesus.

Yes, but it was in response to this "hypocricy" nonsense that gets thrown around.

However, I do believe at least a strive for your full potential isn't something to complain about. Do you?

I'm not saying people shouldn't strive for it. I'm also not saying that people can be bad Christians. I am however saying that it isn't my job, nor is it yours, to pass that judgement.

If you want to rip on people who do contradict the word of God and then go and judge others, I'm all for it. Pointing out hypocricy isn't a bad thing. Saying that "most" Christians are bad Christians because they mess up sometimes is a whole other thing, and it's wrong.

"WHAT!!? WHAT THE HELL DOES IT EXPRESS!!??? "

That the grace of God comes through attempting to make yourself a better person, like christ, who's personality and lifestyle are at least on a path that attempts to avoid sin(This can be HARD), rather than just floating along doing whatever, actually THINKING ABOUT IT, and attempting to change. Try that, for once. Remember, repentence means Seeking CONTRITION.

Something you are terribly unqualified to assess. Again-- how do you TRULY know that people who contradict God, or who sin and then ask for forgiveness, are doing so in an "arbitrary" fashion? Who are you, the sinner, to make that judgement?

It's plain to my eyes that they aren't good christians if they aren't at least trying not to sin. Again, that's what REPENTANCE is. And again, I know ALOT OF THEM try, at the very least, which I think is noble enough not to deserve hell. But does it deserve heaven?

John 8:7?

How can god forgive you if you don't honestly ask for forgiveness? Wanting forgiveness means you DIDNT WANT TO DO IT and you WONT DO IT AGAIN which demands, inherently, some kind of CHANGE.

And what has helped yu determind that a majority of Christians don't do this? I think this is what I'm truly tryingto get at.

"Who can be a perfected image of Christ, Kahl?"

Christ, ezekial, Isiah, Esther.. um.. Osiris, balder... I don't expect every human being to be jesus christ, but to at least try. Who knows, then it may become possible to become jesus christ if enough people tried to be decent.

none of them were Christ, but anyway....

I think you are right about the pursuit of Christ-like behavior. You are wrong however about the way "most" Christians fail to meet that challenge.

"People who believe in christianity are more likely to be hypocrites" "people who believe in christianity are more likely to not live to their own standards"
"People who believe in christianity are more likely to feel that everything they do is okay because they have God's forgiveness"
lol, hey, as long as we have god's forgiveness in the end let's go kill some people with that in mind God will love us for that.

But what's your proof? My argument is that there is no bulk of good and bad Christians. There are Christians trying to follow the word of God, yet still failing to reach that goal every single day.

Your argument is that most are hypocrites and don't care. Both views are based off of personal experience and assumptions, but i think yours is a much tougher sell.

"What about Matthew 25: 14-30? "

That's a story about using what's given to you if I remember right.

Yes, it's a parable about using your GOD GIVEN talent in order to achieve. But the parable is appropriate because it also highlights the absurdity in looking at a wealthy person today and saying that they are by default going to hell.

Some Christians have used this very story to argue that God wants you to work hard and do well in life. After all, if you were really smart and did really well in life and made lots of money, it's all because of God, isn't it? How could he then send you to hell for that?

I know the wealthy weren't the focus of your point, but they seem like the most likely example, because I think every bad Christian to you is an old, white man living in Georgia somewhere.

The fact that every once in a while even bad people try to be good means nothing.

God set the standards for us to follow, not to use against each other. This is often the problem with the Jerry Falwell types, and it's the problem with what you're saying right now.

The reason Conservatives go after gays is not because they want those gays to know they're going to hell.....they've already heardthat a million times. It's because if society accepts it, then you create a culture of sin, one that becomes pervasive throughout everything......dare I say Sodom & Gomorrah? They don't see themselves as violating the word of God, because they're trying to create a supposedly more Christian environment.

Right now, i don't see you as being very different from the hypocrites you're ranting on about.