BUSH TOURS GULF STATES

[mburbank]

From an AP story, interspersed with questions I have



"The storm didn't discriminate and neither will the recovery effort," Bush said. "The rescue efforts were comprehensive. The recovery will be comprehensive."

So in the future, all citizens of the United States, regardless of race
can look forward to going days without food, water or shelter in the
event of a disaster?




Bush said Congress should consider whether the federal government should have more authority to step into disaster areas without a request from the states. "All of us want to learn lessons," he said.

Here's a lesson he can learn: The Governor of Lousianna DID
ask for the federal government to step in, as has been widely
reported by the press. It's shameful he keeps implying they did
not.


Bush rejected suggestions that the nation's military was stretched too thinly with the war in Iraq to deal with the Gulf Coast devastation. "We've got plenty of troops to do both," the president said. "It is preposterous to claim that the engagement in Iraq meant there weren't enough troops."

Why then have we hired Blackwater, a private security firm, to
patrol the streets of New Orleans?

"We're moving on, we're going to solve these problems," he said.

Bush also clarified his now-criticized remark that no one had anticipated the levees being breached. He said he was referring to that "sense of relaxation in a critical moment" when many people initially thought the storm had not inflicted heavy damage on the city.

Leaving aside that fact that's not at all what he said, AND even
if it were, still wrong; this is a Rove scripted fantasy. Over a two
day period I heard and read multiple Govt. flaks insist that 'all
the newspapers were saying New Orleans dodged a bullit'. I
challenge anyone to find a paper that said that. I challenge
anyone to find a paper or news source that even slightly implied
it. The closest anyone comes in saying that the Hurricane was
not as bad as it would have been had it remained a category five.
This is the same strategy the used to make people believe Sadaam
and Bin laden worked together. Repeat, repeat, repeat, and
eventually people will believe you. It's despicable.

[Skulhedface]

It's too bad Hurricane Katrina had to hit during his second term.

Odds are relief efforts would've been MUCH more swift had this been an election year.

It's so nice of him to tour the Gulf two whole weeks afterwards! And his passing of the buck on federal aid and responsibility? Brilliant master strategy, I'd say.

I suppose Georgey will shed a tear over how many golf courses Louisiana lost. For shame...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Bush rejected suggestions that the nation's military was stretched too thinly with the war in Iraq to deal with the Gulf Coast devastation. "We've got plenty of troops to do both," the president said. "It is preposterous to claim that the engagement in Iraq meant there weren't enough troops."

Why then have we hired Blackwater, a private security firm, to
patrol the streets of New Orleans?

That's an interesting question, because from what I had heard, only a collective 1/3 of Louisiana and Mississippi's active-duty guardsmen are in Iraq. Those numbers may be wrong.

The Sunday Washington Post had a very good, comprehensive, day-by-day account of the Katrina mess. One thing I took away from it was that more than simply bodies taken away in Iraq were the problem. Other things, like satellite radios for example, were of issue. Apparently Louisiana only has two, one of which is in Iraq. This made multiple-tracking of the storm's strength and landing time a little more difficult.

[mburbank]

A lot of their high water vehicles are in Iraq as well. I suppose it's just ignorance on my part, but why do you need high water vehicles in Iraq?

[Abcdxxxx]

Mhm...Blackwater....BLACKwater....BlackWATER....BL ACK.... WATER....


No but really, Bush was riding on a the back of a truck through the mean streets of New Orleans without any secret service.... after he arrived using 5 decoy helicopters. Is some consistancy too much to ask for?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Mission Accomplished."

[mburbank]

NEW ORLEANS (CNN) -- President Bush said Monday that when he told the country, two days after Hurricane Katrina crashed ashore, that no one had anticipated the breach of levees in New Orleans, that wasn't what he meant.

Bush said he wanted to "clarify" the remark he made in an interview with ABC -- an inaccurate statement that added to blistering criticism against the president.

"When that storm came by, a lot of people said we dodged a bullet. When that storm came through at first, people said, 'Whew.' There was a sense of relaxation. And that's what I was referring to," Bush told reporters in New Orleans Monday. "Of course, there were plans in case the levee had been breached. There was a sense of relaxation at a critical moment."

That was not what Bush told ABC on August 31. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached. And as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will," he said.





Okay, can anyone find me a single news or scientiffic opinion anywhere that comes close to saying NO 'dodged a bullet' or that the reaction was 'whew' when the actual body of the storm had passed? Who, exactly, experienced this 'sense of relaxation'? I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying I totally missed anything like it and in searching the internet have been unable to find any material from the immediatte aftermath saying any such thing.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I believe a lot of news outlets commented on how the severity of the actual storm was less that had initially been expected.

[Abcdxxxx]

Monday evening reports were that New Orleans had survived, and that the reduced hurrican produced far less damage. The Mayor was being all congratulatory, and the Biloxi and part of Alamaba were more of a focus.....

Then if you flipped over to CNN around 8:3-9:00 they were describing an entirely different scene, with water coming out of nowhere, and the horror story we see now.

So there was a point where people were really saying "New Orleans dodged a bullet".

[mburbank]

From the Wall Street Journal:

No major newspaper printed a headline that literally said New Orleans "dodged a bullet," as Mr. Chertoff claimed. But some did say the city had escaped a direct hit -- which was true, but misleading -- while others focused on the levees along the Mississippi River. Meanwhile, it was the levees along canals extending south from Lake Pontchartrain that gave way.


"But the city managed to avoid the worst of the worst," read a front-page Washington Post article on Tuesday. "The Mississippi River did not breach New Orleans's famed levees to any serious degree, at least in part because Katrina veered 15 miles eastward of its predicted track just before landfall."

But this is from the same article


A look at news reports of the events of Aug. 29 paints a picture of confusion, miscommunication and conflicting information among some government officials and news media. Several major news outlets, including Viacom Inc.'s CBS network and National Public Radio reported the breaking of the Industrial Canal and flooding on Monday, although not all of the reports acknowledged the extent of the devastation. The Wall Street Journal reported the Industrial Canal breach but no others.






The New Orleans office of the National Weather Service issued a flash flood warning at 8:14 a.m. Monday, saying "a levee breach occurred along the industrial canal at Tennessee Street. 3 to 8 feet of water is expected due to the breach."

Leonard Downie Jr., the Washington Post's executive editor, says the paper's reporting was hampered by communications problems caused by the hurricane. "Unfortunately, where our communication was good was where it wasn't flooding," he says. "All the media were hampered by the fact that people on the ground didn't know what happened."

In the 5 p.m. news report on News Corp.'s Fox News Channel, anchor Shepard Smith informed viewers of "late word" that the levees had held. But a few minutes later, in the same program, a public-health expert told the channel the exact opposite: "Well, the National Weather Service are reporting that one of the levees was breached. ... People have been forced out onto the roofs of their homes."

Why the confusion? A Fox News spokeswoman says Mr. Smith was referring to levees near his "physical location," which was Bourbon Street in the French Quarter -- that is, levees on the Mississippi.




While that's certainly confusing, for the President, the head of Homeland security and the head of Fema, all of whom have used that wretched made up 'dodged a bullet' phrase, to see it that way based on the information available at the time is an admission of failure. And for them to see their afilure as an excuse, 'oh, well, shucks, folks, eva one of us thought we'd dodged a bullit, so we ain't to blame. Now ain't the time for fingerpointin'. Side's, it was somebody elses job to take care of all this, and you gotta admit, the victims bear at least some of the responsability.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

That's an interesting question, because from what I had heard, only a collective 1/3 of Louisiana and Mississippi's active-duty guardsmen are in Iraq. Those numbers may be wrong.

One third in Iraq. One third on stand-by. One third participating in rescue efforts. Assuming that the state would have committed the same percentage of forces to rescue efforts (roughlly 50% of those remaining state-side) had the troops not been deployed to Iraq, you're still assuming approximately a 17% loss in manpower in addition to the loss of equipment that may have made things logistically easier.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

From whitehouse.gov, visiting a school in Mississippi, the President said "First of all, I want to thank the school principal for her hospitality. It's interesting, you know, she said she lost her school and lost her house, but I told her she hadn't lost her smile or her will to succeed."

Alright. Enough. Look, anybody who thinks I've turned into a conservative on this board can verify that I'm not really down with the Bush bashing. I like to play devil's advocate, and try to give the benefit of the doubt when avaialble.

But these cute, contrived, "real-folkisms" simply need to stop. No more of this. This reminds me of the time at a town hall meeting he told a woman working three jobs and raising kids "boy, there's somethin' really American about that, aint there?"

The president needs to get out of his insulated PR bubble and get his foot out of his ass. We need him to be louder right now, more of a leader, on the recovery issue, as well as iraq.

[mburbank]

Yeah, it amazes me he doesn't have any idea how that shit sounds, but look at his Mom. She said her thing about the underprivilidged to NPR, for God's sake. How tone deaf is that?

Mostly these comments are made in front of pretty carefully screened audiences, so you don't get people yelling in the background.

Did you see the tape of Chenney, where he's talking about how the response he's gotten from victimes has been %100 positive, and someone starts yelling at him "Hey, Dick Chenney! Go fuck yourself!". The reporter asks if he's been getting a lot of that, and Chenney says no, this is the first time.

Now do you think that's a gutless, deiberate lie, or do you think these folks are so protected from anything but praise they simply no longer know the world they live in?

I recall an interview with Reagan shortly after he left office on the subject of the Brady Bill. He said if he'd known any of the stuff he knew on the subject now that he was no longer president, he'd have supported it. Bush actualy makes it a point of pride that his knowledge of the world is utterly filtered through his staff.

PS. Kev, I'm aware that you are often trying to keep the conversation honest and strain some of the polemics out of it. I appreciatte that. Personally, though, I have become very leery of the benefit of the doubt. I think the tendency of the center left to give the benefit of the doubt has been exploited by the far right and the center right has remianed silent. I think the folks currently running the country count on and abuse the benefit of the doubt given to them by the American people and the press just as Strauss advised.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

But these cute, contrived, "real-folkisms" simply need to stop. No more of this. This reminds me of the time at a town hall meeting he told a woman working three jobs and raising kids "boy, there's somethin' really American about that, aint there?"

The president needs to get out of his insulated PR bubble and get his foot out of his ass. We need him to be louder right now, more of a leader, on the recovery issue, as well as iraq.

At the heart of it, I firmly don't believe it is a race issue at all to Bush. I think that he's been so far removed from the lower class (not only in political office but his whole life) that he simply does not know how to empathize with them and this comes off as uncaring. And I'm sure that the lower class is likewise unable to identify with him. This is something that is unfortunate but I honestly don't see this as something that can be resolved quickly it at all.

Historically, isn't hurricane relief something that the states preferred to take care of themselves until federal relief was absolutely necessary? True that this level of destruction is beyond normal, but wasn't FEMA, although unqualified, following the normal path in federal efforts? It seems that it took the enormity of this disaster to point of the flaws in state to federal communication as well as the failure in the state's own planning.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kellychaos

I think that he's been so far removed from the lower class (not only in political office but his whole life) that he simply does not know how to empathize with them and this comes off as uncaring. And I'm sure that the lower class is likewise unable to identify with him. This is something that is unfortunate but I honestly don't see this as something that can be resolved quickly it at all.

See, this is what gets me though. One thing it was said you could never take away from Bush was that he is great at apealing to Joe Sixpack. In political jargon, he works great in small groups. So explain to me what happened. Why is it that he just couldn't say the right things at the right time here..?

Historically, isn't hurricane relief something that the states preferred to take care of themselves until federal relief was absolutely necessary? True that this level of destruction is beyond normal, but wasn't FEMA, although unqualified, following the normal path in federal efforts? It seems that it took the enormity of this disaster to point of the flaws in state to federal communication as well as the failure in the state's own planning.

I think a lot of the timeline stuff for Katrina is still a bit jumbled, and unfortunately, has already been partisanized. I have heard reports that Bush twice asked Gov. Blanco to federal the situation, and take over. She says this never happened, and that she asked for more troops all along. The Bush team also had concerns over the image that might be conveyed if a Republican president came in and federalized a democratic state and a democratic city, what kind of PR nightmares that might entail, etc.

[mburbank]

I think this is a huge clusterfuck with no leader exclussively to blame.

The scope of this disaster (and I don't except anybodies excuse that 'they had no idea how big this was since it's been predicted for years and the real event, horrible as it was, wasn't as bad as some of the models. We've known for a very long time this scenario was when, not if) called for decisive leadership. No one took it. Everyone worried about turf and how they'd look later. In addition, communication problems, both technologic and polticial failed in many of the same ways they failed on 9/11 indicating a frightening lack of progress towards homeland security.

W is not solely to blame for how things went, but he's the boss, the CEO. He's the leader of the country, a 2 term president in his sceond term. He had the authority to federalize the situation, and he did not. In addition, W has not balked at doing several things during his presidency for which he lacked clear legal authority and has been prepared to defend them after the fact. His leadeship was tested and it failed. His administration gave away key FEMA appointemnts to friends with no experience (and by the way, now is the time to see where all the other unqualified people are leading departments, BEFORE they are tested.) Nagin also certainly failed, I don't know enough about the governor but that will also come out, and need I say that while the focus is on New Olreans, other states with Republican governors also had people waiting up to a week for rescue. Chertoff's leadership of Homeland is by definition without credability, since the homeland turns out to be nowhere close to secured. None of these failures diminishes W's failure. That's the price of leadership. His verbal acceptance of responsability acknowledges this, but it's only a first step, and in my opinion, while more thn I expected, the least he could do.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

This thread is NOT about race, it's about CLASS!

[mburbank]

I know, I totaslly screwed up. I have since editted my post.

[kellychaos]

A different tact ... or at least a factor in this:

What does this say about a "hands off" style of presidency that prefers to leave all but the most dire situations to those lower in his administration ... i.e. the bureaucracy. I mean, I can see the value of delegating authority and challenging subordinates but are their limits? Did this point out a weakness in this style of authority?

[Preechr]

I started responding after I read your first response.

I hope this turns out good...

Originally Posted by mburbank

So in the future, all citizens of the United States, regardless of race can look forward to going days without food, water or shelter in the event of a disaster?

You missed a comma and at what point did anyone's food, water and shelter become George W. Bush's responsibility? When you voted for Kerry were you seriously banking on him being the best guy for keeping you alive should you need mouth to mouth?

Originally Posted by mburbank

Here's a lesson he can learn: The Governor of Lousianna DID
ask for the federal government to step in, as has been widely
reported by the press. It's shameful he keeps implying they did
not.

SHE, not they, did not... at least not at first.

It's been widely documented and even admitted by her herself that Dubya asked her on Sunday if she'd declare an emergency and that she'd asked for 24 hours to mull over his offer the day his plane touched down.

Originally Posted by mburbank

Why then have we hired Blackwater, a private security firm, to
patrol the streets of New Orleans?

This is just the beginning of Baghdad redux.

Private contractors are simply (generally) retired soldiers and your objection to them is more a projection of your own problem with capitalism than anything related to your actual knowledge of them.

Originally Posted by mburbank

Leaving aside that fact that's not at all what he said, AND even
if it were, still wrong; this is a Rove scripted fantasy. Over a two
day period I heard and read multiple Govt. flaks insist that 'all
the newspapers were saying New Orleans dodged a bullit'. I
challenge anyone to find a paper that said that. I challenge
anyone to find a paper or news source that even slightly implied
it. The closest anyone comes in saying that the Hurricane was
not as bad as it would have been had it remained a category five.
This is the same strategy the used to make people believe Sadaam
and Bin laden worked together. Repeat, repeat, repeat, and
eventually people will believe you. It's despicable.

No, it's politics.

Unfortunately, political speech is never directed at you, me or Kevin... It's generally Vince that the president, no matter which one we're talking about, is talking to.

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

"Mission Accomplished."

bastard.

[Pub Lover]

Originally Posted by Preechr

Private contracors are simply...

Oh no! You misspelled a word!

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by mburbank

A look at news reports of the events of Aug. 29 paints a picture of confusion, miscommunication and conflicting information among some government officials and news media.

There's your "Liberal Media" right there.

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by Pub Lover

Oh no! You misspelled a word!

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Preechr

SHE, not they, did not... at least not at first.

It's been widely documented and even admitted by her herself that Dubya asked her on Sunday if she'd declare an emergency and that she'd asked for 24 hours to mull over his offer the day his plane touched down.

I've seen it "documented," which means I read in the paper, that twice the administration pushed for federalization, and she declined. She however disputes this, and says that she repeatedly asked for more troops.

I think the levels of blame shift as you move down a timeline. I think the hours prior to the hurricane, as well as the immediate aftermath, a lot of blame can be placed on the state and locals of Louisiana. However, it doesn't cut across the board that way. You can blame Nagin for a poor strategy in NO, but what about Jefferson Parish? THey did PRECISELY what they were told to do there in such a crisis, and they were left hangin' by the Feds.

Private contractors are simply (generally) retired soldiers and your objection to them is more a projection of your own problem with capitalism than anything related to your actual knowledge of them.

No, I don't think it's that at all. I don't think anybody doubts that private contracters are experienced and good at what they do.

A problem comes up when you have private professionals, although owning the skill sets to do the job, are lacking the public code of conduct carried by a soldier, officer, or whatever.

Also, and this is really my issue, if they are so lacking troops or cops down there, then they need to do something else. Allowing the rich to contract out and protect their homes, while the poor are forced to disarm, evacuate, and hope that their shit doesn't get stolen, is wrong.