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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 05:19 PM        The Current World Lie
There is an international sentiment of Anti-Americanism, that quite frankly, I think dwarfs the VERY recent Anti-French sentiment in the United States. Our Anti-French feelings are regarding France's recent actions, not their right to voice their opinion.

France has no other reason to actively lobby against us, than to secure their own positions economically. France has illegally traded with the Iraqis for the past decade. France runs their entire phone system. France has billions of dollars in contracts it stands to lose if Saddam is ousted.

At the same time, France is struggling within the EU. France is expected to slip into violation of the Stability Pact of the eurozone. Their deficit is above 3.1% of their GDP. This is two years in a row that they will have been in violation. This violation means that they will be FORCED to lower their spending next year by the EU Monetary Affairs Commission. Oddly enough, Germany is above 3% deficit this year as well.

While this is going on daily, the United kingdom is continually refusing to join the Euro. Ask yourselves this before jumping to conclusions... can you blame them? How would you feel merging with the Mexican Peso? Or, better yet, the Argentine dollar? They would be out of their minds to join right now. The EU is in a very unstable position right now. Conceptually, the EU is great, but unless all countries can ante up the same productivity levels, what is the point? The individual countries involved are constitutionally bound to act in their own best interests first. The EU is NOT, contrary to their charter, a governing body.

On top of that, Germany is far too large, at least in their own mind, to not have a permanent seat on the UN. Oops, should have thought of that generations ago.

As for the other countries in opposition, money is the only thing at stake as well. Albeit, on a much lesser level, but, money all the same.

Conspiratorial party-line leftists in the United States, will go against anything Bush says or does, because he is Bush. However, polls continue to indicate that the American people want to see this issue resolved. Whether it be because we didn't finish the job when we had the chance the last time, or simply because we still, deep inside, need to place blame for September 11th.

Regardless, the administration did not act hastily on September 12th, 2001, as many countries had believed was inevitable. We sat down, and identified three key countries which were a potential threat to the United States. Each of these three countries carries a threat for a completely different reason, and therefore, must each be dealt with separately. Iraq is the most logical first for multiple reasons. One, we know they are in breach of a resolution which has already been passed. This violation alone, is enough to reinstate military action, but we have instead, again, employed diplomacy. Two, Iraq and Afghanistan, having both changed regimes, will bring a foundation in the Middle East for democracy to become, at the very least, more appealing. Three, bringing stability to the Middle East, will, at the very least, improve economic pressures worldwide, by encouraging an entirely new marketplace to thrive.

The Anti-American sentiment in this effort is nothing but a pathetic attempt to "control" or "harness" America. But, it's not America who is causing this problem. It is the International "community"
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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 09:37 PM       
Hmm... is France's trading with Iraq anything like how the U.S. has said trading with Cuba is illegal? Why aren't Americans showing rampant anti-Canadian sentiments since we trade with all the countries you say no one should?

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Two, Iraq and Afghanistan, having both changed regimes, will bring a foundation in the Middle East for democracy to become, at the very least, more appealing. Three, bringing stability to the Middle East
Foundation and stability, huh? I guess Afghanistan is really stable after a year.
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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 10:05 PM       
Rome wasn't built in a day...
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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 10:16 PM       
No, it wasn't, but it certainly didn't build itself.
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Old Mar 14th, 2003, 11:39 PM       
And neither is Afghanistan. The US is leading several countries in aiding the delopement in a new democratic government for that country. The elctions are expected to start in another year and a half.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:14 AM       
I think you missed this thread.

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=1170
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:20 AM       
Would you like to see the video my cousin the Army engineer just sent me from Afghanistan?
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:27 AM       
I'm sure that's a completely unbiased video.
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El Blanco El Blanco is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:36 AM       
Its a video of his unit starting a project to rebuild some of the roads and bridges. He plans on being there a while.

And its a video of someone actually there.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 12:41 AM       
He's building a road to freedom, huh? How quaint.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 01:53 AM        Re: The Current World Lie
Quote:
Originally Posted by HNICPantitude
it's not America who is causing this problem. It is the International "community"
Sure.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 05:12 AM       
i agree that much of the problem lies with the international community. i feel that this problem is caused mostly by the blatant anti-americanism that is so prominent in such global bodies as the UN. this is the reason that they constantly fail to enforce their own mandates; they did it to clinton, they are doing it to bush, and they will do it to any presidents we have in the future. i fear that since maybe the 70s, countries like france and germany would rejoice at the idea of america collapsing. this is not to say that anti americanism is the sole reason for our problems today, but it certainly is a major factor. with this whole war crimes court problem looming on the horizon it makes me wonder whether globalization will work or set us all back....
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 06:59 AM        Re: The Current World Lie
Pants, your problem is that your mind is a one-way street.

Quote:
There is an international sentiment of Anti-Americanism, that quite frankly, I think dwarfs the VERY recent Anti-French sentiment in the United States.
I think the majority of Americans GROSSLY oversize the anti-Americanism in Europe. There are massive anti-war protests, but they are aimed towards the American government. The narrow-minded "all Americans are devils" attitude lies in the Middle East. We're not yet that far. Don't act like you know what's going through the heads of people overseas.

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Our Anti-French feelings are regarding France's recent actions, not their right to voice their opinion
Like I said. People aren't protesting the American way of life, they're protesting the outright defiance of the American government for international opinion.

Quote:
While this is going on daily, the United kingdom is continually refusing to join the Euro. Ask yourselves this before jumping to conclusions... can you blame them? How would you feel merging with the Mexican Peso? Or, better yet, the Argentine dollar? They would be out of their minds to join right now.
They've been against this since day one because the UK has a big issue with changing their traditions. Hell, ALL of the EU officially changed the date they go into daylight savings in order to synchronize watches with the UK! The Dutch Guilder was a strong coin and we, too had to watch the Euro plummet in value during the months up until the European coin conversion. It was a sacrifice we made for the greater good of the whole EU. That's what the EU is all about.

Quote:
The Anti-American sentiment in this effort is nothing but a pathetic attempt to "control" or "harness" America. But, it's not America who is causing this problem. It is the International "community"
A perfect verbal illustration of why debating with you is pointless. You are simply incapable of acknowledging anything negative about your country, your president and your people.

What you see as an attempt at controlling America is actually the international community trying to make America sit amongst them, instead of at the head of the table. That takes sacrifices, it takes the rich getting poorer while the poor get richer. It takes a less self-serving and egotistical direction than the one Bush is steering America into right now.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 09:29 AM        Re: The Current World Lie
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
Pants, your problem is that your mind is a one-way street.
How so FS? Is my mind a one way street or is yours? I have come to the conclusion that America is making the right decision based on years of reading news, analysis, history, and facts. You deny historical trends, you deny current events, you deny everything you hear, because you want to live in a eutopian world, where there are no problems or wars. You can tell me all you want that this isn't true, but your posts speak for themselves.

Quote:
There is an international sentiment of Anti-Americanism, that quite frankly, I think dwarfs the VERY recent Anti-French sentiment in the United States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
I think the majority of Americans GROSSLY oversize the anti-Americanism in Europe. There are massive anti-war protests, but they are aimed towards the American government. The narrow-minded "all Americans are devils" attitude lies in the Middle East. We're not yet that far. Don't act like you know what's going through the heads of people overseas.
http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=10547

http://www.expatica.com/germany.asp?...&item_id=29569

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../03/2003_27069

http://www.iht.com/articles/89722.html

I do seem to have it wrong according to thos articles, huh? Dream on FS of a world where America feeds all of it's money to everyone else and is crushed under the thumb of the international community. Tell yourself the whole time, it was because we were "arrogant."

Your own quote sums up your entire sentiment....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
The narrow-minded "all Americans are devils" attitude lies in the Middle East. We're not yet that far.
That's truly touching FS...

Quote:
Our Anti-French feelings are regarding France's recent actions, not their right to voice their opinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
Like I said. People aren't protesting the American way of life, they're protesting the outright defiance of the American government for international opinion.
I'll address this below when I comment on your statement about sitting at the table with everyone else.

Quote:
While this is going on daily, the United kingdom is continually refusing to join the Euro. Ask yourselves this before jumping to conclusions... can you blame them? How would you feel merging with the Mexican Peso? Or, better yet, the Argentine dollar? They would be out of their minds to join right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
They've been against this since day one because the UK has a big issue with changing their traditions. Hell, ALL of the EU officially changed the date they go into daylight savings in order to synchronize watches with the UK! The Dutch Guilder was a strong coin and we, too had to watch the Euro plummet in value during the months up until the European coin conversion. It was a sacrifice we made for the greater good of the whole EU. That's what the EU is all about.
I'm not saying you won't pull them in eventually, but don't feed me the lie that they don't want to break tradition... Spare me. Although the Dutch Guilder was strong, it didn't carry NEAR the same impact the assimilation of the pound will. If you believe that, you are only lying to yourself. You know as well as I do, that there are major problems in stabilizing the EU, and more specifically, the Euro, and if you think thats my American perception, think again. My entire knowledge of the EU and the Euro comes from European news sources. It is very rarely spoken about by any major news outlet in the U.S. and any American on this board can confirm that.

Quote:
The Anti-American sentiment in this effort is nothing but a pathetic attempt to "control" or "harness" America. But, it's not America who is causing this problem. It is the International "community"
Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
A perfect verbal illustration of why debating with you is pointless. You are simply incapable of acknowledging anything negative about your country, your president and your people.

What you see as an attempt at controlling America is actually the international community trying to make America sit amongst them, instead of at the head of the table. That takes sacrifices, it takes the rich getting poorer while the poor get richer. It takes a less self-serving and egotistical direction than the one Bush is steering America into right now.
Actually, you are completely incorrect in your assumption that I am incapable of seeing fault within this country. There are many, just as there are in all countries. What I won't concede to, is your imbecilic Euro-leftist view, that the United States owes something to the EU. We dont owe anything to anyone... quite the opposite in my opinion, but I'll save that for another thread. "That takes the rich getting poorer, while the poor getting richer." Thats a spectacular socialist Eutopia you speak of. I guess it all ends up ok for you though, considering that in that analogy, the United States are the Evil Rich Empire (oops, I forgot, your opinion isn't yet that far) and the Europeans stand only to get richer...

You should really bring something to the table before you try to cut a deal FS. Perhaps start by enforcing your own rules, and punishing France and Germany for underperformance in their economies. Maybe then, you can make some money and earn your own spot at the table, with the Big Rich Empire.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 10:55 AM       
FS:
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 02:06 PM       
RONNIE JR
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 03:23 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
He's building a road to freedom, huh? How quaint.
More like the roads that were destroyed in combat so food and supplies can get to people. I know, its horrible. Obviously spending billions of dollars to rebuild the infastructure is such a thin veil for the obvious abandment we are about to start.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 03:55 PM        Re: The Current World Lie
Pants, the reason I say your mind is a one-way street is because things seem to come out, but not go in. You insist on seeing me as your 'enemy' for the simple fact that I'm not American (European even! Gasp!). At every step you suspect me of super-leftist, death-to-America, unity-uber-alles motives and therefore dismiss my point of view.

Sure, I'd like to live in a utopia, but I don't believe mankind is capable of something like that. However, what I WOULD like to see is to see the greatest possible effort made at simulating a utopia. That means caring for those less fortunate and not just those that carry the label of your nationality. Do you actually know what Utopia means? It's a perfect world - not just a fair one, which I'd be content with.


http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=10547
http://www.expatica.com/germany.asp?...&item_id=29569
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w.../03/2003_27069
http://www.iht.com/articles/89722.html

Each of these articles talks of a pro-war country trying to draw attention to anti-Americanism in the EU. Anti-Americanism, or an anti-war attitude? I'm sorry, but if you're for the war, you have something to gain from dismissing anti-war sympathy as simple anti-Americanism. People are not protesting the war because they hate America.

Point is, you're trying to make me your enemy. It'll be so much easier for the US to tell the UN to shove it if they get lip from the UN first. It's two friends, one of which has decided he doesn't like the other too much anymore. It'll be easier to part with a fight then to come out of nowhere with a big fuck you. I don't consider Americans in general to be arrogant and I don't consider you to be a very good representation of an American. I consider you to be a narrow-minded egoist and those are an international commodity.

Quote:
Dream on FS of a world where America feeds all of it's money to everyone else and is crushed under the thumb of the international community.
That's just it, isn't it? Where I say "donations for the poor", you'll say "losers stealing our money". Where I say "be part of the international community", you'll say "submit to slavery".

Quote:
Originally Posted by FS
The narrow-minded "all Americans are devils" attitude lies in the Middle East. We're not yet that far.
Quote:
That's truly touching FS...
It was also sarcasm.

Quote:
I'm not saying you won't pull them in eventually
Jesus fucking Christ. "Pull them in"? How far are you exactly from calling the EU the Third Reich?

Quote:
You know as well as I do, that there are major problems in stabilizing the EU, and more specifically, the Euro, and if you think thats my American perception, think again.
Do I? For months now, the Euro has been circling closely around the Dollar's exchange rate, sometimes going over even.



Quote:
What I won't concede to, is your imbecilic Euro-leftist view, that the United States owes something to the EU. We dont owe anything to anyone... quite the opposite in my opinion, but I'll save that for another thread. "That takes the rich getting poorer, while the poor getting richer." Thats a spectacular socialist Eutopia you speak of. I guess it all ends up ok for you though, considering that in that analogy, the United States are the Evil Rich Empire (oops, I forgot, your opinion isn't yet that far) and the Europeans stand only to get richer...
The US owes nothing to anyone? Really. How about the native Americans whose land you stole? The Africans you brought overseas to work for you as slaves? And I'll save you the trouble of bringing this up, yes, Europe has its equal share in this (hell, in those times Americans were mostly Europeans still). What I can't stomach, is your every-man-for-themselves attitude while you live in the richest nation on this planet. Every single person who did not grow up in poverty owes a debt to every person that did. Because you don't need the luxuries your money buy you, while somewhere in another country a family is dying in heat because they don't have enough food. That not Utopia, Pants. That's being humane. And notice how I accuse Europe of this crime just as much as I do the US, hell, I accuse you and me of it. But now. It'll be easier for you to ignore the world by pretending they're hateful leeches anyway.

Quote:
You should really bring something to the table before you try to cut a deal FS. Perhaps start by enforcing your own rules, and punishing France and Germany for underperformance in their economies. Maybe then, you can make some money and earn your own spot at the table, with the Big Rich Empire.
I don't suppose I can reach an agreement with a person who doesn't see the responsibilities that come with being 'rich'.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 04:49 PM       
I thought this editorial might be appropriate for this thread.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0314-01.htm

Published on Friday, March 14, 2003 by the New York Times
George W. Queeg
by Paul Krugman

Aboard the U.S.S. Caine, it was the business with the strawberries that finally convinced the doubters that something was amiss with the captain. Is foreign policy George W. Bush's quart of strawberries?

Over the past few weeks there has been an epidemic of epiphanies. There's a long list of pundits who previously supported Bush's policy on Iraq but have publicly changed their minds. None of them quarrel with the goal; who wouldn't want to see Saddam Hussein overthrown? But they are finally realizing that Mr. Bush is the wrong man to do the job. And more people than you would think — including a fair number of people in the Treasury Department, the State Department and, yes, the Pentagon — don't just question the competence of Mr. Bush and his inner circle; they believe that America's leadership has lost touch with reality.

If that sounds harsh, consider the debacle of recent diplomacy — a debacle brought on by awesome arrogance and a vastly inflated sense of self-importance.

Mr. Bush's inner circle seems amazed that the tactics that work so well on journalists and Democrats don't work on the rest of the world. They've made promises, oblivious to the fact that most countries don't trust their word. They've made threats. They've done the aura-of-inevitability thing — how many times now have administration officials claimed to have lined up the necessary votes in the Security Council? They've warned other countries that if they oppose America's will they are objectively pro-terrorist. Yet still the world balks.

Wasn't someone at the State Department allowed to point out that in matters nonmilitary, the U.S. isn't all that dominant — that Russia and Turkey need the European market more than they need ours, that Europe gives more than twice as much foreign aid as we do and that in much of the world public opinion matters? Apparently not.

And to what end has Mr. Bush alienated all our most valuable allies? (And I mean all: Tony Blair may be with us, but British public opinion is now virulently anti-Bush.) The original reasons given for making Iraq an immediate priority have collapsed. No evidence has ever surfaced of the supposed link with Al Qaeda, or of an active nuclear program. And the administration's eagerness to believe that an Iraqi nuclear program does exist has led to a series of embarrassing debacles, capped by the case of the forged Niger papers, which supposedly supported that claim. At this point it is clear that deposing Saddam has become an obsession, detached from any real rationale.

What really has the insiders panicked, however, is the irresponsibility of Mr. Bush and his team, their almost childish unwillingness to face up to problems that they don't feel like dealing with right now.

I've talked in this column about the administration's eerie passivity in the face of a stalling economy and an exploding budget deficit: reality isn't allowed to intrude on the obsession with long-run tax cuts. That same "don't bother me, I'm busy" attitude is driving foreign policy experts, inside and outside the government, to despair.

Need I point out that North Korea, not Iraq, is the clear and present danger? Kim Jong Il's nuclear program isn't a rumor or a forgery; it's an incipient bomb assembly line. Yet the administration insists that it's a mere "regional" crisis, and refuses even to talk to Mr. Kim.

The Nelson Report, an influential foreign policy newsletter, says: "It would be difficult to exaggerate the growing mixture of anger, despair, disgust and fear actuating the foreign policy community in Washington as the attack on Iraq moves closer, and the North Korea crisis festers with no coherent U.S. policy. . . . We are at the point now where foreign policy generally, and Korea policy specifically, may become George Bush's `Waco.' . . . This time, it's Kim Jong Il (and Saddam) playing David Koresh. . . . Sober minds wrestle with how to break into the mind of George Bush."

We all hope that the war with Iraq is a swift victory, with a minimum of civilian casualties. But more and more people now realize that even if all goes well at first, it will have been the wrong war, fought for the wrong reasons — and there will be a heavy price to pay.

Alas, the epiphanies of the pundits have almost surely come too late. The odds are that by the time you read my next column, the war will already have started.

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

###
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 09:41 PM       
Alright, this is just stupidity.

FS: The US owes nothing to anyone? Really. How about the native Americans whose land you stole? The Africans you brought overseas to work for you as slaves?

Fine. Quarter off all of Europe below Germany and hand it over to the Italians. And don't forget sizable portions of Africa as well. The Romans held it first. No, no, that creates problems because there were those who ruled there before them. I got it. We nuke the planet, every square inch, and turn it into the lifeless rock scientists believe it was before that spark hit the primordial pool and created life. Then everyone will be even, right back to square one, and we can start all over again, first come first serve for land.

FS: (hell, in those times Americans were mostly Europeans still)

America was never "mostly European." It was settled by religious dissidents, and even during the colonial days, they saw themselves as something other than European. The majority of those who came did so to escape Europe, not to serve it. Years before the beginning of the Revolutionary war, Patrick Henry was quotes as saying:

"I am not a Virginian but an American!"

Neither classification alludes to European identity. Unless you are speaking in regards to European hedgemony, in which case your point is laughable.

FS: Every single person who did not grow up in poverty owes a debt to every person that did.

What socialist bullshit is this? Noone owes anyone else shit. Its this sense of entitlement which is ruining America today, having totally ecliped the work ethics the country was founded on. We have state wide 'unions' for Welfare Rights, as those people have some right to Federal funds simply because they were stupid enough to have children without the means to provide for them. Catering to that stupidity would only encourage the folly in others.

FS: I don't suppose I can reach an agreement with a person who doesn't see the responsibilities that come with being 'rich'.

Do you see those responsibilities? If so, why aren't you out there in the Peace Corps, bringing food, aid and medical supplies to the world's needy, forming communal farms to feed the needing, or building shelters for those without? That fact you have a computer and internet service suggests you have assets to spare, and the fact you are posting at I-Mockery means you certainly have the time. Maybe its because you're not really all that different from Pants, being occupied with your own existance and only considering others abstractly if at all.
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 09:52 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
America was never "mostly European." It was settled by religious dissidents, and even during the colonial days, they saw themselves as something other than European. The majority of those who came did so to escape Europe, not to serve it. Years before the beginning of the Revolutionary war, Patrick Henry was quotes as saying
I take issue with this. Sure, we were distinct, but "we" still lived essentially very "European" lifestyles, and many (Hamilton, for example) still viewed England as the model to live by.

Also, in proportion to the population at the time, how many people took the optional offer of going back to England at the war's conclusion???

I think FS's point was that the people were still essentially "European" in nature, and the ratio of loyalists to "patriots", IMO, reaffirms that point.
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 10:02 PM       
They were European by default, not design, and by choice decided differently in becoming American. As to the Loyalists, about half of of the estimated 80 000 to 100 000 in total left after the war. But thats a pitiful number really, hell, just using Kentucky as an example, one can see a trend for a larger infulx of people than decrease: A British agent put the 1788 population at 62,000k, and the census of 1790 reported 73,077 persons.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 10:23 PM       
I've heard something like 100,000 roughly, out of something like 2.5 million in total (not sure if that includes slaves, though). That's still a pretty sizable amount for a country that wasn't very "European."
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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Mar 15th, 2003, 10:49 PM       
If memory serves, 100K was the number of loyalists en toto, and roughly half left, but I've fucked up figures before. I'll grant you the argument. . .And while it is a sizable figure, for the given population, it still comes out to less than one percent.
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