I'm converting...

[Jeanette X]

All hail Our Blessed Jesus-Pisces Savior! The Avatar of Angst! Hallelujah!

[Anonymous]

Jamesman made me lol :<

Anyway, i was going to go to buddism seminars but kinda got sidetracked. And i've seen the dalai llama speak in person at a monestary. Or, like, someone important. Or something. I remember something like that. I'll need to ask my mom sometime.

But aaaanyway, I was getting interested recently in reading up a bit on the subject. I think my father has the books of which Winston speaks and I will read them i[]IF HE DOES[/i].

[Vibecrewangel]

Mod, the book is "Zen in 10 simple lessons" by Anthony Man-Tu Lee and David Weiss

It literally fell off a shelf and onto my head at a bookstore one evening so I bought it.



Gratzz - Buddhism does believe in heaven. Several in fact.

Buddhists do go to heaven if their practice is skillful, and to hell if it's unskilful.

There was a book published in 1997 called... Buddhist Cosmology, Philosophy and Origins, by Akira Sadakata, Kosei Publications. It goes into a very detailed explanation of the various heavens and hells.

Buddhism has a best heaven. Everything is just the way you want it to be. In this heaven, there is no reason to change anything. You are ultimately happy. The problem is that it's not permanent, as is everything in Buddhism.

[FS]

I thought in Buddhism, you kept getting reincarnated into different forms (depending on how good you led your previous life), until you lead such a good life that you're returned to the source of all?

Or am I thinking of something else?

[Bennett]

I think a lot of what's being tossed back and forth is a matter of semantics... be careful of what you label as 'traditional', as Seth mentioned earlier, Buddhism has infused itself with many other eastern religions that predate itself. I guess I find it interesting that people would say that it is not a religion, when it is an established religion across the world, if not the national religion of certain countries. I guess I am wondering if the main reason behind this is because there isn't a true God figure in Buddhism?

Vibecrewangel, I would like to hear some more about similarities with quantum mathematics (just to set the table, I am coming from a strictly "want to know" standpoint and am not trying to be combative at all)

Miss Modular,
a couple good books on two different kinds of buddhism are:
The Words of My Perfect Teacher: by Patrul Rinpoche
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: (first name?) Suzuki

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by Sethomas

Umm, I don't think that Nirvana is an image of the afterlife, dude.

Isn't it more like the ultimate plane of awareness and enlightenment? ... i.e. more of a mental state than a place.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by Vibecrewangel

Buddhism in general is more closely related to quantum mathmatics (physics especially) than it is to traditional religion.


Not that it isn't spiritual....it is very spiritual. But it is about the self and the whole. (The singular and the infinite) Not about gods.

Dude, you NEED to read Doubt and Certainty by Rothman and Sudarshan. Here's a link:

LINK

It isn't particulary great writing but it does tackle a number of different issues in reconciling math/physics with both eastern and western modes of religious thought. It's not exactly in-depth as it should be in some areas due to the scope it tries to tackle, the areas discussed are at least are thought-provoking and may lead to other avenues of more specific reading through it's source citings.

[Vibecrewangel]

FS - Reincarnation does occur. Mostly do to wants and desires. Buddhism teaches to let go of all wants and desires. Among other things. The more you let go the more self less you are. The more self less you are the more good you do. The more good you do the more good karma you earn. The more Karma you earn the longer you get to stay in a particular heaven. Once Karma is burned off you reincarnate again. The only time you do not reincarnate based on Karma is when you reach Nirvana. You can however choose to reincarnate to come and lead others down the path.

Bennett - Let's try it this way. What Gautama Buddha understood and taught to others was not and is not a religion. Italian Stereotype hit it on the head when he said you can be a Buddhist and a (insert any other religion here) That is how some of the more religious forms of Buddhism have come about. They are a blending of Buddhism and other religions or philosophies. This is because true (I'm using this word only to differentiate between what Gautama Buddha thaught and the blended forms) Buddhism is very difficult to comprehend, and to most people terrifying. Humans tend to desire the divine. It is comforting. A safety net. And in many cases an excuse. In Buddhism there is only the you. And you are the architect of your own success or destruction.
Of course.....you are only a bundle of memories....not a self in the way we are typically taught. There is no imortal soul. Again, one of the aspects of true Buddhism that frightens people. Buddha knew this. However, he believed that eventually, all beings will be unafraid and without desire. Even desire for the divine. Eventually all beings will achive Nirvana. All will become part of the whole.


Now the higher math concept. I'm going to keep it simple for now, but I am going to look up a better example. These are just mine, and I am just starting to understand the mathmatical parts.

Buddhism is about conciousness, matter and time. The singular and the infinite. To get an idea of how this relates to physics, take a look at my post about the grid in the Matrix reloaded thread in the movie forum. The Matrix movies are a super example of Buddhist thought.

Buddhisms most basic tenant is cause and effect. And it is completley personal. What you do causes what happens to you. When you throw a ball at a wall it bounces back. When you expend good energy, you get good energy back. Karma. If you expend bad energy........more Karma.

I know those are very basic, but I think they might suffice. I'll try to find a really good example for you though.

[Bennett]

Vibecrewangel,

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you break any religion down to its purest form, you have philosophies that can be applied to your life with or without the presence of another religion. Take Christ, for example, many of his parables are lessons that could be taken completely outside of the religious context. However, he also taught others about the importance of praising God. So to me, it seems like people are quick to dismiss buddhism as a philosophy and not a religion because of the absence of God. Perhaps it is right to do so.

I think it would be very hard to be a true buddhist and a christian.
First of all, you wouldn't praise God any more than you would a dog, because they are both part of our impermanent world. For all you know, you could be the reincarnation of J.C. That didn't go over to well when I pronounced myself Jesus in my sunday school class.

I hope you don't take me as obnoxious or argumentative. I am merely conversing. I can see that we both have distinct perspectives on this issue, and I don't think that either of us could say anything to convince the other. I consider myself to be a buddhist, and someone telling me that it is a philosophy and not a religion isn't going to convince me, because to me personally, it is more than that. I look forward to more posts about quantum mathematics and physics.

A couple side notes: I agree with the Matrix comments, I've been trying to tell people how Buddhist that movie since it came out.
Also, on the subject of karma/rebirth/enlightenment... as far as enlightenment goes, all karma is bad karma. Enlightenment is almost a suicide of the soul, perhaps another reason why it might frighten people.

[Vibecrewangel]

Bennett - I don't find you argumentative at all. It's nice having someone new to discuss this with.
And I would never try to change your opinion. I hope that isn't how I come off.

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Buddha


I have a question for you. Would you consider witchcraft a religion? Not Wicca, not Shamanism, not any other form paganism, but witchcraft on it's own.

[Vibecrewangel]

Kelly - I'm gonna pick that one up! It looks excellent!

[Bennett]

I don't understand your question without reference to the forms you mentioned... sorry?

Like a person who believes in spellcasting?

[Vibecrewangel]

If the word spellcasting works better for you we can use that.

[Bennett]

My brain is turning on that question. I would find it hard to classify witchcraft without some other form of spirituality. From what I know about it (admittedly probably very little) the person practicing witchcraft would drawn on some sort of outside spiritual power. It could be a certain deity or some aspect of nature, or even something satanic. These however, all fall into the categories that you didn't want me to include.

I wouldn't say that the witchcraft is a religion, but I would say that it doesn't really exist outside of something greater spiritually.

[Vibecrewangel]

Not a bad answer actually.

Okay. Now what about someone who is able to do all those same things without drawing on outside power? A psychic for example.

[Bennett]

No, I would say that if there actually was someone who could do something of that nature, I would be apt to believe it was more of a scientific phenomenon.

[Vibecrewangel]

Cool.

Okay so if a witch can fly using a chant to a god or the earth, and a psychic can levitate on his own what is the only difference? The witch believes that an outside influance that causes the effect. The psychic believes that it is himself.
There is a very large movement currently of people who used to practive witchcraft who have realized that it isn't the outside that creates effect, it is the self. They no longer need the focus (item), the chant, the gods. All of those things are a human construct. A human need. Once you release them you are free of them. It is a logical step if you are willing to let go of the fear of taking responsibility.

I see Buddhism in a similar light. I see it as being past the need for religion. The next step. When you said "it seems like people are quick to dismiss buddhism as a philosophy" I was laughing because to me calling a religion is calling it something less that it is. Symantics I guess.

Don't get me wrong. I actually think that religion is a good thing. It is step. I just feel that humans have gotten caught on that step. Most aren't ready to let go. And that isn't really a bad thing. At least not in the eyes of someone who understands Buddhism.

BTW - I'm still on the step myself. I still can't let go of the something bigger than ourselves thing. Though admitedly that thing has become more and more formless over the years. And that terrifies me.

[Vibecrewangel]

Bennett - Here is a link to a long but intersting article on Buddhism/Physics and well......carrots.

http://www.buddhanet.net/timeimpe.htm

[Bennett]

Excellent, thanks a lot for the link, I will look at it more once I'm outside of work. I think that I understand you more now, and that our viewpoints are actually quite similar. I was under the impression that it was more of a "buddhism is not as good as christianity," or that it isn't substantial enough to be a religion... and it was my attempt to find out why someone would think such.

I'm not so sure on where we would intersect, philosophically/religiously on this subject. I consider myself to be a buddhist/atheist mix. I admittedly use aspects of buddhism as a crutch. The thoughts on impermanence are actually something that I find oddly comforting. I think if anything buddhism and aheism mix really well (if that makes any sense at all), mostly because of meditations on impermanence and as you mentioned, "All will become part of the whole."

[Vibecrewangel]

I just found another much shorter one.

http://www.purifymind.com/ModernPhysics.htm


I also consider myself a Buddhist. I'm trying to let go of my crutches and delve more deeply into it. It is a long procees though.