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Originally Posted by mburbank
Preech, get a grip.
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Ok... I'm back now.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
I'm in favor of trying the Hezbollah fighters Israel caught, as they are suggesting they will.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
Alphaboy (your new nickname),
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Which I think I like... It's not entirely disrespectful... kind of like "Neo" but more "Alpha..." Plus, you can do fun things with it, like you've proven so aptly...
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Originally Posted by mburbank
I believe I finally begin to understand some of your position. Not agree, mind you, just understand it.
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Well, that's a good start.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"I support cluster bombs. Torture, too... and not just the playing loud music variety, either."
-Alphaboy.
Good to know. It makes me feel much better about disliking you.
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See, this is where I was thinking you were confusing me with Abcdxxx... You dislike me now? I really thought we had a mutual respect thing going... Hopefully, this little rift I've started can be all fixed up by me explaining the differences between the me I've always been and the me with which you now so vehemently disagree... and apparently dislike...
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Originally Posted by mburbank
Kev, remember what you were just asking me about what it would be like if you brought a right wing marine to "My house" and he said a lot of horrid shit, would I respect him? Well, here you go, except Alphaboy isn't a marine. So I'll just turn the question back to you. Having said "I support cluster bombs. Torture, too... and not just the playing loud music variety, either." do you still think Alphaboy has anything to bring to the table? I would say I think he still does.
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Well, thanks for that, anyways...
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Originally Posted by mburbank
But like I said, I have less doubts about thinking there's something wromng with him aside from being an oppinionated prick.
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Y'know, I meant for my statements to be provocative, but not so much as to make people hate me... Now I have to dig myself out of the "opinionated prick" hole.
I've said this stuff before. Maybe with less vehemence... I will try my best to patch this up, but I'm still a bit puzzled as to where I've suddenly crossed a line.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"Take control of a country, uniform your soldiers and STOP HIDING BEHIND YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN, for God's sake!" and " Lebanon has been a hell hole since the sixties because the Lebanese want it that way.
-Alphaboy
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I stand by that. The first part is what would be required for us to adhere to the Geneva Conventions. The second part is pure and simple fact. Well, maybe conjecture that is obvious to me based on pure and simple fact.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
If the Lebanese women and Children Hesbollah is hiding behind want Lebanon to be a hell hole, then aren't they really standing in front of Hezbollah?
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Ok... I'm not sure what that means. I'm thinking it was meant to be funny, but maybe you messed it up. The answer to your question is yes, but your question adds nothing. You were trying to suppose a paradox, but I think you phrased it wrong. Were we still friends, I might try to sort out what your paradox might have inferred, but I'm not sure I owe that to someone that dislikes me so easily.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
And that being the case, why shouldn't Israel blow the entire place to kingdom come with all the people in it? That's what they want, Alphaboy.
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I'm really very sure I addressed that option. I'm left to assume you were feeling facetious when you wrote this, either that or you were responding as you read along. Just to play along, my position is that every option for peace in Lebanon over the last forty years has been rejected in favor of just more unrest. Yes, we have been offerred excuses... tribalism, Western Imperialism... all that crap you said you were tired of hearing...
Frankly, I am tired of it too.
Why shouldn't Israel blow the rest of the MidEast to Hell? Is that really your question? Are you ascribing that viewpoint to me? Allright, I'll tell you why: Israel and finally the US are doing what is right, regardless... mostly... of the cost, minimalized as it is by technology and planning, for two reasons... one primary and one a lucky side-effect. Primarily, Israel and finally America are fighting the War on Terror as a defensive measure. 9/11 proved that ignoring the "troubles" in the Middle East weren't going to cause them to go away. Responding half-assedly wasn't going to cut it either.
This is symbolic gangland warfare that makes our crips and bloods look like kindergardners that are getting along swimmingly, Max. Even the biased news coverage of current events can't help but let it slip that, for our enemy, "impressions," "insults" and "positions" mean more than actual deaths, even when we are talking on a scale of MILLIONS. Think about that, my soft-hearted, quasi-liberal friend.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"Hezzbollah was not thrown off by Israel's attacks. They were upset at what they called Israel's "over-reaction" to their provocation. Why? They don't want REAL war. They know they don't stand a chance in one of those."
-Alphaboy
So, you're suggestion is? If not total annihilation, and I can't see where your argument tends against it, "REAL" war, the killing of every single armed person, and then I assume occupation. Do you see that working, or am I misreading you? If you were King of israel, what would you do, I shudder to ask.
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Well, Israel has no king... but I'm not gonna catfight like that with you on this. Were I made to lead this fight, I can tell you I would not do it with my head in the clouds. I would start by doing much more of what I have already been doing: READING ABOUT MY ENEMY. Are you laboring under the impression that America started this? I used to believe that we had somehow forced their hand. I still admit that we should have worked harder to understand what we were in for when we utilized the MidEast in WWI, WWII, and the Cold War, but I've come to realize that we did not, in fact, impose our world upon an altogether unwilling Arabic battlefield... at least not in the way I'd once assumed.
If America is the cause of this war, it's more in the manner of your neighbor burning down your house because you purchased a nicer car than his. We make them look bad, and that pisses them off. Rather than calm down and satisfy their jealousy through self-improvement, they choose to simply stay mad. Yes, I'm over-simplifying it. It's an analogy, and that's what you do with analogies. You reject this sort of explanation because you don't see such loss of life making sense on that level. I am offering you the opportunity to understand how it makes sense when explained this way, but I'd roll around and piss all over myself with glee were you to offer up your own explanation of our enemy's mindset. Really. I'm answering your questions...
Anyhoo, your question was "what would I do," right? I would take terror off the table. To do so, I would need to learn how and why it works, then do whatever it takes to make everyone involved in this dispute understand it's just not a viable alternative to more-or-less peaceful, democratic dispute. It's the "whatever it takes" part on which, I assume, we disagree, right?
Max, do you know this is not the first time Israel has invaded Lebanon? Do you know that Beruit has been the focal point of a civil war that's pretty much been going on since the partition? Do you know that most of Arafat's power derived from his involvement in that civil war? What DO you know about this war, Max?
I only ask because I am truly interested in your visceral reaction to my position on this subject. I am interested because I really do like and respect you. I'm actually very hurt that the feeling is no longer mutual. I favor a war with all options available against an enemy that has been PROVEN by history to have never wrestled with such moral concerns. Maybe our disagreement here comes down to what we have already pegged as our basic, unalterable opinions of the human race... I believe in our inherent goodness where you do not.
Yes, I know that, coming from a guy that's advocating torture of children in minefields, that statement might seem a bit questionable. Hyperbole aside, what I am asking for here is simply that we do not attempt to fight this war with our hands tied behind our backs. You want this to be a fair fight if it is to happen at all. I say fuck that. We are better at this, so the only way to make it fair is to hinder our capabilities. I reject that entirely, because doing so will only drag the killing, maiming and general ridiculousness out even longer.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"We are fighting brutal, inhuman barbarians. We will not win by fighting like modern, intelligent and sensitive people."
-Alphatollah
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Good one...
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Originally Posted by mburbank
So, what should we fight like? Brutal inhuman barbarians as well, or something more nuanced.
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Why let them know ahead of time? We are having a hard enough time figuring out what we are up against. Why fax them a copy of our mission statement? Again, I understand that you feel we are all disgusting individuals chained to morality only by rigid social structures from which we would flee on a murderous rampage at the first opportunity, but I don't agree with you. I believe in people. I believe in our future, and I believe it will be free.
You believe our soldiers are natural born killing machines, chomping at the bit to be let loose with iron maidens on darker colored children.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
Brutal semi-human proto-barbarians. Principled human like soldiers with a dash of barbarianism.
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You don't trust us. I do. You believe we all blindly follow an admistration you despise. I don't.
I know that what separates us from animals is our compassion, and I know that's a complex thing to work out in the real world. You want nuance? There it is. How can we do the right thing the right way when the terms of victory are set by those that see compassion as a weakness to be exploited?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
Since they started it, can't we fight exactly the same way they do? How should we fight? I'd make a guess as to what level of inhuman barbarism you're good with, but I'm so busy wringing my hands.
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How do you propose we level the playing field, Max? Are our Marines dressing up in burkahs and blowing up their Mosques during morning prayers? No. A Terror War is a war of public relations. It's a war of, as I said before, "impressions," "insults" and "positions." THEY are the ones that decided people must die over such petty things. Which people do YOU choose, Max? Our people, or their's?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
" Look closely at how they are fighting and you will see their methods should only be deplored."
Alphabismal
I do. Totally. I also deplore ours, especially when they sink to the inhuman, barbaric level of theirs.
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Allrighty. Let's look at how you thnk we are sinking to their level, shall we?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
Like weapons specifically designed to kill indiscriminantly. I also dislike weapons that make really big explosions that kill all sorts of people anywhere around the person you're aiming at, but they are less barbaric, and while I deplore them, I don't deplore them as much and see that their use is sometimes unavoidable even if your aim is not speciffically to terrorize your opponent.
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Whoa there, buddy... Don't you see you're hitting the nail on the head? Sure, these methods are terrible, but if this war is unavoidable (and it is) and if the rules are set by the enemy (and they are) isn't the aim for either side to "terrorize your opponent" into victory? If we "terrorize" our enemy into peace, isn't that better than them "terrorizing" us into what THEY want?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
See, I like to be better than the 'enemy', even if that's what they want. If they wanted me to shower, I'd do it, even though it's what they want. Cause I like showering. It's okay to do something a bad person wants you to do if it's a good thing. Them wanting you to do it doesn't make it bad. Like not using cluster bombs. Although maybe they want me to use clusster bombs. Crazy people are hard to figure. That's why I don't want my si{d}e to go crazy.
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I totally see your point. See how we came right back to your trust issues? You are placing your distrust of your neighbors on a higher plane than what's actually going on. You may not see it yet, but our culture is markedly different from that of the still oppressed portion of the world. This is one of those times that I would love to be handing you a book. Unfortunately, now that you have decided to hate me, I'm reluctant to suggest any titles as you'd likely avoid them, being that you hate me now. I'm left to hope you'll find them by accident, I suppose...
Are we really in such danger of "going crazy," Max? I've read the "One Minute Manager," so I'll take a moment to praise you for falling in with "our side," but let's get back to this slippery slope where we all become raving lunatics at the drop of a hat, Ok? I have long ago gone on record with my feelings regarding the option of torture being made available to "our side" as well as theirs. I'm for it. I make no secret of it, and I've already explained why. Now that I'm adding cluster bombs, you are calling me out on my rationale.
In response, I'll call you out on your opinon of the men and women that constitute our fighting force. I've yet to do this directly, so please, give me a little latitude, as I'd like to do this in the form of yet another analogy, Ok? Being a libertarian (You're welcome, Kevin) you know I am against the drug war on principle. I respect the Hell out of choices and our power, as enlightened humans, to wield them virtually without fear for the consequences, as I believe the natural consequences ingrained into the fabric of life, when combined with our innate, though admittedly often errant, abilities to guide our paths to ever more prosperous places, cause things to work out for the best in the end, hopefully (...and generally, in fact.)
At least in my opinion...
The base principle behind the war on drugs, as it is prosecuted here in America anyway, is that certain substances radiate EVIL... substances such as a joint stuck under the back seat of a Nova. Under our laws, were Ted Kennedy (a wholesome and upright man if ever there was one) catching a ride with you in your Nova, he would be commiting a crime because of that joint you lost back in college. This situation, to me, is stupid.
So, too, is your view of torture. You seem to believe that the availability of torture to our troops is the same as it's rampant abuse on every level imagineable. I just don't see where that slippery slope starts for you, Max. If I see any slippery slopes here, I'd think you didn't like killing or anything close to it being used in any situation, including war... at least if it's Bush's war.
Let's say it's not his war. Let's say this was 1979 and it was bizarro Jimmy Carter's war. What now? Given the benefit of knowing where all this was going, what would be our rules of engagement, Max? Let's say we HAD to fight... How could we? Were your fellow Americans all that different back then? Could we have trusted them with the tools of war back then?
Let's switch perspectives for a moment... How in the fuck is torturing a terrorist any better or worse than blowing his freaking head off in the field of battle? Where are these lines drawn? Which is more morally repugnant to you, Max: a laser sighted smart-bomb taking out out an arms depot during an Al Quaeda meeting or the water-boarding of a scumbag that gets the location of that depot and the time of that meeting?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"They. They they they they they."
-Alphabits
Okay, I get it, you don't like them. Me neither. But I think your idea of 'them' is all mishy mashy. There's the Them we agree on, real life terrorists with weapons in hand ready to kill anyone anytime and laugh. But then you have this other them, which is people who live near the boogetman them and don't rise up against the boogeyman them, which is everybody in the countries where the Boogeymen are. And probably they don't like us that much, and seriosuly, lets be reasonable, no matter how much some of them blame the boogeymen terrorists, if we blow up your house and family and lace your olive grown with cluster bombs, it's hard not to dislike us at least a little.
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Ok. Let's move on to that.
Unfortunately, we're gonna have to get all "nuanced" again. Take away the "everybody else." Leave just the terrorists. That's a nice clean war, right? Y'know, Max, I've got a buddy in the Gaza Strip with a line on a sweet curator job in a Holocaust Museum. Interested? We're talking six figures here, dude. Moving expenses and a signing bonus? What's it gonna take to get you to move your family into Hell, Max?
In WWII there were no innocent Americans. Our grandparents either fought in the war or worked and sacrificed in support of the war. The same can be said of the British, The Italians, the Germans or the Japanese.
This war is no different, at least on the side of "they." We have the luxury of fighting this fight from the point of view of the largest economy in the history of the world wielding the most powerful military force in the history of the world. "They" don't.
We know we are on the right side of this war, don't we, Max? We know they are mistaken in their belief that they are going to prevail, to whatever ends. We are demonstrating a measure of respect... a considerable one if you look at the big picture.... for human life, as well as a general disdain for human suffering. "They" have demonstrated nothing even close to that, in fact, "they" are opposed to us in that moral stance.
Is that not true, Max?
What do you accept as true in this war, Max, as far as that goes? I am truly, and respectfully, interested.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
So, while your "Utterly" destroying them for thir war crimes (The boogeymen, I'm assuming) how many of the lesser them are you willing to plow under? Say, if we could utterly destroy the Bogeymen, would it be all right if in the process 10% of the rest of the population got made into human pot pie? How about 50%? Say we had to kill everyone, and I'm thinking that's possible, because killing the bad guy is a game it's hartd to stop.
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There you go again... You big silly.
Such a lack of faith in your fellow humans. I won't rehash this, as I know you are unmoveable in your distrust of humanity, but I thought this deserved to be pointed out...
A question instead: If we win this war without doing what no war in history has ever done, wiping out entirely everyone associated with our enemy, how will you parse that?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
Cause you're making more bad guys by being all barbaric and whatnot. And then you need to kill the new ones, cause if you don't, it's not utterly.
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Will the madness ever stop?!
Can you conceive a point at which the bad guys start to have problems with recruitment? Oh... wait... now I'm just feeding you material, ain't I? WE are having problems with recruitment, isn't that one of your arguments against the war? Funny how it always works out that you are worried that we, somehow, might be the REAL enemy. Isn't that odd?
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Originally Posted by mburbank
You've got your mad up, your all afroth at the mouth, take the bull by the horns. Are you willing to kill them all? You seem manly enough.
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Well, while I appreciate the misplaced compliment, my whole point here is that I am not, infact, all that big on harming others. I have accepted that his war is worth fighting in order to achieve a future worth creating, but I cannot accept dragging it out for any longer than absolutely necessary. I'm all about saving innocent lives here, Max, and I believe you really are, too. I think we have an honest disagreement on how to achieve that goal... a disagreement, in an unfortunate turn of events, that has caused you to despise me... hopefully just temporarily.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"I want to see the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia and South and Central America joining our modern, free, humane and civilized world. I want that so badly that I like it when I see the assholes standing in the way of that being tortured, phosphorized and cluster bombed. "
-Alphamale
Uhm... heh heh... anybody ever tell you you're cute when you get crazy? No? Huh. So now it's not just okay to cluster bomb and torture, you "like" it. It's not a neccesary evil, it's a pleasure. You know how movements with the best possible aims end up going all wiggy French Revolution style?
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You questioned my likening of terrorists to animals before. Given their goals, I just don't see them as human. While I don't make it common practice to torture and maim non-humans (far from it, in fact,) I really do not like the practice of human slavery living one second more into this century. I have been entirely consistent in this regard. I am touchy on the subject, and I admit to having relatively extreme views on it, hence my posiiton on immigration and foreign economic policy.
I am simply not willing to "mish mash" a very real war where very real people are suffering and dying every day because we have "mish mashed" this for 40 years. I really do think we are both aligning with a higher plane here, but I just believe you are failing to see the larger picture.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"Those barbaric acts reflect perfectly my will to finish this and move on to a better tomorrow. "
AlphabaCRAZY
That's why.
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Yes, it is. I hope I have done an adequate job of explaining to you why I think so. I know I'm not in any danger of changing your mind on this for many reasons. The only reason I have responded at all is because I didn't like the idea of you writing me off for this.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"I know our enemy, and they are the enemy of the modern world."
-Alphabawaaaaaah?
Gosh. You know them. You're so... so... manly. I just feel safe in your arms. You do the thinking. I can sleep better at night knowing you are out their protecting me from the enemy you know by posting on message boards about getting off on torturing them.
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Like you, I've been saving the best for last.
I understand the difference between me saying before that I wanted to keep up at the very least the illusion that torture was available as an option, for psychological reasons, and the Israelis actually littering Lebanon with cluster bombs. One is a potential disaster, and the other is a very real tragedy. I've only hinted so far as to my perspective on that seemingly irreconcilable moral duality. The hints I have given you should lead you to believe that I am rejecting the near automatic label of "innocent" that has been affixed to the forehead of every farmer in South Lebanon.
Is that so hard to deal with? Why?
I can't stand it anymore. At the risk of being tagged Abcdxxx's fellow traveler and thus ascribed every seedy capability he's ever employed, PLEASE READ UP, MAX. Pick up a freakin book. You may not want to understand the people and the history into which you are diving, but if you are going to have an opinion here it really does need to be based in something deeper than what it is for you now. That's just as honest as I can be. This has NOT been going on forever. You are not an ignorant redneck that could honestly swallow all the easy lies surrounding this conflict. You CAN fully grasp what has transpired in the past 100 years, and I honestly think you will find it all more compelling than any movie you have ever seen.
Go get a book. NOW.
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Originally Posted by mburbank
"A future without a War on Terror is the nightmare. Don't kid yourselves, and treat this just a little seriously, Ok?"
-Alphababoon
OK. Ok. I will. Shhhhhh, now. Put down the lamp. You're giving yourself a nosebleed.
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Northshore Mall is right there on your way home. There is a Barnes and Nobles there. Tonight, stop. Find a book of your choice that describes the history of the conflict in the Middle East. I really don't think you can go wrong.