I guess we ARE waging a sensitive war!

[mburbank]

Rumsfeld: Strike Won't Kill Many Iraqis


By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Monday that large numbers of Iraqi civilians would not be killed, "certainly not by U.S. forces," during the siege to retake Fallujah, even as the top U.S. commander there predicted a "major confrontation" between insurgents and up to 15,000 troops in the Sunni Muslim city.

[FS]

The way that's phrased, it sounds like Rummy was winking meaningfully or pulling at the flesh under his eye with his fingertip while saying it.

[Ronnie Raygun]

How do you get that from "certainly not by U.S. forces" and "major confrontation"????

Maybe that's just the way you want to see it...

[mburbank]

It's what we call sarcasm.

Rumsfelds statement is ridiculous. He has no way of knowing what civillian casualties will be like. It's lip service to the idea that there isn't much collateral damage when the US wages war, and since our official policy is not to release a civillian death toll, it's nonsense.

And what's that "Not by US forces" shit supposed to mean? Does thuis mean the Iraqi forces have carte blanche to kill civillians?

I think it's more likely Rummy hasd already defined 'civillians' for himself as people who have already left Fallujah and everyone remaining there as 'combatants', which is all fine as far as Clintonian Sophistry goes, but renders the statement pointless, like saying "No giraffes will be killed in the assault on Fallujah."

[Ant10708]

Originally Posted by mburbank

And what's that "Not by US forces" shit supposed to mean? Does thuis mean the Iraqi forces have carte blanche to kill civillians?

He could of been suggesting that the terrorists and or the insurgents would be the ones mainly contributing to civilian causalties.

[Ant10708]

They also estimated that roughly 100,000 civilians are still in the city.

[mburbank]

Well, you can be very sure that either those aren't civillians since we ordered them out or their deaths will not come about as a result of American ordinance penetrating their bodies. No sir. Very few civillian deaths.

Actually, I think reports of limmited resistance are a sign we're well on our way to another 'catastrophic victory'. Do you think W will be stupid enough to say "Mission accomplished" again?

[Dole]

He could of been suggesting that the terrorists and or the insurgents would be the ones mainly contributing to civilian causalties.

How the fuck could they know that? particularly in view of the fact they have been bombing the shit out of the place today?

[Ant10708]

How the fuck am I suppose to know? I'm just telling you what he was probaly suggesting instead of jumping to the conclusion that he was blaming the Iraqi forces for the deaths.

[mburbank]

I feel certain the US military will conduct detailed ballistics tests to determine the cause of death of each Iraqi, and background checks to make an educated guess as to whether they were civillian or insurgent.

I mean, if we didn't count them and then just burried them in some sort of, I don't know, mass grave, we'll then we'd be...

What was it Roger Daltry said? "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?


Say, if you had the missortune to be a resident of Fallujah, do you think you think things were better now that sadaam was gone?

[Ant10708]

Yes if I was one of the smart ones who left before the US bombardment.

[Strapping Young Lad]

Yes, let's place the blame on the Fallujah civilians themselves. After all, we all know for certain that each and every one of them had an unabated oppurtunity to leave the area before the U.S. forces struck.

[Ant10708]

Because its not like its been taking weeks or months to attack Falluja or anything. It was done suddenly without any warning whatsoever. I'm sure plenty of them just didn't want to leave their homes anyways which you can't blame them for. I wasn't being entirely serious the post above. Wasn't Falluja one of the cities with tons of Saddam supporters? So obviously for them its worse if that indeed is the case.

[mburbank]

So, Ant, you're saying picking up and leaving your house or apartment or parents basement or where-ever the hell you live and hitting the road as a refugee with no job, no clear idea where you might go that was safe or when or if you could go back, and no idea if your home would still be standing or just a smoldering pile of rubble would be something you be okay with as long as it came with freedom being on the march and all?

I'm not saying that isn't a whole lot better than being one of the unlucky few civillians who might die in this assault, I'm just saying it might make you nostalgic for Sadaam., particularly since these aren't Kurds we're talking about, or even Shiites, this was a city full of Sunis.

[Ant10708]

So they were Saddam supporters? Thats what i said then they obviously have it worse off then when their guy was in charge.

If i was in Iraq living as an Iraqi the last thing I would probaly be okay with is fleeing my city because westerners are attacking. But if you still wanted to avoid the heavy bombings I think that civilians did have a gateway opened for them to escape. I bet alot of the people we are after took advantage of our excessively long prepartion to attack Falluja and the gateway we intended for civilians.

I also doubt their were flourshing businesses operating currently in Falluja. Having your city harboring the majority of the insurgents and terrorists in war filled country can't be good for business. Besides the business of kidnapping I doubt many entrepreneurs were affected by the attack on Falluja.

I don't look at America and see an enemy so I put some faith in our attempt to limit civilian casulaties. It is difficult to do that with bombs weighing thousands of pounds but I don't think we spot a hospital or mosque and start waving around our cowboy hats while the bomb drops on it.

[mburbank]

I think those even those Fallujans who were real glad to see us coming wish we'd never come in the first place at this point.

And I don't think we'd deliberately target a hospital or Mosque just for the fun of it. But I don't think, and I don't see how anyone in a situation like this is going to excercise a lot of disgression. In Urban combat, civillians get killed. For Rumsfled to imply anything else is dishonest and repugnant. That's my point. If God is anything at all like serious Christians think he is, there's special part of hell reserved for pople like Rumsfeld who talk shit like that while people are dying.

Maybe it's unavoidable. Maybe you can say we're in no way to blame for the people we kill. That's arguable. War is a dirty business and people get hurt. But step up to the plate and be honest if you think it has to be done. Be a man and shoulder the costs. That's what I hate most about these fuckers. Can you see Patton saying "I don't think a lot of civillians will get killed. Certainly not by us." That smug son of a bitch needs a little twilight zone justice. He needs to wake up as a grunt in retrograde body armour at the front of the line in a Fallujah alleyway. Or better yet , an old Arab man cowering in a basement while bombs go off overhead.