Fatwa declared

[El Blanco]

Against bin Laden?

I guess so.

Spanish Muslims Issue Fatwa Against Bin Laden

Fri Mar 11, 8:54 AM ET

Add to My Yahoo! Top Stories - Reuters

By Emma Ross-Thomas

MADRID (Reuters) - Spain's leading Islamic body has issued a religious order declaring Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) to have forsaken Islam by backing attacks such as the Madrid train bombings a year ago.



The Islamic Commission of Spain timed its "fatwa" for Friday to coincide with the first anniversary of last year's attacks, which killed 191 people and were claimed in the name of al Qaeda in Europe.

The commission's secretary general Mansur Escudero said the fatwa had moral, rather than legal weight and would serve as a guide for Muslims.

"We declare ... that Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization, responsible for the horrendous crimes against innocent people who were despicably murdered in the March 11 terrorist attack in Madrid, are outside the parameters of Islam," the commission said.

The commission said the Koran barred Muslims from committing crimes against innocent people.

The commission is the top Islamic body in Spain. Its leaders are elected by an assembly and represent the Muslim community in talks with the Spanish government.

Most of the 42 suspects held in connection with the investigation are of Moroccan origin whom investigators say were committed to holy war against the West.

ISLAM DOES NOT JUSTIFY TERRORISM

"The terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization ... which result in the death of civilians, such as women and children ... are totally prohibited and are the object of strong condemnation within Islam," it said in a statement citing extensively from religious texts.

The commission issued its fatwa as Spaniards paid tribute to the passengers killed on four Madrid commuter trains a year ago.

At Madrid's main mosque, worshippers observed a minute's silence before Friday prayers, and Morocco's King Mohammed attended a wreath-laying ceremony in honor of the victims.

At least half a million Muslims live in Spain and many have felt increased isolation as a result of the March 11 bombings.

"After March 11, all Muslims have become suspect," Mohammed El Afifi, a spokesman for Madrid's biggest mosque, said recently.

Escudero told Reuters by telephone: "Any group that invokes Islam to justify terrorist attacks places itself outside of Islam."

Bin Laden's claim to recover al Andalus -- the Arabic term for Spain during the nearly 800 years parts of the country were under Moorish rule -- "totally contradict God's will," the commission said.

-----------------------------


So, is this a good thing? Does this signify that moderate Muslims are standing up and reminding people that Islam is supposed to be about peace? Except for the whole hunting down bin Laden thing.

And will the Islamic Comission of Spain see the end of the month?

[ziggytrix]

Fatwa just means "a legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar." It doesn't mean "order to hunt down." And yes, it is ALWAYS good when people stand up for peace and protecting the innocent. Why would you even ask that?

[El Blanco]

I've learned to not take things for granted.

A few years ago, I would have never believed people outside of NK would claim to be willing to defend Kim Jong Il's regime to the death. A few forums have changed my mind.

[Spectre X]

Wooo Muslims!

Three cheers for Muslims!

Hip hip

hooray

hip hip

hooray

hip hip

hooray.


This just makes me kinda giddy for some reason.

[ziggytrix]

What does that have to do with whether or not its good that Muslims are saying terrorism is not an Islamic value?

I really just don't see the point of your question.

[El Blanco]

It was an example of something I took for granted. I figured everyone agreed that KJI was a dictator and was harming his people and the world would be a better place without him. Imagine my surprise the first few times.

Its entirely possible someone here will be outraged over this fatwa news. They may have a legitimate reason for that. I think it s a good thing, but again, I won't take it for granted.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

I really just don't see the point of your question.

And I don't understand how you can't see the relevance in him raising the question. Bin Laden is still revered in many parts of the Middle East, sexism and suppression of free thought still seem to rule the day throughout much of the religion. We are accustomed to dealing with the sort of Islam that flys planes into towers, blows up innocent people, beheads aid workers, and assassinates documentarians who produce critical pieces on Islamic treatment of women.

Look, I'm certainly no expert on Islam. Perhaps someone like ABC could enlighten us on the signifigance of this public gesture. But it seems refreshing to me to see moderate voices stand up tall and denounce the more radical fringe. I think it's a good question, and yes, it's a good thing.

[ziggytrix]

I only see the relevance of the question if someone here has some convuluted logic as to why this would be a BAD thing.

If you have a scenario in which the promotion of peace and the condemnation of violence against innocents is a bad thing, please share it.

[El Blanco]

Well, there was this dude named Ghandi a while back. That whole peace and condemn violence thing didn't work too well for him.

[ziggytrix]

Yeah like anyone killed in peaceful protest. Great leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr. or even Jesus.

Stupid peaceniks deserve to be killed. Not like they can convince EVERYONE to stop acting like animals, who do they think they are, anyway! Am I right, Blanco?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

I only see the relevance of the question if someone here has some convuluted logic as to why this would be a BAD thing.

Okay, he said this:

"So, is this a good thing? Does this signify that moderate Muslims are standing up and reminding people that Islam is supposed to be about peace?"

We're talking about the same question here, right? I think, again, it's fair for Islamic amateurs such as ourselves to ask that question. Like I said, it seems like a good thing, but could it create a backlash against moderate Islam? Will innocent people get kidnapped and beheaded in Spain due to this position? I think you could ask, well, is this news perhaps even superfluous....? I don't know, do you?

If you have a scenario in which the promotion of peace and the condemnation of violence against innocents is a bad thing, please share it.

You know he wasn't asking us whether or not the protection of the innocent is a good thing. Sheesh.

[El Blanco]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Yeah like anyone killed in peaceful protest. Great leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr. or even Jesus.

Stupid peaceniks deserve to be killed. Not like they can convince EVERYONE to stop acting like animals, who do they think they are, anyway! Am I right, Blanco?

I didn't mean I thought they were bad people. Someone obviously did though.

Ghandi and Malcolm X were killed by their own for preaching peace. Jesus was set up by His own.

You honestly don't think this council is putting itself at risk making a big declaration like this?

[Big Papa Goat]

Haven't the moderate spanish muslims already tacitly expressed opposition to Bin Laden and other extremists by their lack of support or acknowlegement of his activities and fatwas? I mean, is it really a surprise to anyone that moderate muslims in Spain or other Western countries oppose Islamic terrorism?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

I think Spain holds a slightly more signifigant role in the muslim world than simply being "another western nation."

But I wasn't aware that the Spanish muslims had already denounced Bin Laden. Thanks for the contribution!

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Big Papa Goat

I mean, is it really a surprise to anyone that moderate muslims in Spain or other Western countries oppose Islamic terrorism?

okay, so I had a bit to drink tonight, so I needed to re-read your thing here. What about France? Heck, what about here in America? I personally know a couple muslims who rationalized the fuck out of 9/11. I don't think you should assume that muslims simply being in a "western" nation makes them moderate....

[El Blanco]

I personally know a couple muslims who rationalized the fuck out of 9/11.

I know a bunch of stupid white kids who did it too.

And, BPG, this goes beyond a tactful denial. This is a great big public, "NO". I'm not sure what kind of weight these clerics hold world wide, but they at the very least are going to be well known.

[Abcdxxxx]

A Fatwa is just a religious decree.

On the surface this is good, even if it's a few years late. These condemnations, along with news that a female will lead prayers in a mosque, are good signs. They're accusing Bin Laden of being a secular apostate. That's a plus.

Then again, It's also a little it ridiculous. The Saudi's issued a Fatwa against terrorism in 2003, right before the Embassy got hit in Bagdahd. Fatwas are a kangaroo court, and Spain has no Sharia status in civil law. Madrid Sunni's ex-communicating Saudi wahhabists? Um. Then there's the rest of the Fatwa text, which gives a hint that their real desire is to forbid Westerners from connecting Islam to terrorism forbidding anyone from calling Bin Laden a Muslim. Then it ends with a pat on the back to Spain for not responding to it's terror hit.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Fatwas are a kangaroo court, and Spain has no Sharia status in civil law. Madrid Sunni's ex-communicating Saudi wahhabists? Um.

But isn't there some degree of signifigance in this coming from Spain? I mean, wasn't there something to the Madrid attack last year? Is there any kind of opinion within the muslim world that Spain is sort of the territory that got taken from them by the rotten infidels....?

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Okay, he said this:

"So, is this a good thing? Does this signify that moderate Muslims are standing up and reminding people that Islam is supposed to be about peace?"

We're talking about the same question here, right?

Yes, and the answers are "yes" and "yes" no hesistation, no equivocation. Unless you are opposed to peace. Unless you think killing and violence are necessary conditions of humanity.

Sure these people are sticking their necks out by doing this, but EVERY peacemaker EVER has stuck his neck out on the chopping block of those who profit from war.

[El Blanco]

So, if in retaliation, some of bin Laden's people blow up a shopping mall full of people in Madrid to punish the council, is it still a unhestitated "yes"?

Its the whole big picture thing.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Yes, and the answers are "yes" and "yes" no hesistation, no equivocation. Unless you are opposed to peace. Unless you think killing and violence are necessary conditions of humanity.

I think there are many muslims who would probably agree with that.

Sure these people are sticking their necks out by doing this, but EVERY peacemaker EVER has stuck his neck out on the chopping block of those who profit from war.

But as our charming, yet terribly bitter friend ABC pointed out, this public decree might not be all that big of a deal. That, I think, is partly the reason Blanco raised the question. He also did it to start conversation, which is what we all do, so stop being so damn anal.

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by El Blanco

I've learned to not take things for granted.

A few years ago, I would have never believed people outside of NK would claim to be willing to defend Kim Jong Il's regime to the death. A few forums have changed my mind.

Politicsforum.org?

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Kev

Will innocent people get kidnapped and beheaded in Spain due to this position?

Originally Posted by Blanc

So, if in retaliation, some of bin Laden's people blow up a shopping mall full of people in Madrid to punish the council, is it still a unhestitated "yes"?

This is EXACTLY what I was getting at. And my answer is still yes - because you can hardly blame the council for the violent actions of terrorists when they are calling for peace! That's like blaming Dr. King for racial violence. If people stop asking for peace because someone is killed, then they aren't serious about asking for peace. I say never stop calling for peace, and never fear the "consequences" of calling for peace.

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

I think there are many muslims who would probably agree with that.

Define many. Many people would have said "most." I would very much like to read the Q'ran, because I often hear passages cited trying to show what a violent and intolerant religion it is, but heck, you take half a dozen of the Old Testament passages and you could paint Christianity as a violent, intolerant religion. There are many people who would agree with the necessity of violence - muslim, christian, or whatever - actually, scares the shit outta me when people use their religion to justify violence. A "holy" war with modern technology could easily wipe us all off the face of the planet.

this public decree might not be all that big of a deal. That, I think, is partly the reason Blanco raised the question. He also did it to start conversation, which is what we all do, so stop being so damn anal.

Well fuck man, I thought I was conversing! When did you become such a damn pain in the ass? He asked if it was good that these muslims issued this fatwa, and I said, yes, hell yes, how could it be bad? We can sit here all day and talk about how good it is, but I'd be extremely disappointed if someone said "this is a bad thing." I'm so sorry I didn't interpret his question the same way as you did Kevin.

[Abcdxxxx]

Unfortunately, they haven't really called for peace.

As for the Quran, it's available online. If you had a large base of Jews or Christians using the Old/New Testaments to oppress, and commit acts of violence on a large scale basis, today in modern civilization, then maybe that would be a good defense of Islamic fascism.

[ziggytrix]

Did you mean fascism or fanaticism? Either way - I don't care if it's Islamic, Christian, or secular - I certainly wasn't intending a defense of them. I just want people to keep in their head that it's the fanatics who are the enemy, and not all religious people are fanatics.