Ironical Religiosity

[The_Rorschach]

Well. . .I'm not entirely sure why I'm sharing this with you, or what possible line of conversation can come of it, but as of this moment I'm spending a week with my parents (on my way to Virginia, and since its been about six years, decided to stop by, eat real food for once, and take general advantage of them ). My Dad attends a Thursday fellowship with a group of atheistic Jews -they study the Torah (or at least the Penatuch), but don't really believe that it is accurate, or that they are accountable to it, yet respect it all the same.

Anyway, I attended tonight and I actually learned quite a bit. If anyone has even a vague interest in religion, I would encourage them to find something similar and take part (I had never heard of Teshuvah (sp?) but found it very valuable and insightful from my Irish Protestant perspective). I'm already regretting the fact I have to leave so soon, I wish I could attend next week :/

[Perndog]

It's awfully hard to find religious groups having purely intellectual discussions - Christian Bible studies involve reading from the viewpoint of either "this is the literal word of God" or "what was God trying to teach us here?" with prayer mixed in, and I would assume most Jewish groups are the same. Just about any meeting with a religious purpose is pretty similar to a worship service, with maybe some intellectual content, but that content will be biased in some direction. Unless this fellowship is a common thing? I'm under the impression that it's kind of unique.

I know of plenty of atheist and humanist organizations that have meetings and even discuss scripture, but few look at much of it in a favorable light. Definitely good ways to learn, but they, too, usually have a bias that can color the proceedings.

[VinceZeb]

That, Ror, is the about the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard in my life. Jews who don't believe in God are going to study religious scripture! What joy and "deep insight"!


Fuck that. You either believe or you don't. Don't try to be high and mighty and "spiritual" by studying something you don't believe in just to get a good feeling.

[Big Papa Goat]

VinceZeb

[Immortal Goat]

By saying that, you have DISGRACED THE GOOD NAME OF GOATS EVERYWHERE!!!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Fuck that. You either believe or you don't. Don't try to be high and mighty and "spiritual" by studying something you don't believe in just to get a good feeling.

At what point in his post did you EVER see even the slightest sign of elitism and condescension....? You twit. You're right, non-believers should NEVER open themselves up to scripture, because that could on...er...well, I suppose that could only broaden the possibility of them finding faith, thus finding God, and perhaps "salvation."

I challenge you to find me ONE parson, Rabbi, or priest who would dispute the merit in such activities. They're smart enough to realize that faith comes through effort and openness, not stupidity and arrogance such as your own....

[Skulhedface]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

That, Ror, is the about the dumbest fucking thing I have ever heard in my life. Jews who don't believe in God are going to study religious scripture! What joy and "deep insight"!

OK... Tell me, when did free will leave this argument?

What does BELIEVING in God have to do with wanting to LEARN about religion? Statistically, more atheists know the Bible fully than do actual Christians. I myself have read through the Bible three times, and I'm no Christian. The stories make for some good reading.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Fuck that. You either believe or you don't. Don't try to be high and mighty and "spiritual" by studying something you don't believe in just to get a good feeling.

OK Vince, do you like sports? By your logic, unless you are a player or an announcer, STOP WATCHING THE FUCKING GAMES! Don't try to be all "high and mighty" by studying something you DON'T PLAY just to get a good feeling, even if it is just entertainment.

Since when did belief become a prerequisite to education?

I'm sersiously beginning to think Vinth is a troll or something. No one can be THAT close-minded and full of it.

[kahljorn]

God, will you please help me understand your holy word? I can't understand what you mean here! Also, can you get me a pair of those pink sandals, they'd go just perfect with..

[The_Rorschach]

"Jews who don't believe in God are going to study religious scripture! What joy and "deep insight"!"

Well, this for instance: In the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve (Aedaem and Huvul, as per the Hebrew pronunciation) had eaten of the forbidden fruit, they confronted God. The conversation eventually got to the point where both admitted they'd eaten of the fruit, and Adam inplicated Eve's fault by saying she brought him the fruit. God addressed her and said it was the serpent who beguiled her. . .But God didn't address the serpent. It occoured to me that it would follow that God would then ask the serpent, and I mentioned this to those gathered, to which I was instantly greeted with scorn and criticism. See the serpent couldn't enter Teshuva, the place of repentance, therefore could not be present for questioning. There were many little tidbits I had never before heard of which were brought to my attention which they seem to believe are universally known, but which are, sadly, not.

Now they do not believe in Satan, so we disagreed as to the importance of this, but I found it extremely interesting. Especially in regards to the seven thunders mentioned in the Revelation.

Oh, and Skulhed, you are the last authority on this subject which should interject into such conversations as these. Your baseless generalizations only give my claim further credence. I mean, I give alot of grief to people for stupidity, but none of them deserve it half as much as you. Not even Vince. Kindly leave the talking to grown-up members of this forum.

[The One and Only...]

I'm the anti-Vince on this. I think you should believe in the ideals before the idol: compromising your morals for the sake of salvation is just... well... wrong.

[Skulhedface]

Originally Posted by The_Rorschach

Oh, and Skulhed, you are the last authority on this subject which should interject into such conversations as these. Your baseless generalizations only give my claim further credence. I mean, I give alot of grief to people for stupidity, but none of them deserve it half as much as you. Not even Vince. Kindly leave the talking to grown-up members of this forum.

So let me get this straight...

Vince essentially says "You don't DESERVE to learn about religion, because you don't ACCEPT the faith!"

I say, basically, that he's full of it. If people want to learn about faith, then it's their prerogative.

Then you come along and say I'm stupid and tell me to let the grown ups talk. LOL @ the irony ("You're stupid." )

Or am I to assume you're a secret Vince Sympathist?

[Abcdxxxx]

Actually, what you described is pretty much how a normal Judaic study session goes even amongst believers of the faith. A Rabbi would be the first to welcome you to the discussion, no matter what your beliefs. It's encouraged to question, and even debate the material, as there is no one real definitive answer to anything. The Passover service, for example, is made up mainly of comparisons from theories of all the major Rabbincal thinkers.

I personally would much rather attend a study session with other Jews, but chances are I'd feel just as alien and out of place at Rorschach's group as I would with a bunch of Reconstructionists, or even Orthodox Jews. It's a really individual, regional, and family kind of tradition.

There's a computer at the birthplace of Christ that will tell you wether or not you're Jewish.... and um...go figure, that thing seems to think EVERYONE is a Jew. The religion is inclusive that way.

Vince can't possibly think Theology classes should involve segregation.

[Spectre X]

this thread makes me happy because Vince got HORRIBLY shot down

[KevinTheOmnivore]

He won't be vack to read it anyway.....notfor a while.

[Perndog]

See the serpent couldn't enter Teshuva, the place of repentance, therefore could not be present for questioning.

Can you tell me where this is mentioned or implied in the scripture, and if it's not there, tell me what source it's from? It doesn't really follow from anything I've ever read.

[Immortal Goat]

Does anyone agree with me when I say that Vince should take a long walk off a short peir and fuck an octopus?

[kahljorn]

"I challenge you to find me ONE parson, Rabbi, or priest who would dispute the merit in such activities. They're smart enough to realize that faith comes through effort and openness, not stupidity and arrogance such as your own"

I talked to a hardcore Christian Preacher priest monk type guy, one of the few I've met who had anything interesting to say. He said there's essentially two types of christians: Those who accept everything they are told, and those who analyze their own faith to try and improve their relationship with God.
He says those who accept the faith are good, but they should take the step to try to find God for themselves, because that is what God would want if he were real-- and blindly accepting something isn't "Faith", it's just "Ignorance". He phrased it differently than that though.

Then we started having conversations about buddhism and hinduism and other philosophies, he was intelligent and seemed to have thoughts of his own on God.

Most preachers don't know shit, they just goto bible college, memorize the bible, and quote him at every turn. That's not having a relationshp with God, it's having a relationship with the perceptions of men who wrote about God.

[The_Rorschach]

I would like to preface this by first saying I don't know shit. Judaism, and its princepts are a bit alien to me, and this is literally my first in depth experience with it. The following explanation is from a Rabbi, and his name along with the copyright is at the bottom, and I present it rather then offer up my own explanation because I believe you would rather have answers than my own possibly incomplete understanding .

Now, for the Jews I was studying with, they didn't believe in Satan. They believed the Serpent was sent by God in order to trouble man, and therefore had nothing to repent of. Personally, I believe the Serpernt was indwelt by Lucifer, and therefore beyond redemption, tying in with the seven thunders of Revelation.

Teshuva - Return

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Let the wicked one leave his way and the sinful man his thoughts; let him return to HaShem and He will show him mercy; [return] to our God for He is abundantly forgiving." Yeshaya (Isaiah) 55:7

The word teshuva means return. If a person violates one of HaShem's commandments (mitzvos), he is required to "return" to God. Teshuva consists of three basic steps:

Admitting your sin(s) to HaShem. This step is called vidui. This is a private matter. In general it is not proper to tell other people about the wrong things you have done.

Feeling regret that you sinned.

Making a commitment not to repeat the sin.

A person who properly fulfills the mitzva of teshuva is forgiven for his sins.


Although the mitzvah of teshuva applies all year, it takes on special significance in the period preceding the holidays of Rosh HaShana and Yom Kippur. On these holidays we are judged for the past year and HaShem decides how we will be rewarded or, God forbid, punished. For this reason the month preceding Rosh HaShana, Elul, is a special time for teshuva.

It is very important to remember that everything we do for Rosh HaShana and Yom Kippur, such as praying, blowing the shofar, fasting, and all of the other mitzvos and customs of this time, will only earn us forgiveness for our sins if they are accompanied by teshuva. Empty acts will not accomplish this goal.

© Eliezer C. Abrahamson

[AChimp]

What I don't understand is why an all-powerful, omnipotent god couldn't question someone because they weren't at a certain place at a certain time.

[Abcdxxxx]

There's something a little off about most online rabbis that I can't put my finger on. There's a ton of these Askarabbi.com types.

I've always thought it's pretty Sunday school basic that the serpent was there to test man...and we know the Bible is full of these tests.

It's true, Jews do not believe in Satan, but the original concept does come out of the Torah. It's believed to be a concept (good vs. evil) more then a person or a concrete thing.

The tradition of Yom Kippurim is practiced a bit different then described above. A Mitzvah is a good deed, which Jews are expected to do year round. What he's left out is a tradition called Slichot which means "sorry". Everyone has reasons to say slichot, and you say it to your friends, family, and neighbors, not just god. The service consists of reading off a number of sins we commit, out loud, and then asking for forgiveness. Wether or not it's proper would be up to your denomination I guess. There's also a tradition of tossing bread into the sea as a ceremonius "casting off of sins" that some partake in. The shofar sounds the opening of the books of life, and it's actually the week in between Rosh Hashana (the start of the new year) and Yom Kippur (when the books are closed and fate is sealed) that are the holiest time of the year.

Not sure if that even adds anything to this conversation but thought I'd share.

[Perndog]

I have trouble taking anything seriously in a religion as divided as Judaism. I have met Jewish women who read the word so strictly that they will not show their hair in public because they believe it will cause men to try and steal them from their husbands (we men are known for our weakness to the beauty of hair). And I once met a Jewish rabbi who preached at a synagogue every Saturday but claimed he didn't believe in God at all. There are too many things that some Jews say they aren't allowed and some are, too many rituals and observations that some Jews practice and some don't, etc.

[Abcdxxxx]

Uh, I think they call that diversity, not division. You're right, it's not a didactic religion that forces it's hand on it's followers.... it's expected that each individual will take the teachings and rise to the occasion in a manner that best fits their lifestyle...and it's expected that this will include some sacrifices. To each their own....there are plenty of religions with iron fist rules for you to respect instead.

[The_Rorschach]

"What I don't understand is why an all-powerful, omnipotent god couldn't question someone because they weren't at a certain place at a certain time."

I could try and answer this for you, but is it really something you have an interest in discussing?

[AChimp]

If you can explain it, go for it. But I warn you, I am liable to think that your explanation is silly. :P