They Wonder Why We Support Israel

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by hamster of smite

Even so I find a bit odd considering that as far as I can tell Israel is not very economically self suficient and leans heavily on US economic/military aid.

Israel has increased ties with other growing powers for years now (I believe they had been the #2 arms seller to China throughout the 90's). Their relationship with China could serve them in the future.

Israel just recently made a potentially huge trade agreement with India. They are building solid relationships with two of the fastest growing powers in the world.

So, Israel will get the aid. They'll get weapons. Palestinians will still suffer at the hands of the Israeli government (which I think isn't entirely the case, but anyway). So once again, do you want us to have some say (as well as a strategic friend) there, or would you rather India and/or China take our place?

[hamster of smite]

If making sure US interests in the region were insured was a matter of importance to me I would agree with you Kevin, but in my humble opinion it's been US forgein policy that has made a bigger mess of the region then the mess it was already left in by British, French and other colonial powers, and whether the controlling interest in the region is US or Chinese/Indian I doubt very much that it's going to change things for the Palestinians or any of the other Arab peoples.

Call me an idealist, I probably am, but I feel that better things are possible in the Middle East but not if we keep going the way we have been going.

Making sure the only "Democracy" in the middle east is free to defend democracy and freedom, even if it means dispensing some good old fashioned hard knuckle justice and cracking a couple heads, isn't going to make people in the US any safer, if anything it's going to be the reverse, and our lifes aren't going to be improved by propagating US economic interests in the region either.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by hamster of smite

If making sure US interests in the region were insured was a matter of importance to me I would agree with you Kevin,

It's not simply about our own national interests. Certainly, it's better for the U.S. to deal with a democratic Middle East rather than a tyrannical and theological one. I think we've learned that lesson through years of dealing with lesser evils in that region, all for the sake of stability and business.

Beyond our own interests, preserving the last bastion of Jewish sovereignty and survival is also important. I also think Israel can serve as a model for other Middle Eastern nations on how to establish free markets (certainly more statist than our own, but still capitalism) that depends upon the skills and knowledge of her people, rather than the oil burried beneath you. Oil plays a big part in why Saudi Arabia is the way it is, and Israel is the way it is.

Of course Israel has received global support from other nations, and when it wasn't us it was Europe and by de facto the Soviet Union (some believe). And why the hell not? This is a nation comprised of people who have never truly been wanted anywhere else. I'm certain generation after generation of Europeans probably scoffed at the notion of anti-semitism being strong and prevalent. The pogroms were always in the past, and anti-semitism is never really what it once was. I think the Iranian prez has helped us realize that that's not the case, but we still must remain mindful of the position Israel is in.

but in my humble opinion it's been US forgein policy that has made a bigger mess of the region then the mess it was already left in by British, French and other colonial powers, and whether the controlling interest in the region is US or Chinese/Indian I doubt very much that it's going to change things for the Palestinians or any of the other Arab peoples.

You know what could change things for the Palestinians? If the Arab nations that speak so much of their plight actually did more about it, rather than funding Hamas and providing compensation to the families of suicide bombers.

Speaking of suicide bombers, it would help if the Palestinians stopped doing that. It would help if they would look to peaceful, non-violenr protest, rather than turning to radical Islam for their solutions. It would also help if their text books acknowledged Israel, and if they stoppd indoctrinating their children with violencand hatred towards Jews.

It would also, in my humble opinion, help if Arabs stopped blaming America for all of their problems, and started blaming the monarchies and dictatorships that think nothing of them. However that may be an unrealistic expectation, since we have so many apologists here in America who say the same crap.

Call me an idealist, I probably am, but I feel that better things are possible in the Middle East but not if we keep going the way we have been going.

Could you elaborate? I think the State department would be interested....

Making sure the only "Democracy" in the middle east is free to defend democracy and freedom, even if it means dispensing some good old fashioned hard knuckle justice and cracking a couple heads, isn't going to make people in the US any safer, if anything it's going to be the reverse, and our lifes aren't going to be improved by propagating US economic interests in the region either.

Ah, right....."democracy". Tell me, what makes Israel unfit in your eyes to be a true democracy? Could it be the fact that they actually have democratic elections decided by the people, rather than a collection of Islamo-fascists, like in Iran? Could it be that under that democracy, Arabs can vote, get elected to Knesset, and enjoy the HIGHEST standard of living out of any other country in the Middle East?? Which is it?

When Palestinians stop teaching their children that martyrdom is ideal, and that militarism and violence towards Israel is appropriate, maybe then violence will subside. I mean, seriously, what do you expect Israel to do? I thnk they often do things in an excessive fashion, and paranoia and fear can lead anybody to be rash. The desire to survive can bring that out of anybody. But if Israelis can't walk around without fearing that their bus might be blown up, or that they might get ripped apart by shrapnel while sitting in a cafe, than they must do what they can to protect themselves. It's the only way to counter a culture of death and suicide.

[Abcdxxxx]

About Israel's aid:


Israel agreed to phase out a large portion of it's aid. A great deal of it is styled like debt relief, and in a lot of ways, it is, since it goes to support and protect millions of exiles, as well as provide socialist programs to bedouins, and refugees of all stripe.

Another thing - 74% of the funds for military have to be spent within the United States. Israel's survival has always been very much intertwined with underground arms deals in exchange for oil, etc. and Israel continues to sell innovative war technology (including sci-fi sounding toys like heat seeking bullets that can round corners, band-aids which can act as temporary sutures, and tanks with anti-missile forcefields, all of which exist and are ready to use in battle right now). The way it is right now, when Israel sells their top of the line tank, the US State Dept. gets a say. Buffet just bought 80% of the shares in an Israeli company that provides steel work for the majority of the aviation industry, and most foriegn militaries. This site documents some other strategic benefits the US gets for it's money: http://www.geocities.com/d_elazar/USA/IsraelAidUSA.htm

Now say the US cuts out Israel's funding. In addition to the contingency plan involving China and India, support would come from Australia, several South American countries, Turkey, and on the downlow Pakinstan, and Iran. That leaves the US picking for scraps with Russia.

On Sabra & Shatilla:

srael was a third party. If Israel has persecuted anyone, Sabra Shatilla is the worst example.

The crimes were perpetrated by Lebanese Christian militia in retaliation for the massacre of Christians in Beir Mellat in N. Lebanon, Deir Ayach in N. Lebanon, Kab Elias in the Bekka, etc. as well as the assasination of the Lebanese PM. http://www.aceviper.net/members/cobra/intro.html

Lebanon had been cleansed of 1 million Christians. Could it be, that Israel, a country of refuseniks, and refugees sided with the Maronites for humanitarian reasons? Arabs perpretrated these crimes, and Arabs created the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla in the first place. Now let me ask you, why is there such a disporportionate mention of the S&S massacre compared to that of another 1982 incident, the massacre of 20,000 by Syrian president Hafez Al-Assad, in Hama? Sabra and Shatilla is the only one you can indirectly blame on a Jew, and that's the only reason you've been exposed to this story, and not stories like the massacre and destruction of the Christian village of Damour on January 9, 1976 at the hands of the Popular Liberation Front for the Liberation of Palestine. This event happened BEFORE Israel's incursion, and before the checkpoints. It's well documented. http://www.cedarland.org/warpixs2_1.html The PLO had 18,000 militia in Lebanon plus another 6,000 mercenaries on loan from Saddam, and Qaddafhi. The accounts of the PLO in Lebanon are so gory, that even the horrors of Sabra Shatilla don't compare. Nobody cares that Muslims attacked Shatila and Burj-El 3 years later. It's just not fun unless you can blame Israel.

In addition to the Embassy murder you mentioned, there were daily shellings down into the Kibbutzes. I was visiting family at the time, and I can tell you the air raid sirens were so frequent we had to sleep inside the bomb shelters. What you're calling "attempts to solidify power" are defense measures. If Israel wanted "power" they would have taken Damascus, and Cairo when they had the chance. They attempted to stabilize Southern Lebanon, not "take it".

Finally, Jews are not collonialists in Israel, they're natives of the land.