IRAQ seems to be falling apart

[mburbank]

Just when we thought our only big problem was the sunni triangle, fallujah in particular, it looks as if the Shitte majority (The ones who were supposed to greet us with flowers) have had it. They are rioting all over the country and we just released an arrest warrant for one of their clerics, which although propbably justified isn't going to make them happier with us.

The timming is kind of bad becuase we just sent a large portion of the Marines in Iraq to 'seal off' Fallujah and 'pacify' it. I'm not sure exactly how that's going to work.

So of the three ethnic groups in Iraq, we know the Sunni's hate us, the Shiites are well on their way to hating us... Anyone up for a free Kurdistan?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

We need to get more of an international presence in there, diversify this "occupation." I truly do believe that most American soldiers there have nothing but good intentions, and probably believe all of the "liberation" shit they were fed, but it's time to start pulling them out and putting the UN in.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

We need to get more of an international presence in there, diversify this "occupation." I truly do believe that most American soldiers there have nothing but good intentions, and probably believe all of the "liberation" shit they were fed, but it's time to start pulling them out and putting the UN in.

Yep.

The question is: what other countries will be willing to step into Iraq now that bombs are being left on train tracks?

[mburbank]

"We have problems, there's no hiding that. But basically Iraq is on track to realize the kind of Iraq that Iraqis want and Americans want, which is a democratic Iraq," Bremer said on ABC's "Good Morning America."


But he said continuing disturbances would not affect the American handover schedule.


"June 30 is the date. We're going to stick to it," he said.

[Buffalo Tom]

Did anyone see the impromptu press briefing Bush held yesterday? He seemed very irritated and tripped over his words.

'We've got to stay the course and we will stay the course.'

[davinxtk]

My friend Steve is sitting next to me talking about his friend from Plymouth who just got wasted over in Iraq.

We need to get the fuck out of there and let the UN, or whoever the fuck wants to, deal with the situation. We've destroyed their cities, occupied their country, and caused enough riots and turmoil to keep the anti-American sentiment alive for another four, eight, twelve, however many years it is before another republican president decides that control over oil wells is a "weapon of mass destruction."

[Buffalo Tom]

See, the problem is the U.S. bombed the crap out of Iraq, so there are no flowers to throw at the troops. Instead, Iraqis have had to resort to throwing grenades.

[AChimp]

The U.S. should have listened to Canada's Iraq proposal. Of course, we don't have a good concept of foreign relations, so what od we know?

[Buffalo Tom]

Originally Posted by AChimp

The U.S. should have listened to Canada's Iraq proposal. Of course, we don't have a good concept of foreign relations, so what od we know?

Yeah, we only came up with the idea for UN Peackeepers and help draft the international human rights charter. What the hell do we know about diplomacy and international relations?

[Rez]

Originally Posted by mburbank

"We have problems, there's no hiding that. But basically Iraq is on track to realize the kind of Iraq that Iraqis want and Americans want, which is a democratic Iraq," Bremer said on ABC's "Good Morning America."
.

:/

[punkgrrrlie10]

Originally Posted by davinxtk

My friend Steve is sitting next to me talking about his friend from Plymouth who just got wasted over in Iraq.

We need to get the fuck out of there and let the UN, or whoever the fuck wants to, deal with the situation. We've destroyed their cities, occupied their country, and caused enough riots and turmoil to keep the anti-American sentiment alive for another four, eight, twelve, however many years it is before another republican president decides that control over oil wells is a "weapon of mass destruction."

If only Bush had waited for the UN to actually approve going into Iraq and they actually had....our troops would still be the one's over there. Do you know what the UN army is composed of? The UN isn't it's own country.

We see alot of bad press, and yes soldiers die. You kind of have to resolve to that when you enlist. It's a little far-fetched to think being a soldier, in a war/occupation things are just rosy and people throw daisies at your feet.

Do you really think if we pulled out it wouldn't just get worse? That some dictator wouldn't just grab power and the country would be right back where we ripped it from? We caused it, of course we have to clean it up. It's called responsibility for one's actions. And it's going to be difficult to instill the idea of democracy into a people who have been ruled by a cruel dictator where it was probably tantamount to torture or a death sentence if one were to voice opposition to the regime. I can imagine their history books being slanted towards Sadaam's version of history just as ours do to our own. It's very early in the game; it takes along time to develop a system of gov't. Our first constitution, the Articles dismally failed but it still took a couple years to do so and the country was on the brink of collapse for a very long time right after the revolution. I say expecting a working gov't in 1 year is a pretty big order. Sadly, the only people who can speak up in Iraq, are the one's that have no qualms about bombing contractors/civilians b/c they've never been afraid to die for their causes anyway. Of course we don't wanna die for another country, but our war chief was elected to be in charge of our army and this is what he's done.

[Brandon]

Oh, and if the UN is planning on offering some support, they should probably hurry the fuck up. Nobody's stopping them.

[AChimp]

Well, see, we don't want to help now that you've made a right good mess of it.

The U.S. is being like the neighbour who insists on renovating by themself when they have no experience. "No, no," says the the other neighbour, who happens to be a qualified handyman. "If you do it this way, it will save you time and money." The first neighbour brushes him off, saying that he knows what he's doing and if you're not willing to do it his way, you'll just be getting in the way. So, he convinces a few friends to help with the promise of free beer and away they go.

A few days into the project, he finds out that he's cut holes in load-bearing walls and the wallpaper has bubbles. With the roof falling in, he goes back to the handyman neighbour and asks to borrow his tools.

But you know what? He's already loaned out all of his tools to other people so they can fix the doghouse, deck and gazebo that were abandoned in the quest for the most awesomest yard.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

Such negative karma towards the "U.S."

Maybe if each of you can identify three good things that the "U.S." does we'll all feel better.

[mburbank]

1.) Separation of powers.

2.) Foreign aid.

3.) Freedom of the press.


Or did you mean things we do over in Iraq? Because that I'm not as clear on.

Seriously, the idea that Liberals aren't patriotic is a canard. I'm fiercely patriotic about our constitution and our bill of rights and I'll go toe to toe with anyone about what they mean. One of the reasons I'm so vehemently against this administration is I seriously believe it's fundamentally dangerous to much of what I think makes America a great, historically important country. Throughout my life I have strongly disliked Republicans from Nixon to Bush Sr. but I never thought they were truly dangerous to America in the long term and honestly never imagined I could feel that way. It's my very patriotic opinion that W and company are a very different animal than we have seen in power during my life.

[BombsBurstingInAir]

That's a good start Max!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

http://www.thisislondon.com/til/jsp/...temId=10169441

The Iraqis holding Japanese journalists and an aid worker have threatened to burn the men alive if Japan doesn't pull out of Iraq in three days.

I'm getting really tired of this shit.

[kellychaos]

Sure, setting up a democratic government in a year is a pretty big order. I didn't reallistically buy it then and I wish we had never gotten involved. We did; however, and I guess there's no use crying over spilled milk. I still don't like the way the administration went about it. To recap:

a) Bush has had a hate-on for the Iraq since he got into office, which is evident in his meetings with Tony Blair and various other U.S. intelligence and defense administrators way before the 9/11 trajedy.

b) The towers are collapsed and he takes advantage of the anti-muslim sentiment in the air to suddenly warn americans of the terrorist threat and scare us with the possible use of WMD which have yet to be found. Half the people I talk to STILL believe that Iraq is responsible for the 9/11 trajedy when, in truth, over half the terrorists involved were Saudi Arabian nationals.


c) Not only are no connections found from the Iraqis found as the war progresses, but neither are no WMD. He SOLD the whole war on the threat.

d) They finally admit to the fact that the intelligence on the threat of WMD was, at best, weak. That's a fact that the U.N. officials knew all along. That's why they didn't endorse the war ... well, that and the various economic interest of major U.N. players.

e) Suddenly, it's a war for the democracy of an oppressed and terrorized people which is to be organized and handed back to these same people within the yearm or so. Now, I knew that the handing over of the reign was going to be, more or less, a ceremonial thing under our continued occupation. That just the way that these things go. That is NOT; however, how the current administration sold. More slight of hand.

f) So here we are with an american people who have been lied to and disallusioned. Can you understand why they might be angry over lack of results while waiting for more lies and/or manipulation?

[Jeanette X]

If Bush is reelected, I'll kill myself.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by AChimp

Well, see, we don't want to help now that you've made a right good mess of it.

How noble.

[Brandon]

There's no way we're going to get out of this mess without either looking like bad guys or cowards.

So, subdue resistance with maximum force or flee? What's it going to be, folks?

[davinxtk]

Originally Posted by punkgrrrlie10

If only Bush had waited for the UN to actually approve going into Iraq and they actually had....our troops would still be the one's over there. Do you know what the UN army is composed of? The UN isn't it's own country.

Great job. Don't you feel like you've made a point?
The UN would have sent more than just American troops over there, and I would bet an oil well or two that the Iraqi people (most specifically the ones who hung, dragged, beat, burned, rinse, repeat) would respect the UN forces, contractors, intents, and purposes a hell (or at least a hot desert) of a lot more than they do anything bearing the stars and stripes.

Originally Posted by punkgrrrlie10

Do you really think if we pulled out it wouldn't just get worse? That some dictator wouldn't just grab power and the country would be right back where we ripped it from? We caused it, of course we have to clean it up. It's called responsibility for one's actions.

You know what? Good riddance. If the (seeming) majority of the people in the country think they'd be a lot better without our soliders in their country, I'm sure as shit that we'd be a lot better in the event of the same absence of troops.
We made a mess, and now we're being yelled at to get the fuck out of the room so they can clean it up themselves. By staying there as long as we have we've just smeared the problem around a bit and added more of our own to the body count.

Originally Posted by punkgrrrlie10

And it's going to be difficult to instill the idea of democracy into a people who have been ruled by a cruel dictator where it was probably tantamount to torture or a death sentence if one were to voice opposition to the regime. I can imagine their history books being slanted towards Sadaam's version of history just as ours do to our own. It's very early in the game; it takes along time to develop a system of gov't. Our first constitution, the Articles dismally failed but it still took a couple years to do so and the country was on the brink of collapse for a very long time right after the revolution. I say expecting a working gov't in 1 year is a pretty big order. Sadly, the only people who can speak up in Iraq, are the one's that have no qualms about bombing contractors/civilians b/c they've never been afraid to die for their causes anyway. Of course we don't wanna die for another country, but our war chief was elected to be in charge of our army and this is what he's done.

Look, the mess regarding Democracy isn't ours, or Saddam's fault. It's the region and its thousands of years nomadic, tribal tendencies. Power is the blade of a sword (or, more aptly, the largest explosive you can strap to your torso and still stand upright) and there's no way to erase that mentality. The best we can hope to accomplish is prop up a mediocre democracy, secretly fund a terrorist attack against it, and use it as an excuse for another war. This is America we're talking about.

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

There's no way we're going to get out of this mess without either looking like bad guys or cowards.

So, subdue resistance with maximum force or flee? What's it going to be, folks?

I'll take the latter and a side of freedom fries, please.

[Ant10708]

Isn't the reason the U.N. left Iraq is because someone bombed their hotel or soemthing? I'm also pretty sure they were peacekeepers and not U.N. soldiers. I could be wrong.

Yeah they are sure as hell respected.

[Brandon]

Keep in mind we've been attempting to get the U.N. more involved for some time now.

[ranxer]

the UN headquarters in Iraq were bombed for working with the U.S. and revenge for being the headquarters of the Food for Oil program that again had U.S. oversight and approval.
the UN would have more legitimacy if the U.S. wasnt using it as a tool half the time. we seriously need to do more listening and cooperating with the UN members instead of threatening and ballbusting.
I don't think we will get much international support until the American corporations relinquish control of the contracts and open it to fair bidding.