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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Dec 6th, 2006, 01:48 PM        Iraq Panel
So? Opinions? Will W talk with Iran and/or Syria? Will he link Iraq with Palestinian issues? Will there be any sort of motion toward a troop draw down? Will he red any of the report himself?

And what of the "Least bad" approach? W has repratedly said that Victory is his exit strategy. This report pretty much says that the possability of 'victory' in any of the ways W has defined it is past.





Iraq Panel Warns of Looming "Catastrophe" in Iraq
By Peter Baker, Dafna Linzer and William Branigin
The Washington Post

Wednesday 06 December 2006

Circumstances in Iraq are "grave and deteriorating," with a potential government collapse and a "humanitarian catastrophe" if the U.S. does not change course and seek a broader diplomatic solution to the problems that have wracked the country since the U.S. invaded, according to a bipartisan panel that sent its findings to President Bush and Congress today.

In what amounts to the most extensive independent assessment of the nearly four-year-old conflict that has claimed the lives of 2,800 Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis, the Iraq Study Group painted a bleak picture of a nation that risks a "slide toward chaos" without new efforts to reconcile its feuding religious and ethnic minorities.

Despite a laundry list of recommendations meant to encourage regional diplomacy and lead to a draw down of U.S. forces over the next year, the panel acknowledged that stability in the country may be impossible to achieve any time soon.

"No one can guarantee that any course of action in Iraq at this point will stop sectarian warfare, growing violence or a slide toward chaos," the panel's two chairmen, former Secretary of State James A. Baker III and former Democratic Congressman Lee Hamilton, wrote in a joint letter accompanying the 142 page report. "There is no magic formula to solve the problems of Iraq."

The 79 recommendations include the withdrawal of most U.S. combat troops by early 2008, but with a large force left behind to train and assist Iraqi security and military personnel. It also proposes setting benchmarks for Iraq to assume control of its own security, and threaten to reduce military or financial aid if deadlines are missed. A broad diplomatic initiative, including overtures to Iran and Syria and renewed efforts to broke an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal, is also recommended.

"If current trends continue, the potential consequences are severe," with sectarian clashes spreading, Al Qaeda claiming at least a propaganda victory, and U.S. stature in the world diminished, the report found. Given the stakes, and the responsibility the U.S. holds for invading in the spring of 2003, "the United States has special obligations," and needed to "address as best it can Iraq's many problems."

President Bush received a copy of the long-awaited report this morning and vowed that his administration would take its recommendations "very seriously" and act on them "in a timely fashion."

Flanked by the co-chairmen of the study group, Bush told reporters in the White House that the report contains "some really interesting proposals" and gives "a very tough assessment of the situation in Iraq."

Bush also urged members of Congress to take the report seriously, but he said that neither Congress nor his administration were likely to agree with every proposal by the study group.

Bush did not provide any details of the recommendations, but some of them have been outlined by knowledgeable sources in recent days.

Some proposals in the report track measures that the administration is already carrying out or is considering, but several directly challenge Bush in areas in which he has refused to compromise. The president has rejected talking with Iran and Syria and has resisted linking the Iraq war to the Palestinian issue. He has dismissed timetables for troop withdrawals, although the panel cites 2008 as a goal rather than a firm deadline. He has also declined to punish Iraqis for not making progress in establishing security.

Although the study group will present its plan as a much-needed course change in Iraq, many of its own advisers concluded during its deliberations that the war is essentially already lost, according to private correspondence obtained yesterday and interviews with participants. The best the commission could put forward would be the "least bad" of many bad options, as former ambassador Daniel C. Kurtzer wrote.

An early working draft from July stated that "there is even doubt that any level of resources could achieve the administration's stated goals, given the illiberal and undemocratic political forces, many of them Islamic fundamentalists, that will dominate large parts of the country for a long time."

In private e-mail exchanges over the past two weeks, members of the commission's working group, including former ambassadors, military officers and CIA analysts, expressed equally bleak outlooks for Iraq and skepticism that Bush would accept the panel's recommendations.

The report that resulted from that process is a mix of initiatives and conclusions that cover an array of areas, including a long diplomatic section, a security section and the proposed benchmarks for Iraqi leaders. Former secretary of state James A. Baker III, who served under President George H.W. Bush and co-chaired the commission, briefed the current president on its conclusions over lunch yesterday.

Baker and his co-chairman, former congressman Lee H. Hamilton (D-Ind.), and the rest of the 10-member panel met with Bush at the White House at 7 a.m. today to formally hand over the report before heading to Capitol Hill for an 11 a.m. news conference. The report will be released at that time on four Web sites and is being published today as a mass-market paperback by Vintage Books, a division of Random House, under the title "The Iraq Study Group Report: The Way Forward - a New Approach."

Some of its conclusions, such as the need for a phased withdrawal and for shifting the mission of U.S. forces, have been reported over the past few days. Much of the report, though, emphasizes diplomatic options. Advisers said they pushed for dialogue with Iraq's immediate neighbors, Iran and Syria, as a major path toward improving the situation, despite a belief that Bush would reject the recommendation outright because of those countries' ties to terrorism.

Baker, who as secretary of state spent much time working to bring peace to the Middle East after the Persian Gulf War, made a personal point of including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the report and "laying out the importance of why it needs to be dealt with and a strategy to deal with it," said a source familiar with the report. Baker has been close to the Saudi royal family and his ideas may provoke opposition from Israel and its allies.

The benchmarks laid out for Iraqi forces are similar to the goals the Iraqi government recently embraced, the source said. Unlike Bush, though, the commission recommends consequences for not meeting them. "If they don't do it, we ought to reduce the military, economic and political support," the source said.

At the same time, the source said, the U.S. military strategy ought to be implemented regardless of whether Iraqis meet their benchmarks. But the commission warns against turning over control of security to Iraqi forces until reforms are in place.

Clifford May, one of the working group's advisers and a former Republican Party spokesman, was one of two advisers who opposed withdrawal and supported Bush's strategy, but he said he "'as willing to concede from the start that what Bush hoped for is probably not achievable. But it doesn't mean that nothing is achievable."

May said the report includes "at least 70 recommendations," but a timetable for troop withdrawal is not among them. "Instead, it says we have a mission that can be accomplished, and it defines that mission as the need to leave behind a government that can sustain itself," May said.

Much debate in e-mail exchanges among the most outspoken advisers to the study group focused on whether adding troops would help. But most feared that bringing in the large numbers required would break the military, lead to a surge in U.S. deaths and do nothing to better protect civilians.

In the end, the experts did not agree on sending additional forces beyond military advisers for the Iraqi national army. They seemed certain that Bush would reject most of their recommendations and that few could work anyway.

"Very early on, the notion of achieving some sort of victory didn't take," said Chas W. Freeman Jr., a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia. "So if victory is not possible and not feasible, even if you could define it, then what you're left with is to find some way to mitigate defeat."

James Dobbins, a principal U.S. architect of the Afghan reconciliation process, said he supported "an intensified regional dialogue that would be comprehensive and encompass all of Iraq's neighbors." But he and others on the staff said a push for more U.S. engagement with Israel and the Palestinians was rarely discussed beyond a few e-mail exchanges.

"It was kind of assumed by everybody that if the U.S. devoted more attention to it, it would be a good thing in its own right, but we didn't devote much time to that, so if it becomes a recommendation, it would likely come directly from Baker and Hamilton," said Kurtzer, who served as U.S. ambassador to Israel and Egypt.
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Old Dec 6th, 2006, 03:04 PM       
I don't see how reduction could even be a possibility, since the new Congress is already discussing upping troop levels by 20-30k AND pushing another draft bill. Rangel's draft is dirty pool too, since the Dems were using the draft as an anti-Republican scare tactic in '04.
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Old Dec 6th, 2006, 03:50 PM       
I can see the tails between the legs and I'm sure W is in his Escape Pod right now... (Geggy scenario #210)
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Old Dec 6th, 2006, 03:51 PM       
I think he's using it as an anti-war tactic now, scare or otherwise.

It's legislation to make a point, not a law. He hopes to force discussion about the unequal sacrifices taking place in our country, and the degree to which we value whatever the goals of the war are this week.

That being said, I don't think the current crop has the collective legislative sack to make any significant gestures toward any sort of draw down, which I think is inevitably where we'll go eventually.

I think the democratically elected government is going to implode and if it's happens while we are there the only choice we'll have is to get out or take a speciffic side in a civil war that no longer features even a nod toward a unity government. Wether we're there or not, if the governemnt collapses it's going to be a huge disaster.

I don't think we can shore up the government, we have no money left for reconstruction. Are we doing any good, can we still do any good?

The Iraq study group is a step toward realism, but I think it's too little too late, in that I haven't heard anything in it about what we do if events in Iraq outpace us. There's still no serious thinking ahead. If we are not leaving Iraq right now, then we need to be deciding what we'll do if the Maliki Government collpases.
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Old Dec 6th, 2006, 10:29 PM       
I honestly don't know where you are getting your ideas, Max.

Previously, you equated Sadr with Al Quaeda. Now, you are hinting that Maliki is secretly somehow not actually rabidly kissing Sadr's, Iminajihad's and Asshat's respective asses. Sadr is a gang leader warlord that controls slums much like a mobster, protection-racket style. Much of Iran's figurehead's purported affinity for the 12th Imam end-times scenario is just positioning to garner influence in that wack-job's alternate reality. Did you know the 12th Imam was named Mahdi? Sound familiar?

No matter how hard you try, the situation over there is just NOT gonna neatly help make our own fucked up from the ground up political situation make more sense.

Take it for what it is. It's pretty damn fucked up, and it really doesn't have anything to do at all with American politics in any other way than our mess can make their mess worse if we don't get our heads out of our asses and get the job done.

We started it, and we NEED to finish it.
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Old Dec 6th, 2006, 11:31 PM       
Well thank goodness they came to the conclusion a "Palestinian right of return" is essential to resolving the Iraq situation.... in case anyone was hoping their analysis might be well intentioned or something they showed their skirt around page 50.
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Old Dec 7th, 2006, 10:26 AM       
Preech, I don't usually think you are so off base, but I feel as if you must have read somebody elses post. You know, like I did that one time?

I don't think I equated Sadr and Al Quaeda beyond the fact that they both suck and they both kill people. Sadr seems to be all about killing Sunnis. Al Quaeda, I think, prefers killing us, but will happily kill anyone they think is in our boat. I guess I'd equate them this way. They are both against a democratically elected government of unity that would look kindly on the US of A.

"Now, you are hinting that Maliki is secretly somehow not actually rabidly kissing Sadr's, Iminajihad's and Asshat's respective asses."

Was I? Is this about thinking Killing Sadr might be a good idea? Please recall that I'm only in favor of that if our government is still stuck on the idea of making this government... well, real. If sadr were gone, it would give maliki on less puppetmaster.

Personally I think Maliki borders on irrelivant. He's beyond ass kissing, he doesn't exist in an real way.

You say we need to 'get the job done' 'cause it's 'our mess'. I totally agree it's our mess. What's your (as opposed to the many and various out there) deffinition of getting the job done?

'Cause I think if we want to get a stable government there, we got two equally ugly choices.

A.) Re-occupation, and this time do it with a full and brutal multi year commitment. Basically, force unity government down their throats until they get used to it. I don't see how we can possibly do this while maintaining that Iraq has sovereignity or that the Mailiki government is an actual, functioning entity.

B.) Embrace the idea of Iraq as a Shiite country and back them.

If you see another option, let me know.

My prediction? We do neither and are forced to make this same choice or decide to leave in a few months when the government either collapses outright, or such heinous activities come to light that even thin veneer of legitimacy it currently has vanishes.
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Old Dec 7th, 2006, 09:14 PM       
Option A: Find a time machine or wormhole and go back to when the supposedly "liberal" political party in this country abandoned any thoughts of support for Liberal causes in favor of political victory for victory's sake at any cost and show Nancy Pelosi a newsreel from about five years from now.

Option B: Sit around and wait for somebody to come up with an idea that both parties can get behind so we can get this show on the road.

Of course, I'd prefer the former, but one way or another, this effort is going to fail miserably as long as we remain politically divided on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
We target Al Quaeda leaders all the time, and our own army says they are the only functional civil authority in Anbar province. There was an arrest warrant for Al sadr at one point. I would far rather we left than fire another shot. But if we're staying AND we're going to go on shooting, I think shooting in Al Sadr's direction could be appropriatte.
I figure I misread that, but I think I see a much clearer distinction between foreign terrrorists and internal dissidents. Personally, I think Sadr has every right to represent his constituency, though I'd prefer he wasn't such an ass, just as I'd prefer he wasn't in Iran's pocket. His methods may be rougher, but he's no more dangerous than Sistani if a Shiite caliphate stretching across most of the greater mideast is a scary thought to you.

My "victory" would include a secure and Democratic Iraq, even if it's a bit more theocratic than our own government. I'm willing to include a more or less permanent American military presence there, much like as we have in any other country we've ever defeated in war within the last 100 years, but I'm unwilling to include a "Democratic" Iraq existing as a puppet state of Iran.

I'm also unwilling to call it victory if we have to go about whatever we wind up doing by way of including the conflict between Israel and Palestine, at least in the way the Iraq Surrender Group has asserted. That's just the traditional Red-Herring thrown into anything that ever escalates or immortalizes the state of conflict in the region. Bringing that up was just retarded.

The most honest thing Bush has said about this war was before it started. This was going to be and currently is a long, hard road, and we were and are going to have to stick with it. Do you remember him saying this would last beyond his presidency? It most certainly will, if anything we could possibly call victory is going to punctuate the end of it.

My question to you is this: What do you call defeat? Al Quaeda has declared their definition, and it involves you and me both being dead.

This is the War on Terror, and if we quit fighting it before Terror as a method of political influence is totally rendered ineffective, it will necessarily remain as a tool to be wielded by those that would find it expedient to do so. Walking away from Iraq, Afghanistan or the rest of the places where Terror is the order of the day... including the rest of the Mideast, most of Africa, Southeast Asia and most of Central, South and Meso-America... at this point would simply be postponing this conflict until those that prefer the continued existence of Terror as a political tool are better prepared to win this war.

We are on the verge of those folks having nuclear capabilities, and they have proven they are of the opinion they have nothing to lose in their jihad state of mind. It took us using what was at the time our unique ability to immolate whole cities using this technology to beat a similar sort of kamikaze attitude toward the end of WW2. We no longer have the advantage of being the sole owner of such power.

You know how they feel about people of your heritage. Those that are currently beating the drums of "peace," demanding that we consider parlaying with Iran and Syria, will be the first to demand that we comply with the request of a nuclear Iran to hand over all our Jews in exchange for the continued existence of New York or LA. It has happened before, only on a smaller scale. It will happen again if we walk away now, but only after Israel is already pushed into the sea.

This can happen in five years.
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Old Dec 8th, 2006, 10:07 AM       
"My "victory" would include a secure and Democratic Iraq, even if it's a bit more theocratic than our own government. I'm willing to include a more or less permanent American military presence there, much like as we have in any other country we've ever defeated in war within the last 100 years, but I'm unwilling to include a "Democratic" Iraq existing as a puppet state of Iran."
-preech

Laudible goals. How do you think we could achieve them short of re-occupying Iraq officially with a much larger force? If that's what you are advocating, I think that's a defensible position. I also think we won't do it. I don't see any other path toward a stable, even vaguely democratic Iraq. There is no army or police force to 'stand up' that is a 'unity' force. The 'unity' government is currently unable to function without the support of Shiite seperatists and Iranian puppets.

I have a laudible personal goal. I want to be able to fly and have lasrer vision. I recognize these goals are impossible, and so I have recently stopped having intercourse with my microwave in the hopes the radiation will give me super powers. I did it for quite some time because my golas were so laudible, but after I got testicular cancer, I decided not only was it never going to work, it was really hurting me.

" What do you call defeat?"

You need to be more speciffic. Defeat in Iraq? Defeat in the 'war on terror'? Defeat for the human race? I think we are defeated in Iraq, and I think that was prettty much doomed to happen from the moment we went in with no post invasion strategy. I don't see how we can pull out a victory without retaking Iraq and holding it. The British has mixed success with this for a number of years before crashing and burning. We might be able to do better. But short of a new and unashamed colonial atttude, I don't see a path to 'victory'.

'This is the War on Terror, and if we quit fighting it before Terror as a method of political influence is totally rendered ineffective, it will necessarily remain as a tool to be wielded by those that would find it expedient to do so."

I can imagine a world where terror becomes far less politically effective, but I don't think we are on that path. I think so far we have made terror vastly more effective, in that Al Quaeda's immediate goals (as opposed to long term, pie in the sky goals) was the destabilization of the middle east, which we sort of gave them on a big old platter, right before we took our eye off the ball and let them have Afghanistan back. I think the big hammer approach has proved resoundingly ineffective. Now, if you are aupporting a much bigger hammer approach, again, that's an arguable position, but again, I don't think as a country we're going there. The size hammer we're using isn't working. I don't suggest walking away from terror at all. I suggest walking away from vast sectarian conflicts in order to concentreate on terrorist organizations. I suggest using the wealth we are currently using to support a humongous active army to offer carrots and sticks, perform police work, improve intelligence and infiltration and economically discourage any country that tolerates let alone supports terrorism. That approach certainly has it's weaknesses, but I haven't noticed a great deal of success in this approach. I might even support returning some of our army to Afghanistan, where we had something of a foothold back in the day.

I think if we are not willing to work with Iran and Syria (and I agree, that's highly distatsteful, but I also think it might be neccesary.) we need to put our cards on the table and say if you do not comply with our wishes we will destroy you. I'm against that. I don't think it woud work. But I'm absolutely certain that our current strategy of "You have to do what we say, or we'll engage you in a miserable, permanent war of attrition" Back later
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Old Dec 8th, 2006, 09:40 PM       
I've been reading the Study group report since yesterday and it boils down to:


External
1). It is recommended that we pass the ball to neighboring countries and the international community.
2). It is recommended that we let someone else deal with Iran and nuclear things related to Iran.
3). It is recommended that we encourage Israel to stop pissing everyone in the region off.
4). It is recommended that we go back and fix Afghanistan.
5). Our military is rusty and tattered. We should fix this.

Internal
1). It is recommended that we leave Iraq eventually.
2). It is recommended that if things are going well we continue to provide assistance.
3). It is recommended that if things continue to go poorly we quietly pack up and leave.
4). A bunch of social milestones, such as a unified governmental body, that I'm not even going to ennumerate because they are patently ridiculous.
5). It is recommended that we keep in mind that the above list isn't going to happen. Not in a million years.
6). It is recommended that instead of taking the oil ourselves we set up some sort of crazy socialist oil sharing scheme.
7). Economy: Iraq is going to need one of those.
8). It is recommended that we encourage Iraq's diverse and wondrous ethnic, social, and religious groups to stop killing each other. Also Kirkuk is about to blow up. We should probably deal with that.
9). It is recommended we make the Iraqi army an actual army instead of something resembling what was mobilized by the US when it was under the Articles of Confederation.
10). It is recommended we make the Iraqi police an actual police force instead of... actually we're not even sure what the fuck the Iraqi police are doing, but intelligence suggests it is both terrifying and horrendous. We just need to get rid of the whole goddamned thing and start over from scratch.


Half of the list is part of Bush's stay-the-course Vietnamization scheme, the other half is begging other countries to help us out, and the final half has already been ruled out completely by the Administration. So Bush gets to run a couple international conferences, globetrot around Europe to play at that whole diplomacy thing, gets the press to report on his new tone and changing courses and whatnot, and he gets to not change a single goddamned thing.
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Old Dec 8th, 2006, 10:09 PM       
Derrida you have to put the greed factor into your equations...what will I loose? what might happen to me? If I piss of this country is it alright if I ask another country to help me later?...I got beat up alot in school and I'm pretty sure I know what cutting and running is...and knowing how to still put your foot in and retain a secure future in an economy that might boom.
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Old Dec 9th, 2006, 05:24 PM       
My equation? I thought what I posted was the panel's equation?
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Old Dec 10th, 2006, 03:46 AM       
wouldn't it be your equation of the panels equation? as in, a useless assessment of a useless assessment.

it looked like you spent time on that though. i hope you have a whole circuit of message boards you post on to make use of it with. wouldn't want all that work to go to waste in this thread.
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