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theapportioner theapportioner is offline
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Old Sep 11th, 2003, 06:40 PM        Wesley Clark
Thoughts on this guy? I don't know much about him, but on paper he looks like a very strong candidate.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Sep 11th, 2003, 07:12 PM       
I don't believe so. . .Funny you should bring him up though. I would have guessed you'd be supporting Howard Dean. What compells you into Clark's corner of the ring?
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VinceZeb VinceZeb is offline
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Old Sep 11th, 2003, 07:34 PM       
He thinks we were founded on a progressive taxation system.

That is all you need to know about this man.
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 09:46 AM       
Wow. You're just so dumb. I mean, honest to God.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 04:23 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
I don't believe so. . .Funny you should bring him up though. I would have guessed you'd be supporting Howard Dean. What compells you into Clark's corner of the ring?
I don't think Spinster was throwing his support that way, he simply seemed interested in the General's candidacy.

I think it's interesting, his team will try to present him as an Eisenhower type of candidate, ie. semi-detached from the "DC Scene," a military hero, a leader, etc.

He clearly isn't Eisenhower as George Will aptly pointed out about a week or so ago, but I think he'll make the image work. Supposedly he has already had a meeting with Howard Dean, who would like him as a runningmate. I think Wesley will run for the office, but a Dean/Clark ticket would/could be interesting....

Oh, and Vince. Adam Smith, ya know, the liberal whig ideologue who guys like Jefferson admired, etc.....he believed in progressive taxation. The famous quote from him you'll find is "The subjects of every state ought to contribute toward the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state ....[As Henry Home (Lord Kames) has written, a goal of taxation should be to] 'remedy inequality of riches as much as possible, by relieving the poor and burdening the rich.'" Also, ya know that guy John Locke?? Yeah, he supported progressive taxation as well.

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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 06:32 PM       
The people that founded this country can support something but not instill it into the foundation of the country. It wasn't in the foundation of our country. Our country broke away because of taxes, if you remember your history. Hell, to put it in perspective, it would be like if we broke away from our country because the govt instilled a .60 tax on fast food.

They saw the evil of taxation before it built up. This country was not founded on a progressive tax system. That punishes hard work. A tax that EVERYONE pays that is the SAME does not punish achievement. It makes the burden equal for EVERYONE.
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 06:37 PM       
The revolution wasn't based upon the philosophy of whether or not taxes are good or bad, taxes are clearly necessary, and this was realized. The lack of representation in England, on top of the taxation, was ONE catalyst of the very complicated American Revolution (thankfully we have Vince here to sum it all up for us, however).
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 06:38 PM       
Good god. Please go away.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 07:07 PM       
I leave tomorrow to go East, so this may be my last post for a few months. I'm sure you'll all weep

"The people that founded this country can support something but not instill it into the foundation of the country. It wasn't in the foundation of our country."

Actually it was. Aside from the mutual regard of our Forefather, the US Supreme court has ruled that the Federalist Papers is to be accepted as the authoritve and definitive interpretation of the Supreme Law of the Land, and therein Madison declared a country which does not tax its citizenry is no more than a province. Taxation is something this country has accepted is as inevitable as government itself, and as little cared for.

"Our country broke away because of taxes, if you remember your history."

Taxation without representation actually, which amounts to little more than large scale piracy.

"Hell, to put it in perspective, it would be like if we broke away from our country because the govt instilled a .60 tax on fast food."

And this would be a perspective of insanity I take it? Or at least unreasonable extremism?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 07:11 PM       
Thank you, Ror.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 07:32 PM       
Anytime Sully. It was the least I could do
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Sep 12th, 2003, 10:32 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
...taxes are clearly necessary...
It isn't nearly as clear as you think, Kevegan. However, I won't challenge it, since I don't think it's very important. Nor do I necessarilly disagree with it.

However, find a hardcore anarcho-capitalist and this would be an intriguing debate. I'm sure it would come down to the "public goods" argument, but it would still be interesting.

Oh, and for those of you who don't know what the hell I'm talking about, you can read up on the anarcho-capitalist theory HERE, as well as some other anarchist theories.

Crazy christian anarchists...
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 01:31 AM       
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Crazy christian anarchists...
My cousin is one of those. I hate him.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 03:09 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
...taxes are clearly necessary...
It isn't nearly as clear as you think, Kevegan. However, I won't challenge it, since I don't think it's very important. Nor do I necessarilly disagree with it.

However, find a hardcore anarcho-capitalist and this would be an intriguing debate. I'm sure it would come down to the "public goods" argument, but it would still be interesting.
Anarchists tend to be, ummmm....what's the word? Oh yeah, stupid.
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 04:03 AM       
There are different forms of the traditional anarchist, some(most) are just stupid people pent up with the idea that they can't smoke bud in their mommy's house. Those kind of anarchists are irrelevant and their opinion should never hold any validity as an anarchist, or even as a person. Please do not let their perceptions sway you, my gentle, gentle kevin.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 09:48 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
Anarchists tend to be, ummmm....what's the word? Oh yeah, stupid.
Anarcho-capitalist intellect > communist intellect.

It's the idiotic left anarchists that piss me off. Assuming some kind of great change in the way humans think is like throwing caution to the wind.
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 11:34 AM       
What is an 'Anarcho-Capitalist'?

The two words seem to cancel each other out.

I've never heard of Christian Anarchists either, was that serious?
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 01:25 PM       
Anarcho-capitalists, to my recollection, are essentially radical capitalists, like Libertarians on steroids (note: It's funny, when my whacko Anarchist friends like to blabber on about how we don't need government programs, cuz well, "what did we do "in nature" before the programs????" I remind them that some conservative/libertarian economists said the very same thing on Town Hall.com the week previous. ).

Christian Anarchists: Heard of them, know little of them.

EDIT: BTW, One and only, is that a pic of Milton Friedman you have for your avatar?? If so, that's kind of funny. Back on the old ezboard, I used to post as this sensationalized character called Conservative Bob. He had a Friedman avatar as well. I figured the guy who loved Pinochet was an apt choice.
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 01:44 PM       
Jeez, to lazy to read my link?

"So-called "minarchist" libertarians such as Nozick have argued that the largest justified government was one which was limited to the protection of individuals and their private property against physical invasion; accordingly, they favor a government limited to supplying police, courts, a legal code, and national defense. This normative theory is closely linked to laissez-faire economic theory, according to which private property and unregulated competition generally lead to both an efficient allocation of resources and (more importantly) a high rate of economic progress. While left-anarchists are often hostile to "bourgeois economics," anarcho-capitalists hold classical economists such as Adam Smith, David Hume, and Jean-Baptiste Say in high regard, as well as more modern economists such as Joseph Schumpeter, Ludwig von Mises, F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, George Stigler, and James Buchanan. The problem with free-market economists, say the anarcho-capitalists, is not that they defend the free market, but merely that their defense is too moderate and compromising.

Now the anarcho-capitalist essentially turns the minarchist's own logic against him, and asks why the remaining functions of the state could not be turned over to the free market. And so, the anarcho-capitalist imagines that police services could be sold by freely competitive firms; that a court system would emerge to peacefully arbitrate disputes between firms; and that a sensible legal code could be developed through custom, precedent, and contract. And in fact, notes the anarcho-capitalist, a great deal of modern law (such as the Anglo-American common law) originated not in legislatures, but from the decentralized rulings of judges. (The anarcho-capitalist shares Kropotkin's interest in customary law, but normally believes that it requires extensive modernization and articulation.)

The anarcho-capitalist typically hails modern society's increasing reliance on private security guards, gated communities, arbitration and mediation, and other demonstrations of the free market's ability to supply the defensive and legal services normally assumed to be of necessity a government monopoly. In his ideal society, these market alternatives to government services would take over all legitimate security services. One plausible market structure would involve individuals subscribing to one of a large number of competing police services; these police services would then set up contracts or networks for peacefully handling disputes between members of each others' agencies. Alternately, police services might be "bundled" with housing services, just as landlords often bundle water and power with rental housing, and gardening and security are today provided to residents in gated communities and apartment complexes.

The underlying idea is that contrary to popular belief, private police would have strong incentives to be peaceful and respect individual rights. For first of all, failure to peacefully arbitrate will yield to jointly destructive warfare, which will be bad for profits. Second, firms will want to develop long- term business relationships, and hence be willing to negotiate in good faith to insure their long-term profitability. And third, aggressive firms would be likely to attract only high-risk clients and thus suffer from extraordinarily high costs (a problem parallel to the well-known "adverse selection problem" in e.g. medical insurance -- the problem being that high-risk people are especially likely to seek insurance, which drives up the price when riskiness is hard for the insurer to discern or if regulation requires a uniform price regardless of risk). Anarcho-capitalists generally give little credence to the view that their "private police agencies" would be equivalent to today's Mafia -- the cost advantages of open, legitimate business would make "criminal police" uncompetitive. As David Friedman explains in The Machinery of Freedom, "Perhaps the best way to see why anarcho-capitalism would be so much more peaceful than our present system is by analogy. Consider our world as it would be if the cost of moving from one country to another were zero. Everyone lives in a housetrailer and speaks the same language. One day, the president of France announces that because of troubles with neighboring countries, new military taxes are being levied and conscription will begin shortly. The next morning the president of France finds himself ruling a peaceful but empty landscape, the population having been reduced to himself, three generals, and twenty-seven war correspondents."

(Moreover, anarcho-capitalists argue, the Mafia can only thrive in the artificial market niche created by the prohibition of alcohol, drugs, prostitution, gambling, and other victimless crimes. Mafia gangs might kill each other over turf, but liquor-store owners generally do not.)

Unlike some left-anarchists, the anarcho-capitalist has no objection to punishing criminals; and he finds the former's claim that punishment does not deter crime to be the height of naivete. Traditional punishment might be meted out after a conviction by a neutral arbitrator; or a system of monetary restitution (probably in conjunction with a prison factory system) might exist instead. A convicted criminal would owe his victim compensation, and would be forced to work until he paid off his debt. Overall, anarcho-capitalists probably lean more towards the restitutionalist rather than the pure retributivist position.

Probably the main division between the anarcho-capitalists stems from the apparent differences between Rothbard's natural-law anarchism, and David Friedman's more economistic approach. Rothbard puts more emphasis on the need for a generally recognized libertarian legal code (which he thinks could be developed fairly easily by purification of the Anglo-American common law), whereas Friedman focuses more intently on the possibility of plural legal systems co-existing and responding to the consumer demands of different elements of the population. The difference, however, is probably over-stated. Rothbard believes that it is legitimate for consumer demand to determine the philosophically neutral content of the law, such as legal procedure, as well as technical issues of property right definition such as water law, mining law, etc. And Friedman admits that "focal points" including prevalent norms are likely to circumscribe and somewhat standardize the menu of available legal codes.

Critics of anarcho-capitalism sometimes assume that communal or worker-owned firms would be penalized or prohibited in an anarcho-capitalist society. It would be more accurate to state that while individuals would be free to voluntarily form communitarian organizations, the anarcho- capitalist simply doubts that they would be widespread or prevalent. However, in theory an "anarcho-capitalist" society might be filled with nothing but communes or worker- owned firms, so long as these associations were formed voluntarily (i.e., individuals joined voluntarily and capital was obtained with the consent of the owners) and individuals retained the right to exit and set up corporations or other profit-making, individualistic firms.

On other issues, the anarcho-capitalist differs little if at all from the more moderate libertarian. Services should be privatized and opened to free competition; regulation of personal AND economic behavior should be done away with. Poverty would be handled by work and responsibility for those able to care for themselves, and voluntary charity for those who cannot. (Libertarians hasten to add that a deregulated economy would greatly increase the economic opportunities of the poor, and elimination of taxation would lead to a large increase in charitable giving.)"
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 01:47 PM       
Yeah, well nobody reads my copy and paste jobs, either. :/

OAO: look at my previous post, question.
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The One and Only... The One and Only... is offline
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 01:59 PM       
I'm sure you've heard of Murray Rothbard.

Edit: Damn, you said Milton, not David: I'll have to change this post now...
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Old Sep 13th, 2003, 02:24 PM       
Quote:
Jeez, to lazy to read my link?
Terribly sorry. I didn't even see it.
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