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Zhukov Zhukov is offline
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Old Aug 16th, 2004, 11:56 AM        Venezuela has decided...
... No to a recall!

A crushing blow to the counterrevolution!

There were 4,991,483 "no votes ", representing 58.95 percent of those voting, against 3,576,517 "yes" votes, representing 41.74 percent (anounced on the 16th). Manual count of votes from rural districts and poor urban areas where Chavez has widespread support, and where automatic machines were not used, will increase the Presidents margin of victory!


The participation was around 90 percent. This voter turnout stands in contrast to the participation in elections in UK or the US. This is what happens when the people feel that they have something to vote for. It is what happens when people feel that politics really matter and that voting can make a difference.

This is the eighth electoral victory of Chavez and the Bolivarians in the last six years. Yet the opposition still describes him as a "dictator".

Defeated in every election, the opposition has tried to remove Chavez from power through a coup in 2002, followed by a management led shutdown of the state oil company PDVSA. When these attempts failed the opposition put all their weight behind the recall referendum to oust the democratically elected President before the end of his term.

This is rich! The constitutional right to a recall referendum only exists thanks to the new Constitution drafted during Hugo Chavezs first year in office, and approved by popular referendum. The recall of elected officials was an idea proposed by Chavez to the popular assembly, and it was supported by the majority and rejected by the opposition, which then hypocritically used that right to attempt to oust the President.

By the way, if these "democrats" had won the recall, the first thing they would have done is to abolish the right of recall referendum! Before the results both sides promised to accept the outcome, yet some opposition leaders have called for "civil rebellion".

So Chavez is staying, does this mean that everything is solved and that the opposition has been decisively defeated? No! The counterrevolutionaries will not stop their campaign against the Venezuelan revolution on the international plane, or drop their claims that that Chavez has authoritarian tendencies. With the aid of organizations like Sumate (The one who the US pays to help fake election results), they will publish fake exit polls that directly contradict the official results to show that the result was based on fraud. They will continue to sabotage and obstruct the progress of the revolution, attempting to cause economic and social chaos. They will never be satisfied until Chavez has been overthrown and the gains of the Bolivarian revolution completely destroyed.

The class war is intensifying all the time. The workers and peasants, encouraged by the result of the referendum, will demand more reforms and a deepening of the revolutionary process. The bourgeoisie and the imperialists will demand a halt and a reversal. There is no going back, fuckers!
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Old Aug 16th, 2004, 05:23 PM       
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. And what role the U.S. will try to play. I can't help but think Haiti.

Guerrilla News/Palast article on election:
http://www.guerrillanews.com/government/doc5075.html
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Old Aug 17th, 2004, 12:56 PM       
Why does everything have to be linked back to oil and the US?

I can't help thinking how unbelievably far away from Haiti this is. :/
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Old Aug 23rd, 2004, 03:13 PM       
Well, all I can say is this has been a colossal waste of good American tax money.
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 12:11 AM       
Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain to me how and why the United States is involved, and what Sumate is?
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 07:49 AM       
The US is involved because Venezuela has oil, & Chavaz is a 'ittle-bitty left leaning politically, & he has a slight dislike for Dubya.

Sumate, as the article suggests, is an organization that the US, through the CIA, pays to help fake election results. If the Venezuelan Opposition got into power, it wouldn't be surprising for US favourable trade deals to occur. Gotta grab that dollar!
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 09:56 AM       
The US is involved because it doesn't want to see another Cuba. The US will play the same cards it used in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Chile, Afghanistan...

While the US has alot to gain from a "democratic" (read: Capitalist) Venezuela, it is what it stands to lose that is more important. When Venezuela becomes Socialist it will be easier for other surrounding countries to follow, eg Bolivia.

Regarding US activities, in the run up to the referendum process there had been extremely harsh pressure on the part of US imperialism and the opposition to say that if the referendum was not called, then this meant Chavez was a dictator and measures would be taken (economic embargo and military intervention etc). The Carter Centre and the Organisation of American States, which were allegedly "observing" the voting process, were the frontmen. In reality they started interfering directly with the work of the National Electoral Council. It was made clear that a referendum was going to take place, even when the opposition couldn't find the 2.7mill votes required to make it happen.

In any case the opposition will not recognise the results of the referendum since it does not give them victory. They immediately started a new campaign of pressure and imperialist meddling, which will no doubt include threats, murder and all sorts of dirty tricks that have served them so well in the past.


I wouldn't say Chavez is a little left, I would say he is alot left.

Chavez has said that if US imperialism dares to interfere in Venezuelan politics and tries to remove the democratically elected government of the country, not one drop of Venezuelan oil would go to the United States. Venezuela exports about 1.5 mill barrels of oil daily to the US at the moment. He has also spoken about the possibility that the US may be tempted to carry out a military intervention. In such a case there would be "enough mountain, enough jungle, enough savannah, enough dignity and also enough guts to confront such an attack".


Since Chavez has been reaffirmed as president, the opposition (and no doubt US "observers") will say that the referendum was rigged and this proves Chavez is a dictator. The opposition is lead by the oligarchy, the rich and the bankers, the owners of the means of production, and is closely linked to the interests of the US. They see their fundamental interests threatened by the revolution which is developing in Venezuela.

Their use of democratic means (like the recall referendum) is just a small part of their strategy which includes the use of paramilitary forces (several leading pro-Chavez activists have been assassinated), riots in the streets, sabotage of the economy (i.e the 2002 lockout) and eventually foreign intervention. This is exactly what happened in Nicaragua.

Regarding Sumate: What Pub said. Sumate is on the payroll of all the major players in the opposition. If a search function were available you might find something from my old posts.

Sumate helped make the vote on whether to hold a recall of Chavez make George W's election look like a respectable way to conduct affairs. People voting two or three times, dead people voting, babies voting... They even stole peoples signatures from their bank details, and of course the banks turned a blind eye... Police seized over 600 false ID papers, printers, scanners and Sumate documents from an opposition leaders house.

All of this is nothing for the US to be ashamed of financing, apparantly.

Quote:
...as the article suggests...
I'll take that as a compliment. I get alot from
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

The rest is just my opinion.
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 10:08 AM       
I wish we could recall officials.
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 10:19 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
I wouldn't say Chavez is a little left, I would say he is alot left.
That was my joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Regarding Sumate: What Pub said.
Yeah, it's amazing what kind of compleately accurate assemblage of true facts you can get from opinion pieces found by a ten minute google search. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub Lover
...as the article suggests...
I'll take that as a compliment.
That's what I get for keywording the first post & trying to look smart as I babble my own halfbaked opinions.
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 10:22 AM       
IF YOUR HEART ISN'T IN IT...
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 04:20 PM       
I think your being somewhat cynical of the Carter folks. He and they said there was no evidence of fraud whatsoever.

Visa vi our current administration and Chavez, a litttle backstory. When he was ousted in a military coup we said he had it coming. When he was shortly thereafter restored by an alarmed public, we said he should take the whole thing as a lesson or something bad like a military coup might happen again. We funneled tax dollars through various pro democracy agencies to support the opposition ( which wante to recall a democratically elected leader) and when they lost in a landslide, we were on of only a handful of countries not to send our congratulations.

All because we so pationately believe in democracy.

If you go back a few pages you can find OAO parotting a lot of Neocon screed about how evil Chavez is and how much his on people hate him and how popular the recall is.
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 05:38 PM       
Contained Revolution

By Michael Shifter
Monday, August 23, 2004; Page A15

It's easy to interpret Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's big win at the polls as a sure sign that leftist radicalism is about to sweep the rest of Latin America. So far, though, there is little evidence to support that view.

Chavez's victory in the Aug. 15 recall referendum can be attributed to reasons unique to Venezuela. Record-high oil prices enabled Chavez to employ preelection gimmicks reflected in spectacular social spending in poor barrios. There is nothing radical about such a practice; rather, it is blatantly old-fashioned patronage politics of the sort Chavez has, ironically, often railed against. Chavez also benefited handsomely from turmoil over the U.S. Iraq policy that he so vehemently attacked.

And despite Venezuela's dismal performance under Chavez's rule -- all key indicators point to deterioration -- the economy is expected to grow roughly 10 percent this year, up from rock-bottom levels. Understandably, many poor Venezuelans extrapolated from Chavez's record over the past six months, not six years. For Chavez, the timing of the vote was exquisite and the circumstances exceptional.

Will he now use his enhanced legitimacy to deepen his "revolution" in Venezuela and throughout Latin America? It's futile to try to predict his behavior, but one does have to wonder what commentators -- and Chavez himself -- mean by "revolution." Chavez's own 1999 constitution is practically indistinguishable from the previous one, of 1961. The much-touted land reform has been marginal to Chavez's agenda and carried out in a lax fashion at best. Most notably, Chavez, though hostile to the Venezuelan private sector, has vigorously and successfully courted foreign investment in petroleum. One does not hear strong complaints about Chavez from Wall Street.

If this is a revolution it is, by Latin American standards, a peculiar one. Even Chavez's rhetoric, albeit emotionally appealing, is unlikely to find much resonance in the rest of Latin America. To be sure, in some countries there is a backlash against market reforms. Yet governments are pursuing, not jettisoning, fiscal discipline. This is not only sensible policy but smart politics. According to the recent 2004 Latinobarometro poll, most Latin Americans favor a market economy.

Brazil, Latin America's largest country and regional bellwether, is a striking case. President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva of the Workers' Party embodied hopes of a leftist experiment and a sweeping social reform agenda. But his macroeconomic policies have been a model of orthodoxy. The resulting rebound is yielding political dividends. Further, Leonel Fernandez, the Dominican Republic's new president, recently proposed a fiscal adjustment of some 20 percent. With limited options (not everyone has oil reserves), leaders are wisely leveling with their constituencies.

Peru, Ecuador and Colombia -- Venezuela's Andean neighbors -- have joined Mexico, Chile and, most recently, the Central American countries in seeking bilateral trade agreements with the United States. Though anti-trade sentiment is high in some quarters of the region, governments are nonetheless pressing for greater access to U.S. markets.

Even Bolivia, where protests forced a president to resign in October, hasn't given up on market recipes. The new government, sensitive to further tremors, is an observer at the Andean bilateral talks. The government's victory in a national referendum last month on oil and gas sectors helped reassure foreign investors. And it wasn't just economic measures but opposition to the U.S.-backed policy of coca eradication that contributed to the previous government's collapse.

In short, most Latin Americans are disinclined to follow Hugo Chavez's way. The region is looking for answers and ideas, and Chavez doesn't have them. So far a combination of unprecedented oil prices -- he does have money -- and an opposition lacking a political strategy has allowed Chavez to avoid making tough decisions. The opposition should let him prove he can govern -- and then take advantage of his predictable failures. This is, after all, what political oppositions typically do.

The United States, too, should not give Chavez any further excuses to avoid governing. In the past it has done so -- through clumsy moves or unnecessarily charged rhetoric -- and only increased Chavez's appeal in Venezuela and the rest of the region. Chavez no doubt gives voice to rising anti-Americanism in Latin America. After all, the United States is widely seen as having tried to subvert his rule at every turn. By working closely with other Latin American governments on the continuing challenge posed by Venezuela, Washington can reduce the risk that leftist radicalism in Latin America will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The writer is vice president for policy at the Inter-American Dialogue and adjunct professor of Latin American studies at Georgetown University.



© 2004 The Washington Post Company
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 05:45 PM       
Crooked computer programmers defeat will of the people
Carlos Alberto Montaner

I was wrong. On Aug. 15, I published an article in the Madrid newspaper ABC in which I predicted a comfortable victory for the opposition against Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez.

It was the day of the referendum. I based my prediction on four authoritative polls and on one fact that seemed definitive: According to the surveys, 55 percent of the women opposed Chávez, 39 percent supported him. That 16 percent difference was insurmountable. It was a transversal vote that ran through the nation's entire social spectrum. It seemed that the opposition should win without difficulty, and Chávez would be unable to resort to fraud, given the avalanche of votes against him.

That same afternoon, I phoned Caracas to find out how the voting was going. My sources confirmed my prediction. According to exit polls conducted after six million voters had participated, 59 percent of the people said that they had voted against Chávez, and 41 percent said that they had supported him.

I asked who had conducted the exit polls and was told that three different companies did them. Among them was Penn, Schoen & Berland, former President Clinton's pollsters, a New York firm famous for its accuracy. Its margin of error was 1 percent, and throughout its professional history the firm had never erred.

Just in case, I asked about the size of the sample, and the answer was conclusive: They had selected 267 polling places throughout the country and had taken the required precautions by picking the voters equitably. There was no doubt. The opposition had triumphed by a margin of almost 20 percent.

That kind of survey can fail if the voters lie. But that happens only when they fear reprisals and, obviously, to say that they voted for Chávez would not generate any sanctions.

By 5 p.m., all well-informed people in Venezuela and abroad knew that Chávez had been soundly defeated. But then the president of the National Electoral Council, Francisco Carrasquero, a contumacious Chavista who, like El Cid, wins battles after he's dead, announced two startling decisions: The referendum would be extended for several hours, and he was going to take a nap.

His task consisted of proclaiming Chávez's victory, and he wouldn't even have to invent the results because they would emerge from the official computers. Technically, he would not lie. He was an accomplice with a good alibi that would serve him well if someday he were brought before the courts of justice.

And so it was. The computers declared Chávez the winner with approximately 60 percent of the votes, while the opposition garnered only 40 percent. The predicted results had been reversed, almost to the millimeter.

In other words, the exit polls, which are not infallible but usually operate with a minimal margin of error, for the first time in the history of electoral surveying had erred by 40 percent, something practically impossible to believe.

Evidently, we are looking at an electronic fraud that the opposition is beginning to document patiently and with difficulty. The programs of thousands of computers were skillfully altered to limit the votes against Chávez.

This was a virtual, not real, victory, but it was enough to legitimize the government's triumph in the eyes of the international agencies and particularly the Carter Center and the Organization of American States, which announced Saturday that their audit supported the official results.

These two agencies know that agreeing with the opposition would plunge the country into a conflict that could drift into violence and inevitably will have international repercussions.

Strictly speaking, it is possible to understand the dilemma that Jimmy Carter and César Gaviria face. Formally, Chávez won, although they may suspect, even without conclusive proof, that he won in a fraudulent manner.

What to do? In my opinion, the most sensible thing would have been not to make a pronouncement, but rather create an international tribunal of experts to analyze and verify the electoral results. After all, neither the representatives of the Carter Center sent to Venezuela nor the OAS observers have the technical capability to analyze criminal manipulations of computer software.

I began this article conceding that I had erred by believing the electoral predictions in Venezuela. How did I err? I erred by believing that, faced with a huge defeat, Chávez would have to submit to the will of the people. Chávez was not counting on the people for his victory. A handful of crooked computer programmers would suffice. I should have realized this sooner. My regrets.

August 24, 2004.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 07:24 PM       
Bottom line folks - Is this going to affect the price of coffee beans substantially?
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Old Aug 24th, 2004, 07:35 PM       
Fuck coffee. What about my cocaine?
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Old Aug 25th, 2004, 10:42 AM       
Fuck Cocaine, what about my spanish fly?

Seriously, though, Preech.

A.) Who's the writer of that article? Who's he connected with, who's his boos and has lot more money turned up in his salary in the last six months?

B.) Does he site the exit polls he's talking about?

because,

C.) I find it hard to believe Carter and company would have missed that discrepancy and I find it equally hard to believe that Carter and co are part of some anti democratic conspiracy of silence.
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Old Aug 25th, 2004, 01:51 PM       


Carlos Alberto Montaner nació en La Habana, Cuba, en 1943. Reside en Madrid desde 1970. Ha sido profesor universitario en diversas instituciones de América Latina y Estados Unidos. Es escritor y periodista. Varias decenas de diarios de América Latina, España y Estados Unidos recogen desde hace más de treinta años su columna semanal. La revista Poder lo ha calificado como uno de los columnistas más influyentes en lengua española. Se calcula en seis millones de lectores semanales quienes tienen acceso a sus art*culos en español, inglés y portugués.

Montaner ha publicado una veintena de libros. Varios han sido traducidos al inglés, al portugués, el ruso y el italiano. Entre los mas conocidos y reeditados están Viaje al corazón de Cuba, Cómo y por qué desapareció el comunismo, Libertad: la clave de la prosperidad, y las novelas Perromundo y 1898: La Trama.

En 1978 la Editorial Planeta y la Universidad de Arkansas editaron un libro de cr*tica sobre su obra (La narrativa de Carlos Alberto Montaner). Dos de sus más polémicos y divulgados ensayos son los “best-sellers” Manual del perfecto idiota latinoamericano y Fabricantes de miseria, ambos escritos con la colaboración de Plinio Apuleyo Mendoza y Álvaro Vargas Llosa.

En 2001 publicó Las ra*ces torcidas de América Latina. En este libro Montaner aborda desde una perspectiva histórica uno de los asuntos más acuciantes de nuestra cultura: ¿por qué la América surgida de la colonización ibérica es el segmento más pobre e inestable de Occidente? Antes de esta obra, el autor, desde otros ángulos, hab*a reflexionado sobre el tema en dos libros también publicados por Plaza & Janés: La agon*a de América y No perdamos también el siglo XXI. En 2002, durante el primer centenario de la república, apareció Cuba: un siglo de doloroso aprendizaje, era el resultado de un ciclo de conferencias dictadas en la Universidad de Miami. En el 2003 publicó Los latinoamericanos y la cultura occidental.

En 1990 creó la Unión Liberal Cubana junto a exiliados y cubanos radicados en Cuba. El propósito era llevar el cambio democrático a la Isla por v*as pac*ficas. La ULC pronto se afilió a la Internacional Liberal. En 1992 Montaner fue elegido vicepresidente de la Internacional Liberal, cargo que ocupa desde entonces.



He's a widely read, syndicated columnist that mostly publishes in Spanish. The Miami Herald picks up a lot of his stuff. He's anti-Castro and pro-free trade.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Aug 25th, 2004, 02:05 PM       
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion.../mb_040820.htm
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Aug 25th, 2004, 02:37 PM       
Either that article was written for 10-year olds, or I'm better at Spanish than I thought. :/

Question: Is the term "liberal" used in Spanish to denote classical Liberalism, or the contemporaneous sense of "leftist"?
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Old Aug 25th, 2004, 06:10 PM       
Well, he's lived in Spain since the 70s, so I'm thinking classical liberalism, Euro-style. I'm thinking liberalism in a pejorative sense is an American invention though, as well. Foreign newspapers always refer to Dubya's experiment in Iraq as an attempt to install a liberal democracy, which I doubt would be his true intention. If liberalism has "evolved," I think we're the ones responsible. Everyone else seems to be stuck with the old version.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Aug 26th, 2004, 12:33 PM       
Thank god for Preechr or we'd never get both sides of any story.
And El Blanco.
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