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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 10:39 AM        Let the Canadians speak....
So, a few weeks ago this Canadian guy crashed at my place in Austin. Long story short, he was on his way north, heading back to campaign for Paul Martin.

Now, my understanding of the current political climate in Canada is shameful. I understand your process, but not the details. This guy told me a little bit, right before he insisted that we watch the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Anyway, I'm paraphrasing, and I may be distorting his tale, but I recall him saying that the Liberal Party has dominated for the past couple of decades, and despite having a parliamentary system, Canada has a strong tradition of a two-party system. This time, due to scandal surrounding Martin and such, the Conservatives have supposedly mounted a challenge.

So, I figured that since we talk about American politics all the time here, it might be a nice change of pace to hear about Canada. So, what say you Canadian(s)?? What's the deal...?
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 12:08 PM       
EDIT: Double post.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 12:25 PM       
What is it that you specifically want to know about?

There are four major parties in Canada. The Liberals are the centre party, Conservatives (formerly known as the Progressive Conservatives) are right-of-centre on most issues, and moderately right on others. The NDP are basically the left-wing party in Canada that was founded by farmers in the West; it's been through several incarnations since WWII, and more recently they've started moving closer to centre. The Bloc Quebecois are all over the place on issues, and are primarily concerned with separating from Canada; they don't run candidates outside of Quebec and can never hope to run the government. They're there just because.

Quite frankly, though, the Conservatives here suck and have always sucked, except for the dudes from a century ago that were all drunk and challenged each other to duels.

Here is why the Liberals have run Canada for about 75% of the last 130 years: the Conservatives, in their infinite wisdom, cut taxes but keep social programs going in order to make voters happy. Part of what defines Canada is our extensive social programs. This causes deficits that burden the country for the next 10 years. The Liberals then get voted in, drag us out of debt, create big surpluses and then the Conservatives get their act together, get elected, and ruin the surplus, and so on and so forth.

About a decade ago, the Reform Party was formed in the West because of complaints that the West was being ignored and there wasn't a party right-wing enough for a good balance. They later turned into the Canadian Alliance which completely bombed under Stockwell Day (his agenda was based to deeply in fundie Christianity, a lot of Canadians freaked out and the Alliance booted him out).

The PC's were decimated after the 80's and Mulroney, so they have merged with the Alliance Party to form the Conservative Party under Steven Harper. This has two effects: the right-wing vote is no longer split for the first time in about 15 years, and the progressive conservative party of old doesn't exist anymore. The Conservative Party has moved squarely into the right now. A lot of conservative voters haven't realized this yet; the party that is running IS NOT the party that they are familiar with. Many former PC's, including Joe Clark, have attacked Steven Harper for having a hidden agenda (most likely based on religion, again). His proposed budget has $50 billion that seems to have just appeared out of no where. He's said publicly that because homosexuality isn't explicitly stated in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (aka Canada's Constitution) it doesn't count as a protected right (as in, although it's bad to discriminate, if you discriminate against someone because they're gay, that's technically okay because it's not in the books). He keeps hedging on his stance on abortion.

The Liberal sponsorship scandal isn't that big of a deal, IMO. The money was going to Liberal-friendly companies in Quebec, which have basically supressed the whole separatist movement. Harper's main criticism of Martin is that the money was doled out while he was finance minister. The catch is, though, if it had been the Conservatives in power, that money would have been going to Conservative-friendly companies. Unfortunately, Martin isn't half the leader that Chretien was and isn't anywhere near as cool.

Regardless, we're probably heading towards a minority government, which means that we will be voting again in 18 months, statistically speaking. The NDP is trying to steal votes from the Liberals, the Liberals are trying to steal votes from the Conservatives who are still miffed at the party merger, and the Conservatives finally have a united front.

Interestingly, enough, though, even IF the Conservatives win more seats than the Liberals, as long as Martin is within 30 seats he still gets to be prime minister if the Conservatives do not have a majority. He is given the chance to form a coalition with one of the other parties first.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:09 PM       
- The Liberals and NDP's 'attack/negative ads' include images of US Pres. Moron, US aircraft carriers, US soldiers in Iraq and even mentions US style medicare.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:23 PM       
Is there a party for Canadian libertarians?
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:36 PM       
Yeah, but they don't exist at the moment (no candidates and the people running it lost interest).

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...ical%20parties

There's literally dozens of parties, but only four serious contenders. For most parties that are registered, only the founder runs for office and promptly loses. Then they realize that they're better off just writing letters.

I would've voted for the Rhinoceros Party, though. According to what I've heard, they got really close to actually having an MP elected to the House in the '70s.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:39 PM       
- Yes there's such a party, but I doubt they're campaigning nationally. I honestly spoken to a Libertarian once and he appeared insane, but I'm sure overall they're a happy lot who just want to destroy our society, that's all. Anyways, here's their fuckin' site: Libertarian.ca

:/ - There's also the Green Party with candidates in all ridings and they're in 5th place with 2% to 6% support. Their site: GreenParty.ca.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:42 PM       
Yeah, the libertarians are nutjobs that stand on street corners and preach about the end of the world. They usually only run provincially, and you phone the police when they knock on your door.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:50 PM       
if harper gets in the whole of canada is fucked.

want an example of what conservative rule does?
look at ontario.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 04:58 PM       
achimp hit it right on the head about our conservatives, every single time they get in power they cut taxes like hell and refuse to cut social programs for fear of pissing people off, leading to huge deficits and giving us no choice but to elect the liberals.

Its almost as if they are determined to destroy themselves. it always takes them like 10 years to recover too. This time however they are coming back in an even more extreme right state, basically the republican party of the north.

People vote in conservatives on massive tax cutting platforms, kick them out just as we start to really get fucked, and then blame the liberals when they have to raise taxes to make up for it, then go right back to the insane conservatives, and so on and so on forever.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 05:00 PM       
what we need IMO is for the conservatives to eat shit and die, the liberals to move a little more right and stop stealing votes from the NDP, and the NDP to settle slightly left of centre.


Then we could have a 2 party system, since the bloc can also eat shit and die, and everyone would be happy.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 06:34 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
I would've voted for the Rhinoceros Party, though. According to what I've heard, they got really close to actually having an MP elected to the House in the '70s.
[center:106c7401e2]

Click image to enter Marijuana Party of Canada, dude[/center:106c7401e2]
I actually looked on the ballot and was ready to vote for Rhino once, but there wasn't a candidate in my riding and instead voted for that fuckin' back stabbin' John Turner looser.

I remember seeing on the news about a Rhino candidate who was leading in the polls and after learning of this he quickly sabotaged his own campaign.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 10:01 PM       
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Originally Posted by the[Hitman
]if harper gets in the whole of canada is fucked.

want an example of what conservative rule does?
look at ontario.
Or Alberta
Harper isn't nearly as much of a retard as Stockwell Day was, but his ideas on increasing military spending, health care spending and cutting taxes to American levels is ridiculous. But then again, the liberals have wasted a shitload of money with the sponsorship scandal, and most of it was for incredibly frivolous nonsense.
I'm voting Green just so they can enough votes to qualify for federal funding.

EDIT: I also kind of like the NDP simply because they're the only party that isn't being completly full of shit about their platform. He says that his party will raise taxes on corporations and the rich, reduce taxes for lower income people and families, and increase the funding to the programs that benefit them. He's also been making the claim that the Liberal and Conservative party's are both pretty much the same thing, except that Harper has the balls to actually stand up and say it.

The Liberals are of course probably the most full of shit party in the country right now, their campaign pretty much focuses on making people think that the Liberal platform somehow universally reflects Canadian values, and calling Harper an far right semi-American extremist that hates immigrants and gays.

That being said, the federal cuntservaitves are too full of shit for the reasons that have been stated by the others in this thread.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 11:08 PM       
The Liberals are really the only ones fit to run the country, though. The Conservatives would fuck shit up, and the NDP would make us all paupers.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 11:23 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Papa Goat
I'm voting Green just so they can enough votes to qualify for federal funding.
Federal funding is usually based on the amount of MPs in the House and not on the vote count, which means by the most optimistic polls, the Green Party can possibly win one to two seats which is short of at least 10 more MPs required to reach official party status and this means they'll get no federal funding.
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Old Jun 18th, 2004, 11:57 PM       
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Originally Posted by AChimp
The Liberals are really the only ones fit to run the country, though. The Conservatives would fuck shit up, and the NDP would make us all paupers.
you nailed that one.
as of late, the NDP have become neo-hippies like the green party.
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 01:31 AM       
@the[Hitman]:

Hello. I am Helm. I am in charge of this section of the message board (philosophy and/or politics, which will be philosophy and/or politics from here and onwards) as the main moderator. It has been told to me by the general managment that you have to change your name before you can post in this section (philosophy and/or politics) of the I-mockery Message Boards. Your type is best kept in the General Blabber but if you insist on partaking in political and/or philosophical discussion, there is an option left for you. Change your username, and signature. Register a different account if you must. I have been told to pass along that we are making an exception on you as to what is stated in the creation of characters in the rules and guidelines, since your new philosophy and/or politics message board friendly persona will not indeed be a character in the true sense of the word. Finding such loopholes is what we philosophy and/or politics people like to do as an enjoable passtime, heh. Anyhow, the new account's name must not include any of the following:

* References to computer games and other electronic means of entertainment, especially those that are said to be not so good. The reason for this is that this section of the boards (philosophy and/or politics) must maintain a high degree of seriousness if there are any valuable arguments to be had, philosophical essays to be posted and for whatever else that is customary to be done, to be thusly done. In this spirit, you are also urged to post a ":serious" emoticon after your every post. This is considered standard practise. You might notice that not many others do this and this would maybe -depending on your wits- lead you to believe there is a contradiction between what I have just said and the real, actual happenings in this section of the boards (philosophy and/or politics). Astute on your part, but sadly invalid. The reason not many others post the customary :serious at the end of their posts is that they've been in this section of the boards (philosophy and/or politics) for a long period of time and thusly the degree of seriousness of their posts - which is to say, complete and utter- has been deemed satisfactory. Yours however, has not yet.

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* Usage of punctuation and/or numerals. For example if we were to ignore prohibition one above, "the [Hitman]" as a chosen username would still not do, which is to say, would call for yet another username audit, at the moderator's will. "The Hitman" or simply "Hitman" would be in no violation of the rule, however. Also, a clever loop-hole would be to keep the valid alterations of your name, but remove all references to computer games in your signature and general information, thusly removing any actual connection which would prompt a username audit, at the moderator's will. You would, keep to your private knowledge that your chosen username does indeed refer to a popular computer game, but none would be able to call this lateral connection into question. This is the way of the philosophy and/or politics message board user and for such cunning you would surely be applauded by your fellow posters, which is to say, you would be generally ignored.

These are the sections of the code you are in violation currently. In choosing your new username you should however be aware of the rest of the code that partains to username creation and/or usage within the confines of this section (philosophy and/or politics) of the message board:

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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 07:28 AM       
I don't think I'm ever leaving this forum again, as long as administrator Helm is in charge. :serious
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 08:34 AM       
Rules must be maintained, until they are found unfit to be done so, which is to say, they have been made redundant via clever usage of loop-hole, which means they would be considered invalid for an undefined amount of time in which the moderator group of this section (philosophy and/or politics) of the I-mockery Message Boards can revise them, which is to say alter then is significant ways, which is to say attach enough errata so that the past loop-holes will again be considered invalid, in which case they will again be considered fit to, as mentioned above, be maintained.
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 09:01 AM       
What about the "Freedom" party of Canada, which is really libertarian but for some reason associates that title with anarchists?
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 09:02 AM       
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What about the "Freedom" party of Canada, which is really libertarian but for some reason associates that title with anarchists?
What about them?
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 12:05 PM       
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Originally Posted by AChimp
Yeah, the libertarians are nutjobs that stand on street corners and preach about the end of the world. They usually only run provincially, and you phone the police when they knock on your door.
- The one I spoken to was just two blocks away from the Peace Tower and that's too close for my personal comfort. I say the Mounties should round them up and ship them off to Frobisher Bay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
What about the "Freedom" party of Canada, which is really libertarian but for some reason associates that title with anarchists?
- They'll only have candidates by 2008. Their fuckin' site: FreedomParty.ca

- Nobody gives a shit about them except for window repairmen and the police and maybe, just maybe you can learn something from the following quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
The Liberals are really the only ones fit to run the country, though. The Conservatives would fuck shit up, and the NDP would make us all paupers.
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 12:11 PM       
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Is there a party for Canadian libertarians?
I got the impression that this is what the late Reform Party was all about. Have more "libertarian" voters been absored into the conservative coalition....?

Furthermore, what numbers could they possibly even represent? BPG said it bothered him that the Liberals claimed to represent Canadian values, but as far as I can tell, they in fact do. I read a recent speech by Martin, and it just amazes me that a politician can stand up and talk of welfare state policies the same way our president can talk about "hard working Americans" and how much we love freedom and shit.....
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 12:49 PM       
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I got the impression that this is what the late Reform Party was all about. Have more "libertarian" voters been absored into the conservative coalition....?
Ehh... there aren't really any "libertarians" in Canada. The people that label themselves with that term do so and vote for the Conservatives.

You have to look at it this way: every major political party in Canada is really just a different flavour of centre. Some are to the left, others are to the right. The parties that don't get elected are the fringe parties that are truly left or truly right, and voters view them as too radical.

The Liberals make a good balance because they are right on some issues and left on others; in the end, it may not make everyone happy but you have a higher level of people who say the government is doing "okay." Better to have 70% of the population saying that you're doing "okay" than 40% saying you're awesome and the remaining 60% hating your guts. Canadians like being in the middle.

Quote:
I read a recent speech by Martin, and it just amazes me that a politician can stand up and talk of welfare state policies the same way our president can talk about "hard working Americans" and how much we love freedom and shit.....
Well, a country won't function as effectively as it could if half of the people are living in relative squalor compared to the rest. So we're not as rich as Americans... at least we are happier on the whole. :P
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Old Jun 19th, 2004, 12:56 PM       
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Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore
I got the impression that this is what the late Reform Party was all about. Have more "libertarian" voters been absored into the conservative coalition....?
- The Reform/Alliance/New Conservative Party is actually a right-wing regional party trying to pass off as a national one. Their hardcore support has always been the far right-wing Alberta members/supporters of the Progresssive Conservative Party with even a few neo-Nazis to boot.
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