Mccain continues nosedive toward conformity

[mburbank]

There were moments I actually imagined myself being able to vote for Mccain simply beause he seemed so authentic.

From the moment he decided to whole heartedly endorse W after W's campaign dragged him through the mud (Up to an including an incredibly racist flyer claiming his adopted daughter was black, which she isn't, and that there was something ugy about it) it has seemed to me he is attempting to sell his soul to become the next president.

He is set to deliver the commencement address at Jerry Falwells private university.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

McCain wants to be president.

The two things mentioned above play a part in him doing that. He is going to crucial states, meeting with important Bush strategists and fundraisers, and securing them for his team. Showing support for an increasingly unpopular president shows "just how loyal" he is.

And as far as the Falwell thing goes, as unattractive as that is, it doesn't necessarily mean everything. McCain is arguably the most popular politician in America right now, and everybody wants him to speak at their events. Turning Falwell down would hurt him a lot more than simply going to this meaningless event and saying a few words will.

Again, he wants to be president.

[Preechr]

Don't let the campaigning fool you Max. McCain is as good a guy as a politician can be according to a trusted friend that worked for him and still had to work to convince me. I really do think he might be just what this country needs to make it work better, but I don't think that's the immediate goal of either party. I don't think I want that either, but for different reasons.

Don't count him out yet. If you really do vote independently in 08, he might just be your man... maybe. I don't see the Republicans running him, but it might take another 4 years to get him running on his own or for a 3rd party.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

There is no organized group of Republicans who will have the yay or nay on running McCain. By appealing to the base, setting up support structures in certain states, and getting an IOU from a lot of House Republicans who he may help keep in office, he is essentially structuring the party the way he wants it to look.

He's also a media whore, and gets a lot of free press from shows like the Daily Show, who guys like Brownback and Allen couldn't pay to get on.

I think McCain could do well in the South, depending on time and who else decides to run. He's paying lip service to all the right issues, said he'd sign the South Dakota bill, etc.

This is a pretty good article on some of the behind-the-scenes stuff he's doing.

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

There is no organized group of Republicans who will have the yay or nay on running McCain.

Ok then. We are all just little corks floating on the sea of Democracy, moving about by farting truth and justice that smells like apple pie, comfortable in the knowledge that political campaigns are run in all our best interests and that everything is gonna work out just fine.

I understand that he's working hard to position himself, but I also understand that the press you say fawn all over him are falling all over themselves to portray him as already elected if a Republican has to win. I am also not quite recovered from reading the goofiest thing I think I've ever seen you write...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You said farting.

Tell us then Preechr, what cabal of Republicans will meet in their dark tower and decide that McCain can't win it? What group of Republicans is really thinking about THAT right now, rather than protecting their own asses and interests???

The self-fulfilled prophecy thing might work for McCain. McCain is going to run as a fiscally conservative, tough on security Republican. He'll cut your taxes and bomb the third world. When all else fails, if you are a Republican, this is what you do.

There are a lot of factors to take into account before McCain can be crowned. There are some potential candidates, but none who are as viable as mcCain who are also taking all of the same measures he is (Giuliani is pandering to the South and campaigning in primary districts too, but he stands no chance). I think Sen. Allen will become the second most viable challenger, or even a guy like Gov. Huckabee. Brownback is the sleeper.

Either way, I don't think the GOP is united enough right now to actually stifle McCain. He is poll # gold right now, so he is being embraced by everyone. He's going to hold them to that in 2008.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

or even a guy like Gov. Huckabee. Brownback is the sleeper.

Dear Jesus, I know I don't talk to You often and some rascals may have even told You I don't even believe in You any more, but please PLEASE let Kevin be talking about some Governor of some state who happens to have the same last name as the current Governor of Arkansas...

[KevinTheOmnivore]

He's a governor, and they do better in presidential races.

He also has policy perspectives (such as this cheesy health kick thing he was on) that offer an alternative to the 5 senators who want to run and say the exact same thing.

I didn't say I like him Ziggy, I just threw out the possibility.

[ziggytrix]

He'd make a great candidate for a President that Burbank could hate more than Bush.

[Preechr]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

You said farting.

Yes, and I stand by my assertion.

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Tell us then Preechr, what cabal of Republicans will meet in their dark tower and decide that McCain can't win it?

I'm not saying he can't win. I am saying he won't get to win as a Republican candidate for President, at least I seriously doubt it. What happened in the 99 primaries has no bearing on what might happen next year. All bets are off, and the guy that gets the Republican nomination is gonna be the guy that offers the most to the party, not the guy the party owes the most to.

In that light, McCain may have appeal to voters, but voters don't decide who the Republicans will run. Please explain to me just how the primaries are a democratic process... better yet, explain it to President of the United States Howard Dean. It's a show, not an election. Political parties are run like businesses, not lynch mobs. This is a decision made through a process of focused intelligence with regard to specific goals not necessarily understood by all Republican Party Members. I'm not talking about shadow government, illuminati stuff, but I'm willing to bet the inner circle has a perimeter that stops somewhere before uncle Bob and his buddy Barney chucking back dollar beers at the Republican Party Monthly Mixer over at the Moose Lodge.

Think about it, Kevin... You're a smart guy. Why the hell would the GOP hand the reins over to a man with a solid record of inclusiveness and non-partisanship when the Democrats are on the ropes?

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

What group of Republicans is really thinking about THAT right now, rather than protecting their own asses and interests???

It's funny... I wrote that last bit, then read this part, and now I have nothing to say. I think I have confused myself or something. I think what's screwing me up is that you seem to think the GOP is weak and vulnerable right now for some reason, where I see it as the Republicans are trying to decide on the best way to finish the execution while leaving the smallest mess to clean up.

Maybe that's a slight overstatement on my part, but there's no doubt in my mind that we are as closer to a one-party system than we've seen since Washington took office. It's their ball game to lose at this point, and I don't know that they are going to screw this up. As I said, it was smart decisions that got them this far, not just dumb luck.

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

The self-fulfilled prophecy thing might work for McCain. McCain is going to run as a fiscally conservative, tough on security Republican.

..or independent. I know I haven't given you a chance to respond to my latest round of proving you wrong, but self-fulfilled prophecy? This isn't the ending to a chick-flick, Kev... this is politics. Because it sounds good just doesn't factor into who runs our country.

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

He'll cut your taxes and bomb the third world. When all else fails, if you are a Republican, this is what you do.

But when he doesn't get the nod from his party, what will he do then? How will he run if he runs as an independent? I'd rather see you getting all excited over that prospect than building youself for an obvious disappointment. If he was Governor McCain, we wouldn't be having this argument, but alas he is not, and we are... and I'm right. You watch.

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

There are a lot of factors to take into account before McCain can be crowned.

Oh I bet you know by now I'm aware of that, don't you?

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

There are some potential candidates, but none who are as viable as mcCain who are also taking all of the same measures he is (Giuliani is pandering to the South and campaigning in primary districts too, but he stands no chance). I think Sen. Allen will become the second most viable challenger, or even a guy like Gov. Huckabee. Brownback is the sleeper.

Either way, I don't think the GOP is united enough right now to actually stifle McCain. He is poll # gold right now, so he is being embraced by everyone. He's going to hold them to that in 2008.

Polls mean nothing and any Governor can beat any Senator any day. 28 states have Republican governors right now, but Ahnold doesn't count. Want another Texan? Rick Perry might be freed up next year. How about another Bush? Wouldn't that be fun? I doubt Pataki could pull it off, but that's the four largest states in the union all represented by Republican governors right there... remember I said Ahnold can't run so California was implicit.

How bout Bill Owens? There's a success story for you. First Republican governor in Colorado in 28 years, and he got re-elected. Solid background in the private sector, better than Bush on education, infrastructure and taxes... This dude's on FIRE.

Hell, Haley Barbour or even Ernie Fletcher could whup any Senator you've got. Notice please that I'm throwing out names most folks have to look up. That's who you want to run if you're Karl Rove.

McCain's too dangerous, and Republicans aren't desperate enough, as I said before, to be running Senators anyway. I'm not even sure he could get on the ticket in the number two position if he'd even take that.

There's plenty of good meat out there in the herd of Republican governors, but a lot of them are up for re-election this year, so it's premature to make any guesses. It'll be a governor, though. Bank on it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Preechr

In that light, McCain may have appeal to voters, but voters don't decide who the Republicans will run. Please explain to me just how the primaries are a democratic process... better yet, explain it to President of the United States Howard Dean. It's a show, not an election. Political parties are run like businesses, not lynch mobs. This is a decision made through a process of focused intelligence with regard to specific goals not necessarily understood by all Republican Party Members. I'm not talking about shadow government, illuminati stuff, but I'm willing to bet the inner circle has a perimeter that stops somewhere before uncle Bob and his buddy Barney chucking back dollar beers at the Republican Party Monthly Mixer over at the Moose Lodge.

Ask John McCain if primaries matter. Do you honestly think it was "THE REPUBLICAN PARTY" that axed the McCain campaign in 2000, or was it a crafty and twisted campaign staff???

You either don't see the weakened role the actual party structures have had in politics for the last 20-30 years, or simply refuse to.

Why the hell would the GOP hand the reins over to a man with a solid record of inclusiveness and non-partisanship when the Democrats are on the ropes?

Wow, you've really bought into the John McCain fan club, haven't you?

The guy is a war hawk who wants to balance the budget. He gained recognition for his bi-partisan efforts, particularly the campaign finance reform. But the guy has otherwise voted as a Republican. Check out his interest group rating for his legislative record:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rati...an_id=S0061103

* Fall 2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Conservative Index - The John Birch Society 90 percent in Fall 2004.

* 2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Christian Coalition 83 percent in 2004.

* 2004 On the votes that the Americans for Tax Reform considered to be the most important in 2004, Senator McCain voted their preferred position 90 percent of the time.

* 2005 Senator McCain supported the interests of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce 72 percent in 2005.

* 2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 22 percent in 2003-2004.


I like McCain, but the "independent" McCain has partly been a product of smart messaging and a friendly media.

I think what's screwing me up is that you seem to think the GOP is weak and vulnerable right now for some reason, where I see it as the Republicans are trying to decide on the best way to finish the execution while leaving the smallest mess to clean up.

The GOP is weak right now. People are down n the government, and the party in power is the likely target. If you don't believe me, ask your man Newt. He knows it too.

..or independent. I know I haven't given you a chance to respond to my latest round of proving you wrong, but self-fulfilled prophecy? This isn't the ending to a chick-flick, Kev... this is politics. Because it sounds good just doesn't factor into who runs our country.

Ugh, excuse me, but who has swallowed the "straight talk" kool aid here?

What i meant is that McCain has been picked by many,including press, pollsters, and pundits to be the frontrunner for the nomination....right now. My point was that this can play in McCain's favor, because the more people say it, and the more th press covers it, the less likely it is that he'll get strong opposition for the nod.

And besides, according to you, it's some nefarious backroom dea that decides all of this. If voter don't really matter, than doesn't that play in the favor of the "independent" who is everyone's darling...?

But when he doesn't get the nod from his party, what will he do then? How will he run if he runs as an independent? I'd rather see you getting all excited over that prospect than building youself for an obvious disappointment. If he was Governor McCain, we wouldn't be having this argument, but alas he is not, and we are... and I'm right. You watch.

Who gives this nod, preechr? What party?? The RNC? The GOP governors association? Republicans in Congress? Wealthy Republicans?

You are absolutely off on this one, sorry Preechr. I'm not excited about the prospects of anything. I know what I see happening, and I see McCain positioning himself to be the srongest candidate-- both inmessage, legislative record, staff, and grassroots organization.

Not only have you failed to explain who these "Republicans" are who are out to get McCain, but you've failed to explain why these shady characters would be opposed to McCain as the candidate.

Polls mean nothing and any Governor can beat any Senator any day. 28 states have Republican governors right now, but Ahnold doesn't count. Want another Texan? Rick Perry might be freed up next year. How about another Bush? Wouldn't that be fun? I doubt Pataki could pull it off, but that's the four largest states in the union all represented by Republican governors right there... remember I said Ahnold can't run so California was implicit.

Polls mean enough to all of the Republican candidates who want or have McCain stumping for them in 2006.

I already said senators have a tough time. However, that's generally because they have a long record of legislation to answer for. McCain flaunts and embraces his record, which adds to his "straight talk" persona. McCain came out of a losing primary battle more popular than when he entered. Find a Democrat who could brag about the same.

McCain, in short, has done a good job over the lasy eight years to step beyond his senate position.

How bout Bill Owens? There's a success story for you. First Republican governor in Colorado in 28 years, and he got re-elected. Solid background in the private sector, better than Bush on education, infrastructure and taxes... This dude's on FIRE.

I'm glad you like him. I'm sure a lot of folks who voted for him would agree. McCain would kick his ass today.

Hell, Haley Barbour or even Ernie Fletcher could whup any Senator you've got. Notice please that I'm throwing out names most folks have to look up. That's who you want to run if you're Karl Rove.

See above. As I've already said, it's still early, but McCan may b the exception to the rule. He would beat these gentlemen today, IMO.

McCain's too dangerous, and Republicans aren't desperate enough, as I said before, to be running Senators anyway. I'm not even sure he could get on the ticket in the number two position if he'd even take that.

Good grief. Preechr, what are the issues McCain is too dangerous on? Security? Taxes? Abortion?

And your last comment about him struggling to get a VP slot (were he to accept it) is the sillies thing you've ever said.....EVER!

There's plenty of good meat out there in the herd of Republican governors, but a lot of them are up for re-election this year, so it's premature to make any guesses. It'll be a governor, though. Bank on it.

You may beright, but to dismiss the possibility of a popular senator is silly.

[mburbank]

"McCain wants to be president. "

Yeah, Faust wanted something to, I forget exactly what.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

The way John McCain gets back at George W. Bush is by "saving" the party, and being a better president than Bush.

I will put a wager on this-- If the Republicans lose the House in the fall (which a part of McCain must almost want to see), look for McCain's language to become a little bit more "mavericky". He will offer himself up as a "fresh" kind of Republican with different ideas, one who will help the party atone for its losses.

[mburbank]

I agree that this is the plan for getting back at Bush and becoming President. It's not a bad one, either. But it has all the earmarks of classical tragedy.

Hero makes apparent major personal ethical alterations. Hero brings people into tent to piss out, so they won't piss in. Hero, now surrounded by pissers becomes slowly divorced from who he truly is. Hero comes to rue what his voctory has cost him, but it's too late.

I undrstand what he's doing, but it's a hell of a tightrope.

Also, his appeal to me, since politically I can't agree with him, is his seeming honesty. That's what makes him a person I feel that as a President I would not agree with, but could respect. If he sacrafices that for respectability with the Falwell crowd (and who after that, the Norquist crowd, the Bush dynasty?) ... Well, it's not like I'd vote for him anyway. But I think he counts on the Reagan Democrats. And ore than that, I honestly feel like he's brutally crushing a fundamental part of who he is. He' s chosen party loyalty over what he knows to be true and the possability for victory over honesty.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Just to add to my previous point:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...demonizat.html

"McCain has been such a public figure since his presidential run in 2000 most Americans only know him from his public persona the last six years and his Vietnam POW history almost 40 years ago. His 18-year solidly conservative record in Congress from 1982-2000 was conveniently overlooked by fawning members of the media and is thus not part of the public's current impression of John McCain."

The article also mentions that www.voteview.com ranks him as the third most conservative member of the senate.

[ziggytrix]

Yeah, but that's a traditionally conservative ranking, not a neoconservative one, and I think that's an important distinction. McCain is supposedly old school conservative like the Republicans from way back when most of us were little kids. They may all be asshole Republicans as far as any left-winger is concerned, but moderates like small government, fiscal conservatives better than brash neocons, I think.

The question on my mind is whether McCain is gonna have to suck up to the neoconservative wing of the Republican party or if neoconservatism is at the end of its run.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

"Neo-conservatives" aren't a very large pool of voters. They live in think-tanks, universities, the media, and the White House. They're also the latest Lefty boogey man, but I digress...

When you get solid reviews from Tax reformers, the Birch Society, and the Christian Coalition, you're in a good place with the base. (The Birchers don't necessarily speak for a large constituency either, but they gave him a friggin 90%)

I think the position McCain holds is consistent with whatever desires these neo-cons have. He wants to stay in Iraq, heck, he wants to up troop levels last I heard. He thinks nukes belong on the table while discussing Iran. The guy is a hawk, and he wants to protect the homeland. I think the Bill Kristols of the world will be fine with that.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

They're also the latest Lefty boogey man, but I digress...

How dismissive of you. Neoconservatism isn't some media invention.

Foreign and domestic policy is tremendously influenced by the political bent of a President. The same person who voted for Nixon may have voted for Regan, both Bushes, and may vote for McCain.

But that hardly means Nixon=Bush=McCain.

I don't imagine a McCain budget would look anything like, say, a Cheney budget.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I didn't say neo-cons don't exist, I'm saying the current image they have (Geggy: "OMGS, THE NEO-CONS DRAFTED A PLAN TO BLO W UP THA WORLD!") is a bit of a fabrication.

McCain will want to spend just as much on the war as Cheney or Bush, but he'll look to cut domestic spending in the process. Unlike President Bush, he will use his veto pen.

[Preechr]

Why must you make me constantly repeat myself?

*sigh*

Sometimes it's like I'm talking into a rain-barrel, or to my hound dog... or to kahljorn.

I will hit the bullet points for you, in hopes that I might jog your memory:

Grover Norquist's comment, though reflective of previous Republican STRATEGY, is no longer the goal. A cursory glance at the Bush presidency proves that.

Since the Reagan years, the strategy for Republican dominance has evolved into one of growing government in order to speed up the demise of Democrat socialist programs, eg: the world's biggest new entitlement program that nobody wanted and that just bleeds money: The Medicare Rx Plan.

Dammit... I can't do this quickly or concisely... Why must you so easily accept such obvious contradictions into your arguments?

You make this incredibly difficult sometimes, and I'm very tired, so please excuse my bitchiness. Help me help you. I want you to get this. Really, I do. I left for work at 530 this morning, and I just got home at 930... then I sat down here. For you.

Instead of hinging your argument on my revealing the members of a secret cabal of evil Republicans (that you and I both know do not exist) how bout considering for a moment that Republican politicians all carry certain individual amounts of power at any point. I should not be being forced to spell this out for you. That power comes from many places... guys like DeLay add weight to their opinions because they are serious cash cows. Guys like Frist are listened to because of his position in the party.

It's not a Skull and Bones meeting, and you know that's not what I'm saying... so why must you muddy the waters? I'm trying to discuss this, and you're flinging crap.

One second you say McCain's painted as more bi-partisan than he really is because the media loves him, but the next you say he's a viable candidate because the media says so...

I ask you to explain to me how primaries are a Democratic process, and you come back asking why I don't think votes count for nothing, as if the actual elections are rigged...

You know how primaries are decided. You know that so much influence is exerted during those state by state dog and pony shows by EVERYONE that has any sort of stake in the game that the primaries are just big pep-rallies used by the parties to warm the electorate up for the real elections. Primaries are NOT part of the electoral process. The voting IN THE PRIMARIES is for show.

That does not mean that secret groups of half-devils are cronying it up right now, deciding for their own twisted reasons who is gonna get to run in 08. Nobody's hulking over a cauldron, and there's nothing under your bed but that Newsweek and that sad little pile of tissue.

During the circus in 99, Bush's team could have been punished by the party for their actions toward McCain, but they weren't. That lack of support was a sign of greater support among the party for Bush. That's the simplest example I can give you. It's politics.

Notice, please: I am leaving my characteristic barbs out of this in hopes you'll be less spewey with your response. I was only trying to explain something to you, but colorfully. I didn't mean to get you all fired up, making you resort to such extreme flailings of non-logic.

Wait... maybe that was a barb... sorry...

Well, I guess that part about the tissue was also... well, sorry again...

Moving on... The "Neo-Con Agenda," remember, stems from the realizations afforded traditional LIBERALS that had been "mugged by reality." Socialism does not actually help those it was thought to help... it only hurts them more. Neo-Cons switched sides because they liberaled themselves conservative. They decided to teach that guy to fish instead of catching fish for him. They are still classically liberal in that their motivations are to help the little guy, but their methods have changed.

Traditional Republicans also had a realization. By fighting the Democrats tooth and nail over every little detail of their socialist projects and insisting on limitations every step of the way, they were only keeping those projects alive longer than if they had just welcomed the bad ideas and let them die off naturally. Had it not been for Republicans trying so hard to kill it, we wouldn't be looking at another 50 years of Social Security gasping out it's dying breaths.

Competition, if you recall, makes things stronger. Had they let the Democrats have their way with the Welfare State they were building, it would have already failed utterly and there would be nothing left to fight against.

Republicans have launched a two pronged attack that has proven to be wildly successful. First, they inserted the phrase "tax-relief" into the American lexicon, and have been able to hack and slash more and more citizens off the tax roles every year since with tax cuts and by supporting nonsense like EIC credits. Second, they have become adept at both spending the pork before the Democrats can get their hands on it, while simultaneously directing what money is being spent on social programs into the most inefficient areas.

We went from "Just Say No" to the "War on Drugs." Nancy Reagan's idea was FREE, where the Drug War accomplishes less while sucking money out of the budget to such a degree that it's true cost is now a well-hidden secret. Remember when the Republicans were rallying behind the idea of closing the doors on the Department of Education? Right after that was when they switched gears, and now you can't close the doors on that building for the mounds of cash piled on the threshold and our kids are dumber than ever.

Instead of shrinking government to the size it could be drowned in a bathtub, they are attempting to explode it. People don't vote against something that might not fall apart for another 50 years, so they are speeding up the death process. People will vote for conservative solutions only after the socialist programs have failed.

This is so off topic now... We should continue this in Ms. Mod's "I hate politics" thread or something.

Anyhoo, the Republican plan is working. Apply what I'm saying to the seeming inconsistancies apparent in the Bush Administration's domestic decisions, and it really does all make sudden sense, doesn't it? Party platform statements are meaningless in the short game. No vetos and all the pork... Madicare Rx... Hell, even Bush's guest worker program, though too liberal looking to easily pass muster with Republican voters, is designed to kill free healthcare availability in hospitals and pretty much every other welfare-type program we have still struggling along in this country. It all fits with the plan, man...

It's not evil, it's just effective political strategy. As a libertarian, I fully support it. The thing I am most scared of is that I see a lot of Republicans that are becoming a bit too drunk on spending, and I worry that they might stop short of the plan's completion. I have stated previously that we are headed into a Tory style government re-labeled "compassionate conservatism." That's why I've said the Republicans are becoming Democrats and the Democrats are becoming Communists. Everything is shifting to the left.

McCain is not on the Republican bandwagon. He has rejected the plans tactics and is resolutely... as you have pointed out, linked and hammered home... continued to vote in line with the platform.

Please tell me this is making sense to you.

Republicans run Governors, not Senators. They will eventually run a Governor, not McCain.

McCain is a 1970's Republican, and the party has moved on. They will not run him for President because he does not support their long-term plan for returning conservative principles to American government by abandoning them completely in the short-term.

McCain is a popular guy because the left understands his traditional methods represent their last hope in light of the current WiLdLy SUCCESSFUL Republican strategy, and he is doing a great job of positioning himself as a lead candidate. He is starting WAY too early, which is obviously because he needs to. He knows the GOP can't start nailing down their list of possibles until after the mid-term elections because he knows they will pick among Governors.

That being said, I am not implying that McCain has evil in his heart. He believes in conservative principles and he will ive and die by his beliefs. I respect him for that. He has integrity, and the world of politics is sorely lacking in that. I wish him well in his failure, and I hope the Republicans can avoid steering the ship into those big-ass, mean looking rocks just ahead.

Just in case you missed it when I said it RIGHT UP THERE: There is a very good reason McCain is such a darling of the portion of the media that's biased to the left. That reason is that were he to take a lead role in the GOP, the current Republican final solution plan will fail and everything will go back to normal for the Democrats... at least that is the hope. He is not the only Republican politician that is sticking to his guns, but 1999 brought him into the spotlight and he's really good at staying there.

Look at your lists and your stats, but also look at the larger picture. This is not what anybody would have expected a Republican run government to look like, is it? The massive contradictions you see between the GOP platform and the results of the past 5 years should not be ignored because they are proof that I am right.

It's very hard to ignore the effects of the WOT in interpreting what's happening, and I will admit to a crazy time when I considered that the war might actually have been cooked up in an effort to waste money... but reason and my belief in the inherent goodness of men prevailed and I paddled my logic canoe back toward more peaceful water.

The common perception is that the Bush Administratin has done Ok on the WOT to the detriment of domestic policy, but I believe "the plan" is Bush's domestic policy, and I think his administration's done an amazing job of being successful on both ends. I am not even halfway tempted to vote Republican, as I am also a man of principle, but I can smile when I throw my vote away in an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of way.

I am going to go to bed now, but first I am gonna pray that I don't have to rephrase this to you another 20 times before either you get it or I give up entirely.

Did I mention that I'm also sick? I have been sick for two weeks, and I've been working like a dog, traveling my ass off, buring my candles at both ends and in the middle, but STILL I stay up till midnight re-typing my previously explained postions to you in yet another of many, many efforts to explain to you, my dear friend, how politics works. I am obviously supremely dedicated to this cause.

See, I live in the Confederacy and you live in the Nation's Capital, you are a Democrat and I am... well, an economic conservative anyway... yet somehow I (the Redneck) am the one that is able to conjure up the NUANCED bigger picture where you (the Yankee) seem to struggle to advance your political views much past the drivel one might expect to discover in any given Tuesday's USA Today Lifestyle section...

Why do you think that is?

Better question: If you are only going to use these powers for the forces of evil, why am I working so hard to tutor you in the ways of the world?

Maybe it's just too much NyQuil...

Nighty night, Kevvy Wevvy.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

You didn't really say much, but I'll respond to it later....

[mburbank]

Preech, when you do bullet points could you do less typing? My poor old eyes hurt. Plus I can't understand as much things as I used to do.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Okay, time to wade through!

Originally Posted by Preechr

Instead of hinging your argument on my revealing the members of a secret cabal of evil Republicans (that you and I both know do not exist) how bout considering for a moment that Republican politicians all carry certain individual amounts of power at any point. I should not be being forced to spell this out for you.....That power comes from many places... guys like DeLay add weight to their opinions because they are serious cash cows. Guys like Frist are listened to because of his position in the party.

Great point. You're right, elected politicians do carry clout. Rather than wasting my time and listing it out for you, let's work with the names you provided.

DeLay, Frist, and let's even throw President Bush's name in there. Out of the three, which one will be making appearances, speaking in GOP districts, and raising money for Republicans more than John McCain?? Who have long-shot candidates in spots like Seattle invited? Who did Gov. Schwarzenegger call to help raise $2.5 million? Who is Rep. Wilson running in her Ads. to help her in her tough fight in NM-1???

When Republicans are in trouble, and need to stress their "independence" they call John McCain. When they want to raise money, they call John McCain. Guys like DeLay could raise their fair share, but old Tommy has been distracted lately. Neither of the gentlemen you mentioned (not even the president for good measure) draws the kind of water that Sen. McCain does.

It's not a Skull and Bones meeting, and you know that's not what I'm saying... so why must you muddy the waters? I'm trying to discuss this, and you're flinging crap.

You keep implying that some group of Republicans will eventually "make the call" on McCain, which will crush his state-by-state infrastructure, force the resignation of top Bush consultants and fundraisers from his team, kill his popularity, and annoint some TBD governor as the likely candidate.

I'd like a little bit more substance than that, sorry.

One second you say McCain's painted as more bi-partisan than he really is because the media loves him, but the next you say he's a viable candidate because the media says so...

Politics is about saying the same thing right, and saying it a million times. That's messaging, that's Tony Schwartz's responsive chord. Remember, I'm drawn to this for twisted personal reasons, I know!

Other GOP candidates, say Romney, Allen, Newt, Rudy, or a TBD governor will enter the race with an instant disadvantage. McCain gets a LOT of unearned media, the kind of media guys like them will have to budget for and spend for. That's a calculation that's made when you run for office. Thus, good candidates might decide to sit it out now, and wait 4-8 years. This happens all of the time, and that's what I meant by the media advantage McCain has.

You know how primaries are decided. You know that so much influence is exerted during those state by state dog and pony shows by EVERYONE that has any sort of stake in the game that the primaries are just big pep-rallies used by the parties to warm the electorate up for the real elections. Primaries are NOT part of the electoral process. The voting IN THE PRIMARIES is for show.

They draw people who are guaranteed to vote on election day. They draw party loyalists. They draw die-hard supporeters of the candidates. They generally draw people, statistically anyway, who are more informed on the issues, more informed on the candidates, and more likely to vote every year.

That's ok by me. Let the folks who stay home watch American Idol and allow the people who care to decide. God bless America.

During the circus in 99, Bush's team could have been punished by the party for their actions toward McCain, but they weren't. That lack of support was a sign of greater support among the party for Bush. That's the simplest example I can give you. It's politics.

They were in the middle of what went down as one of the closest and most contentious presidential elections in our nation's history. I guarantee you there WERE people who wanted to burn Bush for it, but to do so would only hurt him, and yes, the GOP was more concerned with the supposed greater good of taking back the White House (eight years of the great satan Clinton, remember?). Once Bush won, he was the president. Even McCain kept quiet about it. Do you think he did it because he's so humble and likes Bush? Come on....it's politics!

Instead of shrinking government to the size it could be drowned in a bathtub, they are attempting to explode it. People don't vote against something that might not fall apart for another 50 years, so they are speeding up the death process. People will vote for conservative solutions only after the socialist programs have failed.

While your illuminati theory may very well be true, it won't matter much in elections. It doesn't matter when a lot of these Republicans may lose their seats.

McCain will run as a tax cutting fiscal conservative. Let's not get into what he'll actually have to do once he's president, because that rarely has to do with elections. McCain will bend to the power your welfare state just like everyone else does, you'll see.

Don't worry, the plan is still safe, my lord!

McCain is not on the Republican bandwagon. He has rejected the plans tactics and is resolutely... as you have pointed out, linked and hammered home... continued to vote in line with the platform.

The platform is pretty appealing to the base, and as it turns out, plays kind of well with the general public. McCain will lose his liberal appeal, partly b/c the Left is now realizing the monster they've made. McCain will cleverly let the media do his base work for him.....

Republicans run Governors, not Senators. They will eventually run a Governor, not McCain.

AND WHICH MEMBERS OF THE KNOW-NOTHING PARTY WILL MAKE THIS DECISION, SIR!!?

McCain is a 1970's Republican, and the party has moved on. They will not run him for President because he does not support their long-term plan for returning conservative principles to American government by abandoning them completely in the short-term.

This plan can't be stated publicly. Nobody who walks around with an American flag and their "I'm a conservative!" badge would agree to this. So, Republicans are still forced to run like McCain and govern like Bush. Bottom Line.

So, since the message will STILL have to be based around tough security, fiscal responsibility, and (maybe) some Christianly stuff, then it would HAVE to be a backroom, nefarious deal that undercuts McCain....something the American voters are unaware of.

So I ask you again....who makes this decision???

btw, parties go through realignments. Ideologies change. I'm sure you know this, but you seem to think that just because a couple of Republicans think one way it'll stay that way indefinitely.

McCain is a popular guy because the left understands his traditional methods represent their last hope in light of the current WiLdLy SUCCESSFUL Republican strategy, and he is doing a great job of positioning himself as a lead candidate. He is starting WAY too early, which is obviously because he needs to. He knows the GOP can't start nailing down their list of possibles until after the mid-term elections because he knows they will pick among Governors.

Good grief. You give the Democrats far more credit than any Democrat ever would.

Okay, so let's ctach up here. There are now TWO nefarious conspiracies in Washington, each being kept very secret and maintained by the party committees, the members of Congress, and the state parties. The Republicans talk about conservatism but really want liberalism, and the Democrats talk about moderate conservatism because they really don't want liberalism because they know it'll result in liberalism which will ultimately result in super conservatism.

Preech, you should go talk to some folks at the DNC. Go out to the bar with them. If such a complcit plan truly exists, they are totally unaware of it.

Just in case you missed it when I said it RIGHT UP THERE: There is a very good reason McCain is such a darling of the portion of the media that's biased to the left. That reason is that were he to take a lead role in the GOP, the current Republican final solution plan will fail and everything will go back to normal for the Democrats... at least that is the hope. He is not the only Republican politician that is sticking to his guns, but 1999 brought him into the spotlight and he's really good at staying there.

Good grief. Preechr. I mean, good God.

Preech, McCain is popular with the media b/c he wasn't Bush, he addressed popular issues with the Left like campaign finance reform, and through VERY VERY good messaging and campaigning he established himself as an "independent". It is NOT because the Left is on o the secret plot of the Republican Masons.....

Look at your lists and your stats, but also look at the larger picture. This is not what anybody would have expected a Republican run government to look like, is it? The massive contradictions you see between the GOP platform and the results of the past 5 years should not be ignored because they are proof that I am right.

No, they are proof that you have no idea what people want, or how what they say and want can conflict.

People talk a good game, but they like their entitlements. Elected officials learn this the hard ay, and thus get burned! Every official wants to bring back to their district, and if everyone is doing this, the spending goes wild!

I hope you feel better. I mean the cold, and, uh, the "other" stuff too.

[Preechr]

Maybe if you'd read more than every other paragraph I waste on you, your comprehension would be higher.

Maybe you are just intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying, but I'm starting to doubt that.

You eventually did grasp the Republican strategy I was trying to outline, but that's about it.

The first section of your response was from outer space. You quoted a part of me trying to explain to you that instead of a coven of evil Republicans making illuminati-like decisions in back rooms that all Republican politicians use whatever power and sway they can bring to bear in order to fashion a communal decision.

I feel I made that very clear, and yet you insist on ignoring what I'm saying, preferring instead to play with your strawmen.

So, in the world of your silly little argument, the only option to McCain being a guaranteed nominee is that the world is run by a group of evil Republicans that I refuse to name for you. Any other explanation that I try to provide for you seems to get mutated into that, so why bother again?

Tell you what: try reading what I wrote all the way through, slowly, THEN responding.

"DeLay, Frist, and let's even throw President Bush's name in there. Out of the three, which one will be making appearances, speaking in GOP districts, and raising money for Republicans more than John McCain?? Who have long-shot candidates in spots like Seattle invited? Who did Gov. Schwarzenegger call to help raise $2.5 million? Who is Rep. Wilson running in her Ads. to help her in her tough fight in NM-1???"

This was your response? I wasn't talking about McCain. I wasn't comparing the men I mentioned to him. I was explaining groupthink to you, and you seem to have the attention span of an autistic hummingbird on fire, so you run right off into some other subject.

I have acknowledged McCain's efforts to position himself. How is your statement here appropriate or on topic? You are the mod here, aren't you supposed to know how to discuss things?

"When Republicans are in trouble, and need to stress their "independence" they call John McCain. When they want to raise money, they call John McCain. Guys like DeLay could raise their fair share, but old Tommy has been distracted lately. Neither of the gentlemen you mentioned (not even the president for good measure) draws the kind of water that Sen. McCain does. "

Again, so? I was giving you easy to understand examples of powerful men that help to make decisions for the party. I didn't mention McCain, but wasn't it obvious that he is also a Republican, and for the reasons you mentioned he also has power in the party? Yes, Bush is also a party member and he also has power.

Thanks for helping me by providing a few more examples. Now I understand that you can grasp my point, so why don't you try?

"You keep implying that some group of Republicans will eventually "make the call" on McCain, which will crush his state-by-state infrastructure, force the resignation of top Bush consultants and fundraisers from his team, kill his popularity, and annoint some TBD governor as the likely candidate.

I'd like a little bit more substance than that, sorry."

I'm not implying anything, Kevin. I tried my level best to methodically explain to you that McCain is not inline with the party's current strategic direction, and I explained to you what that direction is. I am not arguing with you that McCain is a good Republican. I am not saying he's bad, just that his preferred strategy is not the same as that of the larger party at this time.

Why the fuck is this so hard to grasp for you? If you get it, but just disagree, then by all means say so so I can quit rephrasing the same things over and over to you.

You can have a differnet opinion of the future than I have and vis a vis. It's seems that you are trying to get me to prove concretely who will win the SuperBowl next year, and I can't do that any better than you or anyone else.

"Other GOP candidates, say Romney, Allen, Newt, Rudy, or a TBD governor will enter the race with an instant disadvantage. McCain gets a LOT of unearned media, the kind of media guys like them will have to budget for and spend for. That's a calculation that's made when you run for office. Thus, good candidates might decide to sit it out now, and wait 4-8 years. This happens all of the time, and that's what I meant by the media advantage McCain has."

If that was the only advantage a potential candidate could have, I'd agree with your projections, but it's not. If it were, Dean would have been running against Bush in 04. What I am trying to explain to you is that McCain's media advantage, though considerable, does not guarantee him a spot on the ticket. Yes, the base likes him well enough, but if the party doesn't agree with his strategic view, he might as well try to use his media advantage to get the nomination from the Democratic Party.

"They draw people who are guaranteed to vote on election day. They draw party loyalists. They draw die-hard supporeters of the candidates. They generally draw people, statistically anyway, who are more informed on the issues, more informed on the candidates, and more likely to vote every year.

That's ok by me. Let the folks who stay home watch American Idol and allow the people who care to decide. God bless America."

Again, how is that in any way relevant to the comment to which you were responding? I wasn't even talking about who votes in primaries. I was talking about why the primary voting is not the same thing as the actual voting in the elections.

They do not tally all the votes and nominate the winner. Basically, whichever candidate puts on the best show wins. They have to prove their skills at influencing and manipulating the media, the pollsters, the voters, the voting blocks, the state reps, the lobbies, the pacs, the Governors, each other, the legislature and it's members... EVERYBODY. The individual candidates do not bring their own message into the fray, they are presenting the message of their party.

Now, while McCain's message will resonate with the Republican base, his methods do not jibe with the methods the party has been employing successfully so recently. Why would the other also powerful and influential members of the party accept his leadership if it does not match their current direction?

Again, if you disagree with me on their direction (the plan) then kindly explain to me what you believe their strategic vision to be? You seem to think it's all just random reactions to random events. Maybe the Republican politicians just forgot what they were supposed to be voting for and against. Maybe they were just kidding or high when they wrote out the platform. Oh, wait.. Maybe their just corrupt! Yeah! That must be it.

I say their actions can be explained logically, and that logic leads to a cohesive plan of attack against the Democratic Party that is working. This is not the only obvious strategery the Bush Administration has employed, but it is the one we are discussing.

"They were in the middle of what went down as one of the closest and most contentious presidential elections in our nation's history. I guarantee you there WERE people who wanted to burn Bush for it, but to do so would only hurt him, and yes, the GOP was more concerned with the supposed greater good of taking back the White House (eight years of the great satan Clinton, remember?). Once Bush won, he was the president. Even McCain kept quiet about it. Do you think he did it because he's so humble and likes Bush? Come on....it's politics!"

No, he decided to wait for his turn to come back around. He has continued to vote on his principles, but if you ever listen to the conservative talk shows or read the GOP biased opinion pieces about McCain, he is considered a spoiler rather than a leader of the party.

Please note, as well, you just said that the GOP favored Bush in order to regain the White House. Is this where I'm supposed to start harangueing you to give me the names of the supposed black robes cultists that made this evil decision while scrying through their unholy crystals in their hollowed out volcano?

"McCain will bend to the power your welfare state just like everyone else does, you'll see."

I said he will fight it using traditional Republican methods, not that he would bend to it. The GOP has adopted new methods with which McCain disagrees.

I also said that the plan is not evil. It is just strategy.

"McCain will run as a tax cutting fiscal conservative. Let's not get into what he'll actually have to do once he's president, because that rarely has to do with elections."

Wow. I didn't realize he'd already run and won.

"The platform is pretty appealing to the base, and as it turns out, plays kind of well with the general public. McCain will lose his liberal appeal, partly b/c the Left is now realizing the monster they've made. McCain will cleverly let the media do his base work for him..."

Ok, well at least now you're trying to play along. I understand your admiration for McCain. I disagree with you on your projections, as I have explained in detail, but I'm willing to let you be proven wrong.

"This plan can't be stated publicly. Nobody who walks around with an American flag and their "I'm a conservative!" badge would agree to this. So, Republicans are still forced to run like McCain and govern like Bush. Bottom Line."

But McCain, as you so astutely pointed out, has a voting record that is staunchly conservative unlike Bush's executive record or the result's produced by the larger Republican run government.

A McCain Administration would be much different than Bush's, though Max would still hate him. I really do respect the guy for his integrity, and I really do think that would shine through in his presidency. I just don't think he's going to get the chance because his party won't support him.

"So, since the message will STILL have to be based around tough security, fiscal responsibility, and (maybe) some Christianly stuff, then it would HAVE to be a backroom, nefarious deal that undercuts McCain....something the American voters are unaware of.

So I ask you again....who makes this decision???

btw, parties go through realignments. Ideologies change. I'm sure you know this, but you seem to think that just because a couple of Republicans think one way it'll stay that way indefinitely."

McCain is not bullet-proof, and without the full support of his party, he can be taken out just like any other politician. Just like he was in 99, or just like guys like Rove and Carville have done to sooo many other generally decent guys.

If he is thrown under the bus, no matter who he has allied with, nobody is going to jump in after him. He has probably prepared himself well for the upcoming smear tactics and other BS he'll have to face from both parties, but he will definitely have to face it.

Maybe you are right. Maybe the GOP will rally around him and everything will go off without a hitch. I don't see why you are so hung up on him, honestly. It's obvious by now that I see it as just as much a no-brainer in the other direction, but thanks for forcing me to go into such detail as to why.

I'd ask you to do the same for your position, but I already did and all I got was more of the same questions about the evil centaurs.

"Good grief. You give the Democrats far more credit than any Democrat ever would.

Okay, so let's ctach up here. There are now TWO nefarious conspiracies in Washington, each being kept very secret and maintained by the party committees, the members of Congress, and the state parties. The Republicans talk about conservatism but really want liberalism, and the Democrats talk about moderate conservatism because they really don't want liberalism because they know it'll result in liberalism which will ultimately result in super conservatism.

Preech, you should go talk to some folks at the DNC. Go out to the bar with them. If such a complcit plan truly exists, they are totally unaware of it."

It's tactics, Kev. Strategy. It's not conspiracy. It's not nefarious. The end result of the Republican plan as I have outlined it will be a distinctly Republican political victory resulting in a much more conservative America. I have also explained why such a strategy is necessary and why the more direct methods fail.

I have asked you to explain what your version of the GOP strategy is, and you have yet to do that. Try. Tell me about a strategy that follows strict adherence to the GOP platform and yet allows for the observable events of the Bush Administration, making it all make sense. Without an underlying structure, one could only witness a jumble of contradictions that would lead to the conclusion that the only way this party could be leading the country with such a mandate is that we are a nation of retards being led by monkeys.

Take the examples that I have given you... hell, add to them if you wish... and tell me how else all that makes sense in a GOP dominated government.

"People talk a good game, but they like their entitlements. Elected officials learn this the hard ay, and thus get burned! Every official wants to bring back to their district, and if everyone is doing this, the spending goes wild!"

And then the welfare state eventually collapses under it's own weight. As long as Republicans would fight the growth of the entitlement structure, they were restraining it's growth... keeping it sustainable. They were always easy to paint as the bad guys that love to take food from the mouths of babies and cancel Grandma's checks. They learned to fight fire with fire.

This is tiring. I know you are smart enough to understand all this. All I ask is that you genuinely try. You are actually starting to prove me right by arguing with me. Keep doing that. I'll catch up with later on tonight.

[ziggytrix]

Does brevity piss you off or what?