Determinism Revisited

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

I don't endorse behaviorism.

You said that we manipulate determinism, but to be more exact, we manipulate people's personalities. I don't see what's so hard to follow.

"Manipulate determinism"? When did I say that? I'm not even sure what the hell that would mean.

What I did say was that by manipulating people through their personalities we acknowledge that some measure of determinism exists.

[The One and Only...]

What I'm saying is that there does not need to be a connection between personality and determinism. Personality is something which cannot be avoided - if someone were totally unpredictable, that would still be a personality trait.

I'd hate to get all analytic on your ass, but I think we might be operating under different impressions of just what personality is.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

It's important because our entire justice system is set up on the premise of free will--the idea that people can freely choose and, as such, are responsible for each and every one of their actions (unless of course, utter insanity can be proven). If free will is an illusion, "justice" and "responsibility" are also illusions.

While I can see your point, some would argue that religion, specifically the Ten Commandments, are a major part of the basis for our legal system. Yet, I've seen religious documentaries where priests and rabbi alike have said that "the apple" is actually a metaphor for self-consciousness/identity. With self-consciousness taken into account, can the idea of "free will" be far behind? And so it seems we have two opposing forces at work in our justice system.


I see our legal system also, in part, as a means to keeps an orderly society. In that respect, it may further be seen as a means to keep in power those that are already in power. The powerful, in most cases, are the rich, n'est-ce pas? I know I'm going out on a limb but follow my argument just for fun. And so, it seems that the legal system is a means for the rich to stay rich by more or less hired protection ... i.e. the local police. Have you ever noticed how the police respond to the nice area of town faster than the bad part of town? That being said, what are we left with but a legal system that basically supports the current status quo with all the inherent paradigms. Is that "free will" in it's purest form?

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

What I'm saying is that there does not need to be a connection between personality and determinism. Personality is something which cannot be avoided - if someone were totally unpredictable, that would still be a personality trait.

I'd hate to get all analytic on your ass, but I think we might be operating under different impressions of just what personality is.

Ok, we could debate personality theory forever, so I'll rephrase my original statement so that we don't get off-topic.

We all seem to acknowledge a type of determinism in that we know it's possible to exercise some measure of control over other people. We've all seen the results: techniques like behaviorism and subliminal advertising work, and they work very well. If we agree that people can be manipulated, just where the hell does the free will come into play?

The irony, I said, is that we suddenly reverse it when we think of ourselves. "Nothing controls my decisions! I have free will!"

[kellychaos]

Couldn't one say that what we have is basically a quasi-"free will"? What I mean to say is that although we have the social paradigms, the legal system, advertising ect that work on our conscious enough to subvert our will, there also seems to be a spark inside of us that acknowledges these influences yet still overcomes them with the imperative feeling that "Though I may have my limitations, I still have SOME choices which are my own." If this feeling was not inside of us, what would we be but a bunch of automotons, putting food in one end and waiting for it to come out the other while our body slowly evolves into worm food. In other words I find that the idea of "free will" is inexorably linked to our will to survive. Some instinct tells to strive for survival while our mind asks "For what?". the "for what?" is possibly creating life ... maybe reaching out socially to other people or maybe just in expressing yourself in some ways to others. That; however, is more like a moment to moment means of expression. I kind of like the Greek ideology of expression in the arts or even warfare gives you immortal life in the hearts of people long after you've perished.