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Old Jul 14th, 2004, 06:28 PM        Plame's Lame Game
What Ambassador Joseph Wilson and his wife forgot to tell us about the yellow-cake scandal.

By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 9:27 AM PT

Two recent reports allow us to revisit one of the great non-stories, and one of the great missed stories, of the Iraq war argument. The non-story is the alleged martyrdom of Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Wilson, supposed by many to have suffered cruel exposure for their commitment to the truth. The missed story is the increasing evidence that Niger, in West Africa, was indeed the locus of an illegal trade in uranium ore for rogue states including Iraq.

The Senate's report on intelligence failures would appear to confirm that Valerie Plame did recommend her husband Joseph Wilson for the mission to Niger. In a memo written to a deputy chief in the CIA's Directorate of Operations, she asserted that Wilson had "good relations with both the Prime Minister and the former Minister of Mines [of Niger], not to mention lots of French contacts." This makes a poor fit with Wilson's claim, in a recent book, that "Valerie had nothing to do with the matter. She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip." (It incidentally seems that she was able to recommend him for the trip because of the contacts he'd made on an earlier trip, for which she had also proposed him.)

Wilson's earlier claim to the Washington Post that, in the CIA reports and documents on the Niger case, "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong," was also false, according to the Senate report. The relevant papers were not in CIA hands until eight months after he made his trip. Wilson now lamely says he may have "misspoken" on this. (See Susan Schmidt's article in the July 10 Washington Post.)

Now turn to the front page of the June 28 Financial Times for a report from the paper's national security correspondent, Mark Huband. He describes a strong consensus among European intelligence services that between 1999 and 2001 Niger was engaged in illicit negotiations over the export of its "yellow cake" uranium ore with North Korea, Libya, Iraq, Iran, and China. The British intelligence report on this matter, once cited by President Bush, has never been disowned or withdrawn by its authors. The bogus document produced by an Italian con man in October 2002, which has caused such embarrassment, was therefore more like a forgery than a fake: It was a fabricated version of a true bill.

Given the CIA's institutional hostility to the "regime change" case, the blatantly partisan line taken in public by Wilson himself, and the high probability that an Iraqi delegation had at least met with suppliers from Niger, how wrong was it of Robert Novak to draw attention to the connection between Plame and Wilson's trip? Or of someone who knew of it to tell Novak?

The Intelligence Identities Protection Act, notionally violated by this disclosure, is a ridiculous piece of legislation to begin with. It relies in practice on a high standard of proof, effectively requiring that the government demonstrate that someone knowingly intended to divulge the identity of an American secret agent operating under cover, with the intention of harming that agent. The United States managed to get through World War II and most of the Cold War without such an act on its books. The obvious disadvantage of the law, apart from its opacity, is that it could be used to stifle legitimate inquiry about what the CIA was up to. Indeed, that was its original intent. It was put forward by right-wingers who wanted to stifle and if possible arrest Philip Agee, a defector from the 1970s whose whistle-blowing book Inside The Company had exposed much CIA wrongdoing. The act is now being piously cited by liberals to criminalize the disclosure that someone who shuttles dangerously "under cover" between Georgetown and Virginia and takes a surreptitious part in an open public debate, works for the agency and has a track record on a major issue.

To say this is not to defend the Bush administration, which typically managed to flourish the only allegation made about Niger that had been faked, and which did not have the courage to confront Mr. and Mrs. Wilson in public with their covert political agenda. But it does draw attention to an interesting aspect of this whole debate: the increasing solidarity of the left with the CIA. The agency disliked Ahmad Chalabi and was institutionally committed to the view that the Saddam regime in Iraq was a) secular and b) rationally interested in self-preservation. It repeatedly overlooked important evidence to the contrary, even as it failed entirely to infiltrate jihadist groups or to act upon FBI field reports about their activity within our borders. Bob Woodward has a marvelous encapsulating anecdote in his recent book: George Tenet on Sept. 11 saying that he sure hopes this isn't anything to do with those people acting suspiciously in the flight schools. ... The case for closing the CIA and starting again has been overwhelming for some time. But many liberals lately prefer, for reasons of opportunism, to take CIA evidence at face value.

I prefer the good old days. It was always alleged against Philip Agee, quite falsely, that he had identified Richard Welch, the CIA station chief in Athens who was gunned down by Greek anarchists in 1975. In fact, Agee had never mentioned his name in any connection. This did not inhibit the authors of the Protection Act from going ahead, or Barbara Bush from saying in her memoirs that Agee had fingered Welch. I actually contacted Agee at that time, pointing out that the book was being published in London and suggesting that he sue. He successfully got Mrs. Bush to change the wording of her paperback version. But we are still stuck with the gag law that resulted from the original defamation, and it is still being invoked to prevent us from discovering what our single worst federal agency is really up to.

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair. His latest book, Blood, Class and Empire: The Enduring Anglo-American Relationship, is out in paperback.

Article URL: http://slate.msn.com/id/2103795/
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Jul 15th, 2004, 08:25 AM       
From slate, no less. Well done sir.

I read that yesterday, and haven't yet had time to look up stuff and see where he's coming from. So far the Britts have done no more than say "Yeah, we havce other secret stuff you probably haven't seen that says the same, but it's secret." which is what Chenney says abouut l Quaeda/ Saddaam links, and I don't believe it in either case. These folks are way past the 'trust me not to ####### in your mouth' stage.

Hitchens himself is what interest me here. I've been reading him for about a dozen years, and watching him tumble down the well worn path of rabid left wing ideologue becomes rabid right wing ideologue (I don't mean he's there yet, but give him time, I gaurantee it's coming.) has been entertaining. I thought he was something of an arrogant jerk as a lefty and I still think he's an arrogant jerk.

Did you read his defense of Chalabi? It boiled down to. "I met him. He's well read and personable, so I think everything I've heard about him being a con man isn't true."
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Old Jul 15th, 2004, 11:52 AM       
Yeah... I like Hitch, but he has his weak points. I think the problem is that he is sooo well liked in his community that he gets a pass when he flubs one like his "defense" of Chalabi. Sullivan is another one I really respect, though I'm waiting on both of them to realize that glomming on to the left or the right that hates you is not the practical path they believe it to be. Established parties simply do not change to the good from the inside when their goal is to dominate, especially under the "two" party lock.

Too many good journalists get sidetracked by their own political affiliations, which tend to misguided, at best. Whatever happened to being critical of ALL government? When did that get replaced by being skeptical of only the efforts of some of the government? Wasn't the whole idea of a free press to protect us from propaganda? How is that served by a media that consistently regurgitates propaganda from one side or the other?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Jul 15th, 2004, 12:01 PM       
Oh yeah, and... The main reason I posted this was because I love seeing Joe Wilson exposed as the hack he really is. That whole thing made me sick to my stomache when it was going on, and I'm glad to see it finally resolved.

Hitch killed me, describing Plame as "someone who shuttles dangerously "under cover" between Georgetown and Virginia and takes a surreptitious part in an open public debate."

Wilson, from a Talking Points Memo interview, trying to convince us Plame had NOTHING to do with his trip to Niger:

"For those who would assert that somehow she was involved in this, it just defies logic. At the time, she was the mother of two-year-old twins. Therefore, sort of sending her husband off on an eight-day trip leaves her with full responsbility for taking care of two screaming two year old kids without help, anybody who is parent would understand what that means. Anybody who is a mother would understand it even far better. Secondly, I mean, the notion somehow that this was some nepotism, that I was being sent on an eight-day, all-expense paid--no salary, mind you--trip to the Sahara desert. This is not Nassau we were talking about. This is not the Bahamas. It wasn't Maui. This was the Sahara desert. And then, the only other thing I can think of is the assertion that she wanted me out of the way for eight days because she, you know, had a lover or something, which is, you don't take lovers when you have two year old kids at home. So there's no logic in it..."

BUSTED! Haha...
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Old Jul 16th, 2004, 11:24 AM       
I hate to be the party pooper here, but I think a point-of-order is needed:

Did Niger sell the "yellow cake" to Iraq? No.

Furthermore, similar to what Max said, I don't know that I care enough to research this anymore, particularly since Hitchinson does in fact have a strange track record of writing just about any ridiculous claim in order to get his intended point across (ie. Chalabi).

Also, I honestly only read about 3/4 of the article, and I have one question. Does this mean "somebody" *COUGH*Rove/Novak!*COUGH* didn't intentionally "out" a CIA operative in order to get political payback.....?

And this little snip struck me:

"The Intelligence Identities Protection Act, notionally violated by this disclosure, is a ridiculous piece of legislation to begin with. It relies in practice on a high standard of proof, effectively requiring that the government demonstrate that someone knowingly intended to divulge the identity of an American secret agent operating under cover, with the intention of harming that agent. The United States managed to get through World War II and most of the Cold War without such an act on its books"

Well, I'm glad to see that a British man thinks very little of the laws enacted by Americans to protect their spies and agents, but wait, actually no, I don't give a shit anout what Christopher Hitchinson thinks. I hope he has written more similar diatribes about his own nation's intelligence gathering, which played an equally crucial role in misleading us (remember the "dossier" that had been plagarized from Amnesty International??)
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Old Jul 16th, 2004, 11:41 AM       
So I was searching through Google News for the article Hitchinson cites, and I came across this recent counter from David Corn of The Nation (NOTE: If Christopher Hitchinson's opinion piece is enough to condemn Wilson, then certainly Corn and the Nation is a fair defense).

CAPITAL GAMES
by David Corn

http://www.thenation.com/capitalgame...bid=3&pid=1558

The Senate intelligence committee's report on prewar intelligence demonstrates that George W. Bush launched a war predicated on false assertions about weapons of mass destruction and misled the country when he claimed Saddam Hussein was in cahoots in al Qaeda. But what has caused outrage within conservative quarters? Passages in the report that they claim undermine the credibility of former Ambassador Joseph Wilson.

Wilson, if you need to be reminded, embarrassed the Bush administration a year ago when he revealed that he had traveled to Niger in February 2002 to check out the allegation that Hussein had been shopping for uranium there. In his 2003 State of the Union address, Bush had referred to Iraq's supposed attempt to obtain uranium in Africa to suggest Hussein was close to possessing a nuclear weapon. When Bush's use of this allegation become a matter of controversy last summer, Wilson went public with a New York Times op-ed piece in which he noted his private mission to Niger--which he had taken on behalf of the CIA--had led him to conclude the allegation was highly unlikely. After Wilson's article appeared, the White House conceded that Bush should not have included this charge in his speech.

A week later, Wilson received the payback. Conservative columnist Robert Novak, quoting two unnamed administration sources, reported that Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson (nee Plame), was a CIA operative working in the counterproliferation field. Novak revealed her identity to suggest that Wilson had been sent to Niger due to nepotism not his experience. The point of Novak's column was to call Wilson's trip and his findings into question.

The real story was that Novak's sources--presumably White House officials--might have violated the law prohibiting government officials from identifying a covert officer of the United States government. Outing Valerie Wilson was a possible felony and--to boot--compromised national security. Two months later, the news broke that the CIA had asked the Justice Department to investigate the Wilson leak. And a US attorney named Patrick Fitzgerald has been on the case since the start of this year, leading an investigation that has included questioning Bush.

But now Wilson's detractor on the right claim the critical issue is Wilson's credibility on two points: whether his wife was involved in the decision to send him to Niger and whether he accurately portrayed his findings regarding his Niger trip. And they have made use of the Senate intelligence report--particularly additional comments filed by committee chairman Pat Roberts and two other Republican members of the committee, Kit Bond and Orrin Hatch--to pound Wilson. But not only does the get-Wilson crusade ignore the main question--did White House officials break the law and damage national security to take a swing at a critic?--it overstates and manipulates the material in the Senate report.

The first shot at Wilson actually came from The Washington Post. The day after the Senate report was released, Post reporter Susan Schmidt did an entire piece on the portion of the report related to the Niger episode. (By the way, the Post devoted more space to the Wilson affair than to the report's conclusion that there was no intelligence to back up Bush's assertion that Iraq and al Qaeda had maintained a working relationship.) In this story, Schmidt claimed that Wilson was "specifically recommended for the [Niger] mission by his wife, a CIA employee, contrary to what he has said publicly." She also reported that the intelligence committee "found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts." Schmidt added, "The report may bolster the rationale that administration officials provided the information not to intentionally expose an undercover CIA employee, but to call into question Wilson's bona fides as an investigator into trafficking of weapons of mass destruction."

Within days, Tim Graham, an analyst at the conservative Media Research Center, wrote a piece for The National Review pointing to the Schmidt article and decrying the "truth-telling problems" of Wilson, whose recent best-selling book is titled The Politics of Truth. Then Novak, returning to the scene of the (possible) crime, cited the committee report and the Republicans' additional comments to prove that he had been right to report in his original column that Wilson's wife had been behind the move to send Wilson to Niger. And Novak approvingly quoted Senator Roberts blast at Wilson: "Rather than speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided....Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the president had lied to the American people, that the vice president had lied, and that he had 'debunked' the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. . . . [N]ot only did he NOT 'debunk' the claim, he actually gave some intelligence analysts even more reason to believe that it may be true." (In this column, Novak did not explore the ethics or legality of White House officials identifying CIA officers.) And then, of course, The Wall Street Journal's editorial page piled on. So did the Republican National COmmittee.

Wilson has written a response to Roberts that addresses many of the criticisms being hurled at him. (See it here. And read Roberts comments here and decide who makes the better case.) But let's sort out some of the various claims. First, what the report says about Valerie Wilson's role in this business. In his book, Wilson writes,

"Apart from being the conduit for a message from a colleague in her office asking if I would be willing to have a conversation about Niger's uranium industry [with CIA counterproliferation experts], Valerie had had nothing to do with the matter. Though she worked on weapons of mass destruction issues, she was not at the meeting I attended where the subject of Niger's uranium was discussed, when the possibility of my actually traveling to the country was broached. She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip."

So what if she had? A week in Niamey for no pay was hardly a junket. What would have been wrong with a CIA officer telling another CIA officer, hey my husband, a former ambassador, is an Africa expert with experience in Niger, perhaps you should send him to Niger to see what he can learn? But because Wilson is on record saying it did not happen this way, the question is whether he has been truthful.

The intelligence committee report says, "Some [CIA Counterproliferation Division] officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador's wife 'offered up his name' and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from [Valerie Wilson] says, 'my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.'...The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA."

The report also notes, "On February 19, 2002, CPD hosted a meeting with the former ambassador, intelligence analysts from both the CIA and INR [the State Department's intelligence unit], and several individuals from the [Directorate of Operations'] Africa and CPD divisions. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the merits of [Wilson] traveling to Niger. An INR analyst's notes indicate that the meeting was 'apparently convened by [Wilson's] wife who had the idea to dispatch [him] to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue. The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that she only attended the meeting to introduce her husband and left after about three minutes."

This is not what ex-CIA chief George Tenet would call a slam-dunk case against Wilson. Sure, some of the evidence seems to contradict his account. But Valerie Wilson could have "offered up" his name as a handy person to contact about allegations concerning Niger's uranium trade without suggesting he get on a plane to Niger. And it is certainly imaginable that an INR analyst sitting in a meeting in which there is talk of dispatching a CIA officer's husband to Africa could have received the impression that his wife had initiated the mission. But if that was the case, why did Valerie Wilson attend for only a few minutes? If Valerie Wilson's account of this meeting is not accurate, where are the contradicting accounts from the other participants? Why does the report not quote them on this topic? Since only a week elapsed between the time Valerie Wilson "offered up" her husband and a meeting was held to consider sending him to Niger, it is possible that someone participating in the matter might have thought that Valerie Wilson's original advice--talk to my husband--was related to question of sending an unofficial envoy to Niger to seek out additional information.

When Wilson returned from Niger two CIA officers debriefed him. "The debriefing," the Senate report says, "took place in the former ambassador's home and although his wife was there, according to the reports officer, she acted as a hostess and did not participate in the debrief." If Valerie Wilson had played a key role in sending Joseph Wilson to Niger, would she have skipped out on this debriefing? Perhaps. But this scene reinforces Wilson's claim that she was not deeply involved in his Niger trip.

It may be that in some of his public remarks, Wilson underplayed his wife's involvement in his trip. After all, according to the Senate intelligence committee's report, she did write at least one memo on the subject. But it is not clear from the report that she specifically advocated he be sent to Niger. Again, it makes little difference--or it should make little difference--whether Valerie Wilson said to her CIA colleagues "contact my husband" or said to them "you should put him on a plane to Niamey immediately." The report notes that the CIA people in charge of investigating the Niger allegation deliberated over what to do and then reached the decision to ask Wilson to perform a pro bono act of public service. And he said yes. He had the experience for the job. His trip was not a boondoggle arranged by his wife for his or their benefit.

Now on to the claim that Wilson's report to the CIA actually provided more reason to believe Iraq had been seeking yellowcake uranium. In his debriefing Wilson reported that former Nigerian Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki had told him that in 1999 he had been asked to meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. Mayaki said he assumed the delegation wanted to discuss uranium sales. But he said that although he had met with the delegation he had not been interested in pursuing any commercial dealings with Iraq. The intelligence report based on Wilson's debriefing also noted that the former minister of mines explained to Wilson that given the tight controls maintained by the French consortium in charge of uranium mining in Niger, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to arrange a shipment of uranium to a pariah state.

What did this report mean to the intelligence community? A CIA reports officer told the Senate intelligence committee that he took it as indirect confirmation of the allegation since Nigerian officials had admitted that an Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999 and since the former prime minister had said he believed Iraq was interested in purchasing uranium. But an INR analyst said that he considered the report to be corroboration of INR's position, which was that the allegation was "highly suspect" because Niger would be unlikely to engage in such a transaction and unable to transfer uranium to Iraq due to the strict controls maintained by the French consortium. But the INR analyst added, the "report could be read in different ways."

Wilson's work was thrown into the stew. The CIA continued to disseminate a report noting that a foreign intelligence service had told US intelligence that Niger had agreed to supply Iraq with hundreds of tons of uranium. And in the National Intelligence Estimate produced in October 2002, the intelligence community reported that Iraq had been trying to strike a uranium deal with Niger in 2001. But the NIE noted that INR strongly disagreed with this assessment. And when the National Security Council drafted a speech for Bush in October 2002 the CIA recommended the address not include the Niger allegation because it was "debatable" whether the yellowcake could be obtained from Niger. In a follow-up fax to the NSC, the CIA said "the evidence is weak" and "the procurement is not particularly significant to Iraq's nuclear ambitions because the Iraqis already have a large stock of uranium oxide in their inventory." Still, in late January 2003--after the INR's Iraq analyst had concluded that papers recently obtained by US intelligence related to the supposed Iraqi-Niger uranium deal were "clearly a forgery"--Bush went ahead and accused Iraq of seeking uranium in Africa.

But on April 5, 2003, the National Intelligence Council issued a memo that noted, "we judge it highly unlikely that Niamey has sold uranium yellowcake to Baghdad in recent years." It added that the government of Niger was unlikely to proceed with such a deal. And on June 17, 2003, the CIA produced a memo that said, "since learning that the Iraq-Niger uranium deal was based on false documents earlier this spring, we no longer believe that there is sufficient other reporting to conclude that Iraq pursued uranium from aboard."

So Wilson's assessment ended up being accepted by the CIA. His reporting may not have been conclusive. But as we have been told repeatedly this past week, such is often the case in intelligence collection. After coming back from Niger, Wilson's view--which he did not express publicly for nearly a year and a half--was different from that held by CIA analysts. Yet his conclusion--that the Niger allegation was probably bunk--was in line with the thinking of the State Department's lead analyst on this matter. And Wilson's reasoning came to prevail and to be shared by the intelligence community. For some reason, Novak does not mention this in his recent column.

Finally, let's address Schmidt's claim that the Senate intelligence committee's report "may bolster" the defense of the leakers--whoever they are. Whether their motivation was to punish Wilson for speaking out or to try to undermine his credibility by suggesting his only bona fides for the Niger trip was his marriage license, blowing Valerie Wilson's cover still was a possible crime and an odious act. The law does not allow a government official to reveal a CIA officer--and jeopardizing the officer, her contacts, and her operations--to score political points.

What Wilson told his CIA contacts, what he told reporters, what he said in public--accurate or not--did not justify disclosing Valerie Wilson's identity. Nor did it justify the subsequent White House effort to encourage other reporters to pursue the Valerie Wilson story. The leak was thuggish and possibly felonious. And the Wilsons and others are waiting to see what comes from Fitzgerald's investigation. (NBC News reported recently that the probe had expanded to examine possible acts of perjury and lying to investigators.) There is no telling if the investigation will end with indictments or whitewashing. It has been a mostly leak-free probe, and even senior people at the Justice Department say they have no idea where Fitzgerald is heading--if anywhere.

Whatever Fitzgerald's criminal investigation produces, the Wilsons were wronged. And Bush and his White House crew did nothing to seek out or punish the Novak-enabled leakers who placed politics ahead of national security and decency. Instead, White House officials peddled the leak further to discredit Wilson, and GOPers have been seeking to blast him ever since. Roberts and other Republicans are using the intelligence committee's report to whack Wilson, a prominent opponent of the Iraq war and a foreign policy adviser to Senator John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. If only Roberts' committee had applied as much time and energy into investigating the Wilson leak (and how the White House reacted to the leak) as it did to the actions of Valerie Wilson. But the leak is a subject that, for some odd reason, has escaped the attention of Roberts' investigators. And Roberts and his ideological comrades are exploiting the release of the committee's report to blame the victims of the leak. They are far more angered by alleged (or trumped-up) inconsistencies in Wilson's account than by Bush's misrepresentation of the prewar intelligence. Talk about overstating a problem.
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Old Jul 16th, 2004, 12:53 PM       
Hardly a fair trade, really... :/

I sought out the Slate article because, while much stronger work was available, the majority of what's out there right now would be as partisan as something by Corn, though in a conservative way.

That's a helluva lot of spin, and I'm not going to take the rest of my lunch break to parse it all out. Essentially, if you want to swallow that in it's entirety, go ahead. The truth lies somewhere in the middle between that sort of propaganda and what you'd likely hear on Limbaugh.

Wilson lied, and he did it for partisan reasons. He continues to lie, and Corn & Co will help as long as he's willing to keep it up. Iraq actually DID seek yellowcake in Niger. Niger is not the only place to get it, either. An assload of actual WMD materiel has surfaced in foreign scrapyards, and much more was shipped to Syria prior to the invasion. You can choose not to accept that, but I'm not gonna fight that fight with you. I think it's beneath us both.
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How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Jul 16th, 2004, 01:17 PM       
Hmm, so when you're seeking out moderation, you go with Christopher Hitchinson.....?

I'll refrain from responding to this until you can digest your lunch and actually back up your accusations.

You sound just as blindly partisan as the Wilson you tell us of.

Quote:
Wilson lied, and he did it for partisan reasons. He continues to lie, and Corn & Co will help as long as he's willing to keep it up.
Where was this horrible, horrible lie? His wife suggested to some co-workers that he might know a thing or two about Niger?? If this is a lie, IF, then how does this change the substance of the matter? The fact is, Iraq didn't purchase it from Niger, and the use of this claim was among several errounious claims in the push for war. Now, if you need to spin stories like this in order to rationalize your own support of the war, that's your deal. But calling a man and his wife liars and partisans because he may have down-played the already minimal role his wife had in the Niger trip is shadowed by the fact that 1. someone within the Bush White House probably may have broken the law (which seems like an insignificant mater to the Briton), and 2. it's merely one piece of a crumbling puzzle for war.


Quote:
Iraq actually DID seek yellowcake in Niger. Niger is not the only place to get it, either. An assload of actual WMD materiel has surfaced in foreign scrapyards, and much more was shipped to Syria prior to the invasion. You can choose not to accept that, but I'm not gonna fight that fight with you. I think it's beneath us both.
You have made two claims that have not been substantiated by anyone of real substance, aside from outlets like Newsmax.com. Sorry, you can be as condescending as you like, I know that may be a familiar tactic for you, but it doesn't make you right. :/
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Old Jul 16th, 2004, 06:35 PM       
I'm not trying to come off as condescending, Kevin. Sorry. Fact of the matter is, as you already indicated, you and I can google around the internet for days on end, finding partisan hackery from both sides to support anything we want... and none of it's going to be worth anything until the day that has yet to come where the WMD question can be settled with actual evidence. At this point, enough WMD materiel has surfaced to put Saddam in clear breach, though it's still debateable as to what constitutes the "stockpiles" we were told about and whether or not they'll be found.

The forged or faked documents re: Niger will soon be getting more attention paid to them, from what I hear, as will the reports of the mysterious trucks that convoyed into Syria during the initial invasion. Coalition forces have found Mustard Gas in artillery shells being used for roadside bombs... those had to come from somewhere, though the existence of a few shells in no way obviates any "stockpiles." Enough VX (hardly as easy to produce as Sarin) to kill 100,000 people was stopped from being smuggled into Jordan from Syria. That investigation has yet to lead to confirmed "stockpiles" of Iraqi weapons in Syria, but I don't think anyone could successfully argue it one way or another until they have some more facts...

Nobody is in a position to argue this stuff from a factual standpoint yet. WMD "stockpiles" have yet to be found, but there has clearly not been enough time to find them, either. SOME WMD stuff has been found, yet not enough to lead to any "stockpiles" or even to indicate clearly whether they exist. I said that discussion is beneath us both because I figured neither one of us would want to argue today from a position that could so easily be proven absolutely wrong tomorrow. I don't like making myself look like an idiot, and I assumed you don't either.

As for Hitchens, I don't blindly believe anything he writes anymore than I would anyone else. I posted an article to begin a conversation, and I chose NOT to select one from a partisan site, such as Newsmax (or the Nation.) As Max noted, I picked an article from left-leaning Slate to begin a discussion on a left leaning board. I thought that might mean the difference between beginning a discussion and starting a fight.

Hitchens is still considered decidedly left-leaning, though that's been a subject of dispute recently, as Max noted. I believe he's been "outed" as a pseudo-liberal because he refuses to follow the crowd and outright lie about the Bush administration. You only have to read some of his articles to see that he believes Bush can be defeated with TRUTH, and that that is his what he'd like to see happen. I can respect that. Read The stupidity of Ronald Reagan and tell me Hitchens is a partisan conservative.

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." ~Dubya, SOTU

"Mayaki said he assumed the delegation wanted to discuss uranium sales. But he said that although he had met with the delegation he had not been interested in pursuing any commercial dealings with Iraq. The intelligence report based on Wilson's debriefing also noted that the former minister of mines explained to Wilson that given the tight controls maintained by the French consortium in charge of uranium mining in Niger, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to arrange a shipment of uranium to a pariah state..." ~your article, above

"Iraq actually DID seek yellowcake in Niger." ~Me

Is it not clear that Iraq SOUGHT yellowcake? You can split hairs and point to the word "assumed" but you can hardly avoid the rest of the paragraph that shows us this meeting took place. Yes, we are left wondering a bit, so if you want to show me how that quote from your article should leave me to believe Iraq did not seek yellowcake from Niger, rock on.

As for me being partisan, I do speak from a point of view though I don't mindlessly spew any party line, especially not that of the Party of God.

As for Wilson's lie, I think I covered that above. It was a lie. Wilson went to great lengths to convice us it was not a lie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
Wilson, from a Talking Points Memo interview, trying to convince us Plame had NOTHING to do with his trip to Niger:

"For those who would assert that somehow she was involved in this, it just defies logic. At the time, she was the mother of two-year-old twins. Therefore, sort of sending her husband off on an eight-day trip leaves her with full responsbility for taking care of two screaming two year old kids without help, anybody who is parent would understand what that means. Anybody who is a mother would understand it even far better. Secondly, I mean, the notion somehow that this was some nepotism, that I was being sent on an eight-day, all-expense paid--no salary, mind you--trip to the Sahara desert. This is not Nassau we were talking about. This is not the Bahamas. It wasn't Maui. This was the Sahara desert. And then, the only other thing I can think of is the assertion that she wanted me out of the way for eight days because she, you know, had a lover or something, which is, you don't take lovers when you have two year old kids at home. So there's no logic in it..."
...and I find it hilarious that he's been caught in it. Note the part where he addresses his comments to anyone that thinks she had ANYTHING to do with his trip. Keep in mind, I'd be as delighted to see Cheney or Rumsfeld caught in such an obvious lie. I don't like liars and I love to see them get busted.

Was the lie important? No more important than Valerie Plame's "outing" by Novak. The law in question was written to protect operatives, not consultants. Plame's work for the CIA has always been very well known. To get all up in arms about it being mentioned is simply ridiculous to anyone that isn't willing to let ridiculous stand in the way of some good, old fashioned Bush-hatin'.

Let me be clear: It is my feeling that the Democrats have been committing suicide for four years now with this whole Bush-Hate thing. I see it as entirely counter-productive and senseless. It makes the whole party look terribly immature and childish, and it allows Rush Limbaugh to whitewash anything Team Bush© might actually do in the service of evil as "just more of that ol' Bush-Hate from the wacky left." I'm not saying I believe Bush is evil, just that I want to know if he starts showing those signs... When all I get is hyperbole and nonsense over EVERY single issue that MIGHT grow wings, I stop paying attention.

As a tool, Bush-Hate is designed to create an illusion for the benefit of those that have only a tenuous grasp of current political events that everybody suspects Bush of being Satan for some reason... but where's the intelligent reasoning for those of us who know that's not likely true? It's absense tells a story of it's own.

At the end of the day, hate is too strong an emotion to attract new converts through illusions alone. The Clinton years should have proven that. In the mean time, it's making any real public debate about Bush's presidency nearly impossible, and it cheapens politics more, if that's even possible.

My biggest fear, as a person that finds it ever harder to distinguish the actual policies of the Democrats from their Republican counterparts, is that this whole hate-based electioneering thing is just so much sleight of hand. Too many people will be voting for anybody but Bush this November, just as too many voters will go to the polls with glassy eyes, blindly chanting "Support our troops... Support our troops... Support our troops..." That's scary to me.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

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Old Jul 19th, 2004, 05:21 PM       
No reply?

Either way, the world has moved on. The big question now is Iran... Pointing figures back into the past and discussing WMD that may or may not yet turn up... In Iraq... but are we going to have this same discussion in two years about Iran? Will the anti-war and anti-Bush crowds be able to complain about being railroaded through a decision then?
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Jul 20th, 2004, 12:19 PM       
Sorry, I'll be back when I have time....I tend to go through waves with message boards, right now it's low tide.
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Old Jul 23rd, 2004, 06:32 PM       
I apologize for my delay. I wanted to wait until I had time to attempt a thoughtful response......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
Nobody is in a position to argue this stuff from a factual standpoint yet. WMD "stockpiles" have yet to be found, but there has clearly not been enough time to find them, either. SOME WMD stuff has been found, yet not enough to lead to any "stockpiles" or even to indicate clearly whether they exist. I said that discussion is beneath us both because I figured neither one of us would want to argue today from a position that could so easily be proven absolutely wrong tomorrow. I don't like making myself look like an idiot, and I assumed you don't either.
Right, but I have to disagree with your "agree to disagree" stance on the matter. I don't think that's where it stands, because the burden of proof rests now on those who pushed for the war, not those who opposed it. You'll have to redirect me to some links about WMD that have been found, because frankly, the only thing I can recall hearing about during the war were the missiles that exceeded firing range. This is worth mentioning, but hardly worth going to war over. I don't want to get too much into Syria and Niger in this thread, but as for "mysterious trucks" and shells with mustard gas, I could quite easily respond with the argument that there most certainly are terrorists with horrible weapons in Iraq.....now. The borders have been swung wide open, and while I don't doubt that Saddam Hussein was an evil man, I'd hold anything found in those borders now as suspect.


Quote:
As for Wilson's lie, I think I covered that above. It was a lie. Wilson went to great lengths to convice us it was not a lie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
Wilson, from a Talking Points Memo interview, trying to convince us Plame had NOTHING to do with his trip to Niger:

"For those who would assert that somehow she was involved in this, it just defies logic. At the time, she was the mother of two-year-old twins. Therefore, sort of sending her husband off on an eight-day trip leaves her with full responsbility for taking care of two screaming two year old kids without help, anybody who is parent would understand what that means. Anybody who is a mother would understand it even far better. Secondly, I mean, the notion somehow that this was some nepotism, that I was being sent on an eight-day, all-expense paid--no salary, mind you--trip to the Sahara desert. This is not Nassau we were talking about. This is not the Bahamas. It wasn't Maui. This was the Sahara desert. And then, the only other thing I can think of is the assertion that she wanted me out of the way for eight days because she, you know, had a lover or something, which is, you don't take lovers when you have two year old kids at home. So there's no logic in it..."
...and I find it hilarious that he's been caught in it. Note the part where he addresses his comments to anyone that thinks she had ANYTHING to do with his trip. Keep in mind, I'd be as delighted to see Cheney or Rumsfeld caught in such an obvious lie. I don't like liars and I love to see them get busted.

I think it's unfortunate and at the same time amusing though to see Joe Wilson take the spotlight following the intelligence committee's reports. The report also reads:

(U) Conclusion 16. The language in the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate that "Iraq also began vigorously trying to procure uranium ore and yellowcake" overstated what the Intelligence Community knew about Iraq's possible procurement attempts.

Again, we'll get to yellow cake elsewhere, but my main concern is the fact that Joe Wilson's exaggerations have been turned into lies that vindicated the POTUS and validate the war in Iraq, which the committee hearings DO NOT do. There's a good reason why it has been guys like Ed Gillespie rather than the Bush administration themselves touting this big, bad Joe Wilson lie. That reason is that these committee hearings look horrible for Bush, and they also look horrible primarily for our intelligence capabilities.

Quote:
Was the lie important? No more important than Valerie Plame's "outing" by Novak. The law in question was written to protect operatives, not consultants. Plame's work for the CIA has always been very well known. To get all up in arms about it being mentioned is simply ridiculous to anyone that isn't willing to let ridiculous stand in the way of some good, old fashioned Bush-hatin'.
No, no, no....now this is unfair. If Sandy Berger warrants a congressional investigation, I'd say so does this. Keep in mind, the Wilson Niger reports (as you well know) came at a time of numerous faulty claims of WMD discoveries, most of which are outlined and denounced in the intelligence committee findings.

Quote:
Let me be clear: It is my feeling that the Democrats have been committing suicide for four years now with this whole Bush-Hate thing. I see it as entirely counter-productive and senseless. It makes the whole party look terribly immature and childish, and it allows Rush Limbaugh to whitewash anything Team Bush© might actually do in the service of evil as "just more of that ol' Bush-Hate from the wacky left." I'm not saying I believe Bush is evil, just that I want to know if he starts showing those signs... When all I get is hyperbole and nonsense over EVERY single issue that MIGHT grow wings, I stop paying attention.
Again, I think you're taking this a bit out of its context. I understand where you're coming from-- searching for objective truth in a sea of partisanship, etc. etc., but this Bush hate did come from somewhere, and it wasn't necessarily the bitch whipped DNC or DLC.

It's not like Joe Wilson and Michael Moore have been two lone-wolves in the criticism of Bush. You see it in the testimonies of Richard Clarke, as well as the findings of the 9/11 committee. The last round of criticism stems from the intelligence committee, but it goes back well before the war started, with the criticism of former UN weaons inspector Scott Ritter. Many reliable sources were, and have questioned this war.

And it's a two-sided coin. You're right, the country is incredibly polarized at the moment. But just as much as folks like Moore want to tear down Bush, others onthe Right look for any shred of mustard gas or "mysterious trucks" to ensure that this entire war wasn't erronious. You see it in both committee reports-- our intelligence gathering capabilities are weak, and in the case of Iraq, they were flawed. But why? Were we kidding ourselves about how good we are? Was this all George Tenet's fault? Leave it to a Clinton guy to fuck up the country, right?

But clearly, as we well know, the desire to invade Iraq was there prior to 9/11. You can't deny that it had already been a neo-conservative agenda. Throughout the intelligence committee's report, you see a general theme that our intelligence gathering related to Iraq was like tunnel vision.

To quote a quote from the report, " "In discussions with the Committee about his experience running the Iraq Survey Group, Dr. David Kay suggested that the 1C's mind set before Operation Iraqi Freedom concerning Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs was a train that seemed "to always be going in the same direction.""

To add to that:

"The presumption that Iraq had active WMD programs was so strong that formalized IC mechanisms established to challenge assumptions and "group think," such as "red teams," "devil's advocacy," and other types of alternative or competitive analysis, were not utilized. The Committee found no evidence that IC analysts, collectors, or managers made any effort to question the fundamental assumptions that Iraq had active and expanded WMD programs, nor did they give serious consideration to other possible explanations for Iraq's failure to satisfy its WMD accounting discrepancies, other than that it was hiding and preserving WMD.

"In fact, numerous interviews with intelligence analysts and documents provided to the Committee indicate that analysts and collectors assumed that sources who denied the existence or continuation of WMD programs and stocks were either lying or not knowledgeable about Iraq's programs, while those sources who reported ongoing WMD activities were seen as having provided valuable information."

"None of the guidance given to human intelligence collectors suggested that collection be focused on determining whether Iraq had WMD. Instead, the requirements assumed that Iraq had WMD, and focused on uncovering those activities and collecting against the extent of Iraq's WMD production and the locations of hidden stocks of weapons."

This isn't coming from merely the fringe, preech, this is the intelligence committee. Where did this push to find WMD in Iraq come from? Was it merely coming from the intelligence agencies themselves? I highly doubt it. As I said previously, we know that Iraqi liberation or invasion (pick your preference) was a predesigned goal of this administration.

So, I guess my point is that turning this into merely dirty tactics from the "Anybody but Bush" camp is wrong. There are very obvious reasons to be critical of this call to arms, and it's not just because Michael Moore or Joe Wilson said so.
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Old Jul 29th, 2004, 01:25 PM       
Bump!
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Old Jul 30th, 2004, 09:17 PM       
Bump Noted.

Manyana, compadre.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Aug 2nd, 2004, 12:07 PM       
http://www.decaturdailydemocrat.com/...ditorial02.txt

Fuel for the pro-war blogs

By TIM RUTTEN
The Los Angeles Times

It takes a strong stomach to plunge into the sea of malice, mendacity and misrepresentation that now churns around the affair of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV and his wife, Valerie Plame.



But while a quick immersion in the muck may not completely clarify some of this case's hazier facts, it is disturbingly instructive about some of the tendencies playing themselves out in the American media over this contentious election year.



Wilson, you will recall, is the retired American diplomat who in February 2002 was sent to Niger by the CIA to investigate reports that Iraq had purchased or attempted to buy uranium ore. Niger has two uranium mines, both controlled by a European consortium managed by the French. Plame is a CIA operative - formerly undercover - who works on nonproliferation issues. Wilson returned from the African nation reporting that he had found ``nothing to support allegations'' that Baghdad had attempted to purchase the ore, commonly referred to as ``yellowcake.''



However, in his January 2003 State of the Union Address making the case for a pre-emptive war against Iraq, President Bush said that ``the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.''



Six months later, Wilson wrote an op-ed piece for The New York Times in which he recounted his secret mission and his conclusions about the Iraqi's alleged interest in Niger's uranium. He also charged that his findings had been ignored and suppressed as part of a general administration effort to twist intelligence data into a justification for war. Within a week, columnist Robert Novak wrote that ``two senior Administration officials'' had told him that Wilson's wife was a covert CIA agent and that she had recommended her husband for the African mission. Revealing a covert agent's identity can - under certain extremely limited circumstances - be a crime, and a special prosecutor and the FBI still are investigating the sources of Novak's information.



All of this quite naturally produced a series of news stories, many of which ran on the front pages of leading newspapers, including the Los Angeles Times. Earlier this year, Wilson published a book, ``The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies That Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity,'' bitterly critical of the Bush administration and its conduct in the run-up to the war. It received mixed reviews, though its author was interviewed on every imaginable network news show and made the cover of Time.



Earlier this month, the Senate Intelligence Committee issued a 511-page report documenting the catastrophic failure of U.S. intelligence on Iraq. When the United States and its allies attacked his regime, Saddam had no stores of poison gas, biotoxins or covert nuclear program. This week, a British inquiry into prewar intelligence failures reached similar conclusions, though it continued to assert that Britain had ``credible'' intelligence that Iraq had sought uranium in Niger as recently as 1999. No support was offered.



Taken together, though, these reports were enough to kindle a fury among the politically minded Internet bloggers, who have become a major presence on the Net's freewheeling fringes. To them, Wilson - who has a flair for self-promotion - is the poster boy for a nearly traitorous opposition to the war.



The bloggers, whose rhetoric gains heat and velocity as it ricochets from one site to another through a chain of self-referential links, basically formulated a two-count indictment: First, Wilson lied by saying he was not recruited for the mission by his wife and about the conclusiveness of what he had found once in Niger. (The former charge is crucial in certain conspiratorial quarters because many neo-conservative bloggers believe the CIA, Plame's employer, was soft on Saddam and against the war.) Second, major newspapers, including the Los Angeles Times, were alleged to be suppressing the story of Wilson's mendacity. In other words, why won't the media tell us the truth?



Something of the flavor of the invective could be found in this description by Roger L. Simon, the screenwriter and novelist turned pro-war blogger: ``Wilson is no ordinary rat, the likes of which have abounded in virtually every political party since time immemorial,'' Simon wrote on his site, www.rogerlsimon.com. ``He is a deeply evil human being willing to lie and obfuscate for temporary political gain about a homicidal dictator's search for weapon's grade uranium.''



By week's end, as Mary Jacoby wrote in Salon, slightly less hyperbolic versions of this line had migrated into more mainstream channels: ``Choreographed editorials and Op-Ed pieces . . . in The Wall Street Journal and National Review and by conservative columnist Robert Novak signaled the revving up of a Republican campaign to discredit former ambassador Joseph Wilson and his claims that President Bush trumpeted flimsy intelligence in the drive to invade Iraq.''



But did the mainstream media, in the meantime, actually ignore the story? Given the magnitude of the implications in both the U.S. and Britain's intelligence assessments, the Plame/Wilson affair is a bit of a footnote. In fact, over the past week, The Washington Post, New York Times and Los Angeles Times have worked their way through the reports' main themes and all eventually published dense accounts of their conclusions concerning Wilson.



But are those conclusions really as clear-cut as the bloggers and their mainstream allies make them out to be? While the Senate report says that Plame ``offered up'' her husband's name for the mission, a senior CIA official this week told the Los Angeles Times' Doyle McManus: ``Her bosses say she did not initiate the idea of her husband going. . . . They asked her if he'd be willing to go, and she said yes.''



As Wilson himself pointed out to the Senate committee in a letter sent Thursday, CIA officials have said precisely the same thing over the past year to Newsday reporters Tim Phelps and Kenneth Rogers and to CNN's David Ensor.



Wilson also pointed the committee to these excerpts from its own report:



€ ``On Oct. 5, 2002, . . . the ADDI (associate deputy director for Intelligence) said an Iraqi nuclear analyst - he could not remember who - raised concerns about the sourcing and some of the facts of the Niger reporting, specifically that the control of the mines in Niger would have made it very difficult to get yellowcake to Iraq.'' (Page 55)



``Based on the analyst's comments, the ADDI faxed a memo to the deputy national security adviser that said, `Remove the sentence because the amount is in dispute and it is debatable whether it can be acquired from this source. We told Congress that the Brits have exaggerated this issue. Finally, the Iraqis already have 550 metric tons of uranium oxide in their inventory.'" (Page 56)



``On Oct. 6, 2002, the (director of Central Intelligence) called the deputy national security adviser directly to outline the CIA's concerns. The (director) testified to the (Senate committee) on July 16, 2003, that he told the deputy national security adviser that the `president should not be a fact witness on this issue,' because his analysts had told him the `reporting was weak.'" (Page 56)



€ ``On Oct. 6, 2002, the CIA sent a second fax to the White House that said, `More on why we recommend removing the sentence about procuring uranium oxide from Africa: Three points (1) The evidence is weak. One of the two mines cited by the source as the location of the uranium oxide is flooded. The other mine cited by the source is under the control of the French authorities. (2) The procurement is not particularly significant to Iraq's nuclear ambitions because the Iraqis already have a large stock of uranium oxide in their inventory. And (3) we have shared points one and two with Congress, telling them that the Africa story is overblown and telling them this is one of the two issues where we differed with the British.' '' (Page 56)



There you have it: full disclosure. As they say on television, you decide.

----
Rutten writes about the media for The Times.



Content © Copyright 2004, 2005, Los Angeles Times-Washington Post News Service, all rights reserved
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Old Aug 2nd, 2004, 05:18 PM       
What we knew was in Iraq was already taken care of. It's interesting to remember, given the destruction of the centrifuge equipment in that report, the discovery of those centrifuge parts in that scientist's rose garden... especially when you factor in for the renewed interest in yellowcake procurement.

It does say in that report that Iraq's known stores included some yellowcake, which was contrary to what I'd thought before... I thought what was in Iraq was nuclear fuel only, not part of a nuke program. Either way, it was locked up tight (at least until WE showed up) and Iraq was out to find new materiel to replace it in order to reconstitute it's nuclear weapons program.

I'm definitely no nuclear scientist. That guy that said I was dumb seems to know more than I do about this stuff... I wish he'd explain the actual difference between uranium oxide which is used for nuclear fuel and yellowcake, which is also uranium oxide, but used to make weapons.... Well, I can look up the exact differences... the problem seems to be that the media can't be bothered to make that distinction clear when it's reporting a story...

Your article seems to state that those warnings and suggestions to remove the 16 words actually referred to the SOTU address, which is false. Those were what had the reference removed from a prior speech. I posted a link in the original thread (I think... I can't find it) to the transcript of the press conference where the White House admitted the 16 words shouldn't have been in the SOTU, and the reason given was that it was controversial, not untrue.

Moving on, I wasn't as much saying we should agree to disagree as I was suggesting there just isn't enough information available yet to argue either side. At some point, enough time will have passed to have uncovered the extent of what was going on in Iraq in regard to WsMD. While the burden of proof may indeed lie on the side of the hawks, I think it's kinda silly to say at this point that there are no stockpiles still hidden when nobody has said they're done looking.

Additionally, I doubt any terrorists in possession of WsMD would leave them lying around in Iraq to prove Bush right. The more likely scenario would be that the terrorists could find something before we got there and use it in Europe or America (or on American bases in Iraq.) I suspect that the day Al Quaeda gets hold of any such weapon will be the day the plans for it's immediate use will be set in motion.

Yes, the various reports look terrible for the intelligence community at large, and I agree that there's a reason the White House isn't jumping on this bandwagon which is Wilson. Wilson's lie only carries political weight... the original hub-bub due to his Times Op-Ed and Novak's rebuttal, which started the Plame controversy, was always only political, but Wilson's accusations were the the impetus of the entire "Bush Lied" movement, so it's no small wonder this iteration of the story is being ballyhooed by the right.

Again, the fact that Wilson's lie is in the news is that was the start of the "He Lied!" anti-war stance...

Our intelligence services have ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS, been an embarrassment and a tragic flaw in government. This is not Bush's fault, and he's far from the first President to look like an ass for having trusted the CIA. My personal opinion is that the CIA's "handling" of the Middle East for the last 50 years is exactly why we are having to fight a War on Terror now. I'm not the person that would point to past American transgressions, however, and conclude we should be disallowed from helping out in the present. I figure we screwed it up, so it's our job to clean up our mess to the greatest degree those we once used as pawns will allow us.

I have a hard time comparing Sandy Berger's pants-stuffing with Plame's "outing." Sandy's either up to something very questionable or, at best, far to inept to have ever held any sort of security clearance... and he had the highest clearance a civilian can hold as NSA, I would imagine. If his "comical" sloppiness resulted in his chucking "Eyes Only for the President" type documents in the trash bin at McDonald's, I guess we'd have to take a close look at whatever he's had in his hands over his entire career, wouldn't you?

That hardly compares to an unnamed WH staffer telling Bob Novak that Plame, a CIA employee but in no way a spy, was behind the otherwise stupifying decision to send him to Niger. THAT is the main question I remember about that spot in history: Why the Hell would they send him, of all people?! As for having once served "undercover," it's hardly a secret that the wife of any foreign ambassador works in a certain capacity for the CIA, just as all foreign spies are officially diplomats to whatever country they're working in.

...

Bush Hate does come from somewhere: Election 2000. It's entirely possible that it's roots even pre-date Bush the President, going all the way back to the endless Clinton vs. Starr circus. Let Kerry win and watch the Republicans behave the same way for 4 years. It's just LCD politics. An inevitability.

I'm not even so confident that Bush Hate doesn't come mostly from the Bush Administration itself, as I've said previously. An enemy blinded by rage is easier to defeat; his overwhelming desire to inflict pain limits the creativity necessary for victory. I can't remember if it was Sun Tsu or Yoda that said that... Team Bush© is becoming infamous for the unanswered accusation that eventually leads to ridiculous, and therefore self-defeating, charges.


You say many reliable sources have questioned this war. Hell, I have questioned this war! While I support what should be able to be done with this effort, and believe SOME sort of extreme action was inevitable in any plan with a hope of success, it's always been pretty damn obvious that this is the equivalent of nuetering your cat with a blender. I've been sufficently impressed along the way to see the skill with which our armed forces have learned to use that blender, but war is still a crude, and essentially unsuited, tool for peace.

Peaceful means, however, stopped working long ago. It's obvious now that the Oil-for-Food mess was just another method for graft, on possibly the largest scale ever in fact.

Quote:
...our intelligence gathering capabilities are weak, and in the case of Iraq, they were flawed. But why? Were we kidding ourselves about how good we are? Was this all George Tenet's fault? Leave it to a Clinton guy to fuck up the country, right?

Again, from what I'm currently reading on that subject, it seems astonishingly clear that, to those who rely on intelligence, including the community itself, the system we have in place has been nothing but screwed from the very beginning. It's a total mess, though still capable of doing A part in the defense of our country despite it's imminently flawed structure and methods. I'm not yet to the point that I could explain it all in detail, but I'm working on it. I can say with complete confidence, however, that no single President can be blamed for the intelligence boondoggle we have in this country. It's an institutional problem, and I'm not sure if it will ever be, much less even could be, fixed.

Quote:
But clearly, as we well know, the desire to invade Iraq was there prior to 9/11. You can't deny that it had already been a neo-conservative agenda. Throughout the intelligence committee's report, you see a general theme that our intelligence gathering related to Iraq was like tunnel vision.
Yes, of course it was. As I said, Iraq was a tactical choice in the larger war, and a very good choice at that. No, that's not how it was "sold" to the public, but you can bet your ass the leaders of every country involved knew what was truly going on and that the rest was all just so much posturing. Why did we go to the Balkans? Somalia? Why did we fight either of the World Wars?

The British had no less than three offers from German Resistance folk to assassinate Hitler from the inside, well before Poland or Czechoslovakia. They passed because they wanted to stop him diplomatically and set the course for their dealings with Germany on a path they felt was advantageous to them. Looking back, this was idiotic, but it's enlightening to note that this was not part of the public discourse at the time. Nazis were all just Nazis throughout the war... there was never any mention, publically, of any resistance, as that would have hurt the war effort by allowing sympathy for the enemy.

Hitler could have been stopped at several points during the war through military means, but the decision to take the fight into Germany itself instead was made in order to humble the country by essentially raping it and leaving it in tatters, subdividing it up among the allies. Was that what was said at the time? Did the papers relate that as the reason so many more troops had to die?

I'm not saying the Bushies didn't think there were WsMd in Iraq. I don't really have to look further than Rumsfeld's under-staffing of the invasion force to see how scared he was that most of our military forces could be wiped out in one big whomp... but I could give you more examples if you need them.

In addition to the predetermined attack on Iraq, you can look back and see the Patriot Act wasn't a new idea, either. 9/11 just scared us enough to let them get it through... and by them I'm not necessarily referring to just this administration. Federal prosecuters had been trying to get a version of that thing through the legislature for a decade before events made it palateable.

David Kay's report was not so much highlighting "tunnel vision," as you call it, but criticizing our lack of Human Intelligence, or spies on the ground.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Preechr Preechr is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2003
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Old Aug 2nd, 2004, 05:27 PM       
oOps... hit enter too early...

Damn... that's already a long post!

Anyhoo... The part about "groupthink" being able to be challenged by "red teams" is pure bunk. "Red Team" analysis has never bore fruit. The main problem is a near total lack of information sharing between the groups that are doing the productive work. Inter-agency and iter-department turf wars and a badly configured promotion plan are the primary culprits... but I'll grant you "red teams" sounds sexier.

I've never meant to imply that the hawks are ideologically pure as well as technically perfect and the anti-war side is fully manipulated by a Lex-Lutherish, diabolic genious named Michael Moore... though it would be funny to see him in that outfit doing the mad, mad evil-genious laugh...

Hey... weren't we supposed to be talking about Valerie Plame?

*sigh* In trying to answer your posts, I seem to have gone WAY off topic... let me know what else you want to talk about, and I'll give it a shot.
__________________
mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
Reply With Quote
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