Islam: Harmless Cab Drivers or PURE EVIL?

[ScruU2wice]

so your saying that you should read the koran in passages and out of context like you did up there, abcdxxx? instead maybe you should think of it as a whole book not just a collection of passages that you can pluck out interpert as you will

idk if your trying to say the problem is with the people who interpert the koran, or what. but if you sensibly think it out and read the passages as a whole then you'll that people incorrectly twist the meaning of the koran to justify there actions.

As for the fact of respect of women, I learned to respect women more from islam then life in america where the media shows nothing but women used as objects of sexuallity. same goes for violence; watching some cartoons and other shows make violence seem like the only answer in certain situations.

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - those words are disturbing in any context...otherwise, I would agree. What context is there to believe these words are being twisted?

If you were lucky enough to grow up with progressive Islamic values towards women, then you should take your love and respect for women back to your mosque and demand they alter their teachings to reflect a modern society.

You can't equate treating women as second class citizens, lower beings, or even as slave labor in some cases, with treating women as sex objects. Believe me, the western world treats women like shit, but it's no comparison.

[ScruU2wice]

then you should take your love and respect for women back to your mosque and demand they alter their teachings to reflect a modern society.

pft... in a perfect world
BTW my mosque is where i learned it.

I haven't studied all of the quotes you cited but as i posted before the one about menstration has nothing to do with man over women. Its about women not prayin or reading koran while they are menstrating, i don't know why you put that in there, abcdxxxx.

regardless of that Islam in general cannot be blamed for the actions of men in saudia arabia and other islamic countries. Calling Islam "PURE EVIL" is just being ignorant and stereotyping everyone in an extremely large group. As a matter of a fact in some parts of pakistan its common for women to hit their husbands from what my father tells me, so i guess there's all kinds...

[Stabby]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

but what really sickens me about this thred is the title. "PURE EVIL?" WTF is that suppose to be a joke? are the few billion people who follow this religon minions of satan? and the fact that we shudn't care about the muslim religon or bother to be sensitive about it because the people in it are violent... How much exactly did you drink stabby?

The thread title is a JOKE. It was just to get people to read it. Relax. I remind you this forum is named i-MOCKERY. I'm sure there are plenty of good Pokemon forums you can join if you don't want to read anything offensive. So don't get so hung up on the title.



http://pewforum.org/docs/index.php?DocID=26

Here's some interesting fugures showing the public's perception of Islam being a violent religion has gone up significantly. The public's view on whether Islam encourages violence has almost doubled. And 24% of the public believes that all Muslims are anti-American.

Bush said during the 2000 campaign that he didn't believe one could get into heaven if not a Christian. Anyone think that next to the oil and the setteling of old scores or whatever, that this war seems like it might be a clash of civilzations? Christian vs. Islam?

[ScruU2wice]

I'm sure there are plenty of good Pokemon forums you can join if you don't want to read anything offensive.

Again, in a perfect world.

i really dont ever get jokes. ever...

i really can't do anything about all those people thinking islam is a violent religon, but i can tell you not everyone of us have a vest full of anthrax or bombs in our shoes. Islam is also not a religon based on beating women sensless and slave labor.

Though when i visited mekkah, i was told that women did have to cover themselves or they'd be heckeled at and be threatened. However, i was also told that men couldn't wear shorts or other things that revieled there legs or suffer the same consiquences. but that's what i was told :/

Whatever the koran says about the treatment of women should be governed by some sorts of common sense. just like the bible's views on slavery aren't followed literally

[Jeanette X]

BTW, I already said most every religions scriptures have misogynistic sections. Sadly the Muslim religion refuses to modernize their intepretation of these sections the way other religion have. I said that already. You comprehended it I hope?

So why doesn't the Muslim religion modernize? Whats your theory?

Okay Jeanette - You really believe being a misgonyst is an Arabic trait? Holy shit, do you realize how much more offensive that is then just saying "Islam oppresses women" ? You really don't do you.

No no no. *sigh* I don't mean that. Being misogynist is a western trait too. I'm saying that Islam isn't what causes misogyny in the Arab world, the same way that Christianity isn't what caused the misogyny that led to The Burning Times.

Al - Baqara 2: 222 "They questioned thee (O Mohammad) concerning menstruation, Say it is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not unto them till they are cleansed."

So what? Plenty of people are put off by the idea of sex during menstruation. I believe that the OT mentions it as being forbidden.

If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire to you, but utter customary speech And stay in your houses
I don't understand this passage.

Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any way you want."
According to dictionary.com, tillage is cultivation of land, or land that has been tilled. How should this be interpreted?

Yes, the beating thing is disconcerting, but I found a Muslim apologetics site explaining it. If I can just dig up the url...

[Perndog]

Apologetics are just people who spend their lives setting up new spurious justifications for shitty premises after each one gets knocked down.

[El Blanco]

Scru, no offense, but someone sporting the Bros. MacMannus in his avatar shouldn't get so uppity about people making a joke about his religion being violent.

[Big Papa Goat]

Here's some interesting fugures showing the public's perception of Islam being a violent religion has gone up significantly. The public's view on whether Islam encourages violence has almost doubled. And 24% of the public believes that all Muslims are anti-American.

What does this prove besides Americans are getting dumber by the minute? And who didn't know that already?

[VinceZeb]

Yeah, Goat, Americans are getting stupider by the minute. Where the fuck would they pick up on Islam being violent? I mean, we see all those Buddhists bombing the U.N building. And how about those damn Hindi that flew the planes into the Trade Towers? And all those Jews that wouldn't let the girls out of the burning school because they didn't have their little beanie caps on. We know how evil those Jews are, huh?

I don't see where ANYONE could get the notion that Islam may have a bit of a rough streak in it. My God, I just don't see it!

[Abcdxxxx]

Scru - How else do you explain the poor treatment of women in Islamic states? Even Muslim's cite the Koran for the guidelines they put on women. Can you really say it's a coincedence?

The Koran calls menstruation an ILLNESS! According to the Koran, every woman with the ability to give birth becomes ILL on a monthly basis. Meaning a functioning woman is viewed in poor health, diseased, and sick...and in ancient times, an illness meant evil. I'll agree, parts of the Koran are taken out of context - not by me, but by the followers of Islam who use these words to oppress women....and the fact is, they do. As a religious duty. In parts of the world a woman is stoned for going out in public uncovered. It's not even the extremist act we'd like to think it should be. Not every Muslim beats and rapes their women.... but it's scary knowing that in places where these crimes are rampant and socially acceptable, it's the Islamic scriptures themselves that act as a guide, and it's the Koran they turn to when defending their actions.

Calling a woman "tillage" refers to them as property. Land is something you own. Look, put the Koranic debates aside, and realize that this stuff is being used to hurt women, even if it was never intended to.

[Jeanette X]

Well I for one don't exactly feel well when I get my period. Menstrual cramps and diarahea.

Vince apparently is not aware of the Buddhists extremists commiting acts of violence against Christians in Sri Lanka, nor of Hindus (not Hindis, you idiot) killing Muslims in Gujarat, nor of the rape of Indian-occupied Kashmir, nor of the human rights violations in Palestine.
Fucking moron.

[ScruU2wice]

How else do you explain the poor treatment of women in Islamic states? Even Muslim's cite the Koran for the guidelines they put on women. Can you really say it's a coincedence?

Which islamic states? i have aunts, cousins and nieces in pakistan, saudia arabia, and turkey. they're not being beaten or horribly persectued. The women in my family wouldn't want to where spaghetti straps or have premerital sex, even if it was allowed. And i know there are women in pakistan that have premerital sex that dont get stoned to death or persectued. about citing lines from the koran, people twist the meaning of all holy books to fit their purposes, that can't be the fault of islam in general

[Abcdxxxx]

jeanette - the supposed human rights violations against muslims in Israel aren't about religious oppression caused by religious teachings.

so a man has a right to treat you like a lesser human being because you feel shitty during your monthly cycle? or because your body naturally bleeds? good lord.

scru - maybe you're just not aware of all the misogyny we're talking about? also - how the hell do you know what the women in your family really want? devout islam doesn't allow them the freedom to make a choice without reprecusions, and you know it. it's a religion that outright rejects the notion of changing with the times or accepting societal progress. it rejects the rights of others to follow their own beliefs that contradict the koran. it's not that the religion itself is bad, or evil or wrong, it's the methods in which it's practiced that are the problem.

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Jeanette X

So why doesn't the Muslim religion modernize? Whats your theory?

I'm not a Muslim, but I do have a couple weeks of Middle Eastern Studies under my belt. Plus, I never post in this board, so I'll give it a shot:

It's my understanding that Muslims believe that the koran (quran?) represents the final word of god, as documented by Mohammad, the final prophet. They also believe that Christians, Jews, etc. have recieved the word as well, but didn't get it on paper fast enough, and thus the word was corrupted a little bit.

Perhaps they don't want to modernize because they feel it would be marring the word of god by changing the koran in any way.

[ScruU2wice]

how the hell do you know what the women in your family really want?

well it turns out some of my cousins and aunts come and visit me in chicago, and they tell me that theyd never where the type of clothes they see here because they think it looks slutty. and when i visit them in pakistan they talk about how they know people that have sex before there married and they think its dead wrong.

My mom has been in america for 20 some years and she doesnt wear sleevless shirts because she believes it shows too much skin. My cousins are less conservative they dont have a problem with wearing saris which show there midrifs. Then there are people here and in canada who want to wear burqas and cover there faces.

maybe you're just not aware of all the misogyny we're talking about?

Maybe your right, but all the people i talk to think that all muslim countries are political prisons for woman. and all women are forced to be muslims and they are forced to dress in long black robes and expose none of themselves. Im not saying that the treatment of women like this is non existent, but this is absolutely in no way the majority.


edit: "quran" is the way i learned how to spell it but i didnt want people to get confused. I think muslims are hesitant to modernize is because the koran was already mis interperted (due to punctation and what not) and it led to the creation of the religon of qadiyanism (sp?) which believes that mohammad pbuh was not the last prophet. Muslims do not believe in this religon and consider them blasphemers. thanx for bringing that up Dr. boogie

[Jeanette X]

Originally Posted by Dr. Boogie

Perhaps they don't want to modernize because they feel it would be marring the word of god by changing the koran in any way.

Then no Christian country would ever modernize because many Christians believe the Bible to be infalliable.

so a man has a right to treat you like a lesser human being because you feel shitty during your monthly cycle? or because your body naturally bleeds?

Did I say that? Did I?! Fuck no! People who know me well avoid me when I'm on the rag, because I have bad mood swings and tend to want to be left alone anway. All it said was to let women alone, not treat them poorly.

[Abcdxxxx]

so what? women are still being oppressed by islamic nations using the muslim religion as a pretext.

female genital mutilation. stonings. denying women education, and the right to use higher degrees. honor killings, forced marriages. imposed servitude. home imprisonment. rape punishment. restricted movement. humiliation, and disfiguration.

you mentioned pakistan where the laws of qisas and diyat give men the cover to commit hundreds of honor killings every year, without reprecussion. women are often treated as second class citizens due to the zina law, passed in 1979. women are supposed to have equal rights there, but these loopholes are granted to muslims, in adherence with islamic law. these crimes aren't being commited by arabs, they're being commited by islamic arabs. if one were to put any value on united nations studies, their claim is that 50 % of women in pakistan are abused, and 99% are mentally or verbally abused. even assumng these numbers are inflated, it's still obviously a rampant problem.

jeanette - i'm sorry you're difficult during your period, but how is that relevant?

[ScruU2wice]

so what? women are still being oppressed by islamic nations using the muslim religion as a pretext.

female genital mutilation. stonings. denying women education, and the right to use higher degrees. honor killings, forced marriages. imposed servitude. home imprisonment. rape punishment. restricted movement. humiliation, and disfiguration.

ok so i admit these things are happening in islamic countries and people are doing it in the name of the islam, but how can islam stop them with out jepordizing its own identity? We believe what is in the koran is the word of god and changing the word of god is blasphemy. IF the koran is changed to it will spark chaos in the islamic world. I can't change how people interpret the koran or other islamic texts and i'm not willing to go against god to change his words. Common sense has to play a certain role in all of this and how can you blame islam for people lacking common sense.

if one were to put any value on united nations studies, their claim is that 50 % of women in pakistan are abused, and 99% are mentally or verbally abused

i think if everyone on the world was surveyed 99% of the people would say that they have been verbally abused. You know if its so hard to find al-qaeda cells in pakistan, how can you accurately get a demographic of women that are abused in pakistan? Plus if women are so gagged and silenced how can they openly take a survey?

[Abcdxxxx]

Common sense? It's Shari'a law imposed and defended by Islam.

Please don't belittle the horror of honor killings by saying these people merely lack common sense.

It's bad enough that you're sitting in the United States writing this all off because your aunts and cousins are happy. There are Islamic women who aren't happy. There are girls in Iran who DO want to wear spaghetti straps, and dress like Britney Spears. Do you think they should be beaten for it?

[ScruU2wice]

and im admitting that people are mistreated, but your making it sound like every man in islam is born to rape a women. and every women is getting raped this very second. im not saying that these travesties don't exist, but your saying to change all of islam as opposed to stopping the people who do these things. what would be your solution to this, abcdxxxx? what would you do if you were in my seat? women are being horribly treated, so i should stop what im doing change my whole religon instead of stopping the people who are commiting these acts

Shari'a law was not sent down by God. people interperted it and made all these horrible laws. just because it bosts the name of islam doesnt mean that all muslims believe it and it embodies the essence of the religon...

[Abcdxxxx]

well a good start would be to stop trying to downplay it.

judaism and christianity have managed to grow out of stoning people. why do you think changing the part of islam that encourages mistreatment of women is going to comprimise the beauty and integrity of the religion you practice?

shari'a law is growing in popularity but the primary source for islamic law is still the koran.... which contains language that is being used to mistreat women amongst others on a daily basis.

[Big Papa Goat]

I don't think Islam is inheritly more violent, but they didn't ever have the secular Renaissance that the West had. Chirstianity, or more specifically Europe grew out of their religiously inspired violence and opression because of the increased secularism in government and daily affairs. Islam has never been a paticularly violent religion, but their mistreatment of women and general fundamentalism (in theocratic Islamic states) does show how their religion and soceity has failed to progress as much as Western Christian civilization has.

And speaking of violence and opression of women, what about witch hunts? Didn't Germany have around 100 000 women killed for witchcraft in some century? And the Spanish Inquisition killed more than a few people. And lets not forget the Crusades, where many were killed, enslaved or burned out of house and home in the name of Christianity.

Considering when the witch hunts took place, perhaps it was the 18th century Enlightenment rather than the Renaissance that really secularized and civilized the West. And of course the Islamic world hasn't had any Enlightenment era.


In conclusion- Secularism hasn't set in for Islamic nations yet. If secularism hadn't set in for the West, we'd be just as bad, or worse. Therefore, too much religion is bad, whether it is Islam, Buddhism, Christianity or whatnot. The question is, why hasn't the Islamic world secularized?

[VinceZeb]

Now Jeanette, I know you are a woman so that makes you irrational and emotional in your responses, but we are not talking about what other religions do. Americans don't see that on their TVs. We are talking about the American public's perception of Islam. People like like Americans should think of Islam like they would Christanity or any other religion when in fact our country has been attacked by MUSLIMS.

So please, don't try to think of yourself as more scholarly than I. The time you do that takes away from the time you should be washing and ironing.

[Blue]

Oppression of women there.. IS vince MUSLIM

Using the women oppression thing is crap. Just as many christians beat there wives as muslims. I hate all religion in general. Esp those fucks who hand you shit on the street and scream at you. (sorry for side tracking.)