Go Back   I-Mockery Forum > I-Mockery Discussion Forums > Philosophy, Politics, and News
FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Oct 23rd, 2003, 10:10 AM        Who's telling the truth, Bush, Ashcroft or Rumsfeld?
"we are winning the war on terror"
-W, State of the Union, 1/28/02

"We are winning the War on Terrorism"
-Ashcroft, to Senate Judiciary Committee Hearin, 3/4/03

"We are winning the War on Terrorism"
-W, San Diego, 8/14/03

"The United States has no yardstick for measuring progress in the war on terrorism"
Rumsfled, 10/22/03

I mean, I guess you could see if we were winning or not without a yardstick. Maybe we have a measuring tape. Or a scoreboard. Or an as yet unspecified metaphor to tell how things are going.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Zhukov Zhukov is offline
Supa Soviet Missil Mastar
Zhukov's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tasmania
Zhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's armyZhukov has joined BAPE's army
Old Oct 23rd, 2003, 10:38 AM       
Then again, they may just think that winning the War on Terrorism is not progress.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
ranxer ranxer is offline
Member
ranxer's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: U$
ranxer is probably a spambot
Old Oct 23rd, 2003, 01:10 PM       
Attacks on US soldiers in Iraq soaring
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...631570429.html

al qaeda recruitment has been on the upswing since we attacked afghanistan.. so i'd say we have succeeded in nothing but, increasing our enemies, spending tons of money, killing lots of people, giving contracts to those already in power and increasing a need for security in the wrong fashion.

Quote:
Add to the preceding yet another wrinkle. Ansar al-Islam has not only survived attempts by US troops to decimate it during the Iraqi invasion, but is reported to be recruiting Kurdish and Arab militants from Iran. Operating on the premise that the enemy of your enemy is your friend, they have reportedly established a nexus even with Saddam loyalists. These groups are reported to be behind most of the attacks on the US troops across Iraq. If the alienation of the Shi'ites - which also seems to be escalating - were to continue, then the security situation in Iraq is likely to deteriorate further.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EJ24Ak03.html

Iraq war swells al Qaeda's ranks, report says
http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc...ent_272617.htm

yea, both those last two links are from asian news.. but i've heard it elswhere as well.. granted the whitehouse influenced media doesnt want us to hear this stuff one bit.. i dunno how bad the pressure to keep this info out of the US is but i'm sure its there some.
__________________
the neo-capitalists believe in privatizing profits and socializing losses
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Zbu Manowar Zbu Manowar is offline
Space Viking Repo Man
Zbu Manowar's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SE Michigan
Zbu Manowar is probably a spambot
Old Oct 23rd, 2003, 05:25 PM       
When it comes to Bush and his lot, all this back and forth shit is just another way to make this whole fisaco look like it's someone else's fault. Despite killing a lot of assholes, they know they've just opened Pandora's Box.

Fucking nuke the Middle East and take the oil now, hardly matters now.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Oct 24th, 2003, 10:59 AM       
Here's an article from Slate that reflects my thinking on the Rumsfled memo and it's significance.


Rumsfeld's Pentagon Papers
His leaked memo is the most astonishing document of this war so far.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 3:23 PM PT

Now he's got questions?

Donald Rumsfeld's war-on-terror memo—which was leaked to USA Today on Wednesday and picked up by the rest of the media, for the most part with a shrug, on Thursday—may be the most important, even stunning official document yet to come out of this war.

It puts the lie to the Bush administration's PR campaign that postwar Iraq is progressing nicely and that the media are exaggerating the setbacks. (If the media are exaggerating, this memo indicates, then so, too, is Secretary Rumsfeld.) It reads eerily like some internal mid-'60s document from The Pentagon Papers that spelled out how badly things were going in Vietnam (just as President Lyndon B. Johnson and his defense secretary, Robert McNamara, were publicly proclaiming tunnel light and victories). To use a phrase coined during LBJ's tenure to describe the ever-widening fissure between rhetoric and reality, Rumsfeld's memo marks the first unconcealable eruption of a "credibility gap" in the wartime presidency of George W. Bush.

The two-page memo, dated Oct. 16, was addressed to Rumsfeld's top aides: the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers; the vice chairman, Gen. Pete Pace; Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz; and Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith. Here are some key passages:

* "It is pretty clear that the coalition can win in Afghanistan and Iraq in one way or another, but it will be a long, hard slog."
* "My impression is that we have not yet made truly bold moves [in the war on terrorism]."
* "We are having mixed results with [tracking down] Al-Qaida. … With respect to the Ansar Al-Islam, we are just getting started."
* "It is not possible to change DoD fast enough to successfully fight the global war on terror; an alternative might be to try to fashion a new institution either within DoD or elsewhere."
* "Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?"
* "Does the US need to fashion a broad, integrated plan to stop the next generation of terrorists? The US is putting relatively little effort into a long-range plan, but we are putting a great deal of effort into trying to stop terrorists. The cost-benefit ratio is against us! Our cost is billions against the terrorists' costs of millions."
* "How do we stop those who are financing the radical madrassa schools? Is our current situation such that 'the harder we work, the behinder we get'? ... Should we create a private foundation to entice radical madrassas to a more moderate course?"

Another question might be added to this list: Have you ever read a more pathetic federal document in your life? What is being stated here can be summed up as follows: We'll probably win the battle for Afghanistan and Iraq (or, more precisely, it's "pretty clear" we "can win" it, "in one way or another" after "a long, hard slog"), but we're losing the struggle for hearts and minds in the broader war against terrorism. Not only that, we don't know how to measure winning or losing, we don't have a plan for winning it, we don't know how to fashion a plan, and the bureaucratic agencies put in charge of waging this war and drawing up these plans may be inherently incapable of doing so.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan, when asked Wednesday about the leaked memo, tried to put the best spin on it, extolling the quality of questions that Rumsfeld had posed in the memo. "That's exactly what a strong and capable secretary of defense like Secretary Rumsfeld should be doing," McClellan said with a remarkably straight face.

Maybe so, but it's a shame Rumsfeld and his crew—who, after all, have been running this operation—weren't asking such questions two years ago or five months ago or, for that matter, five weeks ago. His questions about the madrasahs—the schools where fundamentalist clerics indoctrinate the next generation of Muslims in anti-Western militancy—are truly cogent. But he seems unaware that his current style of neutralizing these institutions may be heightening their appeal in the region's most susceptible quarters. What to do about this cultural dimension of the war is a genuine dilemma, perhaps the crucial dilemma of our time. But Rumsfeld's bull-session recipes—creating a private foundation to entice moderation, drafting a "new finding" for the CIA (which means what—an executive order that broadens the scope of permissible assassinations?)—are thin brews.

What makes the Rumsfeld memo a major document, however, is that it confirms much of the news reporting coming out of Iraq—the same reporting that Bush officials (including Rumsfeld) have publicly derided as biased. NPR's Deborah Amos reported Wednesday morning that Donald Evans, Bush's secretary of commerce, came to Baghdad recently and admonished the American reporters there to start paying more attention to the good news about the occupation. "The American people have a far different view from the reality that we all know is here," Amos quoted Evans as saying, "You should report what we're really seeing." How long had Evans been in Iraq? About 24 hours. Where did he sleep that night? In Kuwait.

Rumsfeld's memo makes plain that our top officials suffer no illusions about the war. They are trying only to sell illusions to the rest of us. The leaking of Rumsfeld's memo puts a tailspin on the sales pitch.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
FS FS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fribbulus Xax
FS is probably a spambot
Old Oct 24th, 2003, 11:15 AM       
Quote:
"My impression is that we have not yet made truly bold moves [in the war on terrorism]."
I can't begin to describe how twisted and insane this sentence sounds to me.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
mburbank mburbank is offline
The Moxie Nerve Food Tonic
mburbank's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: right behind you
mburbank has disabled reputation
Old Oct 24th, 2003, 11:39 AM       
Yeah, there's a whole creepy element beyond the assesment that we have no idea of how we're doing or how to measure it.

I have to wonder what he means by 'bold moves'

I'm also cncerned that he wants to create something besides the D.O.D. to achieve his goals.

I deffinitely think the memo is fascinating because it reveals
A.) The administration is aware of how messed up things are despite what they say.
and
B.) The mess needs to be fixed, but Rumsfled is about the lst guy you'd want doing the fixing.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
ranxer ranxer is offline
Member
ranxer's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: U$
ranxer is probably a spambot
Old Oct 24th, 2003, 01:46 PM       
"the harder we work the behinder we get" lovely
i thought that was the plan to keep the money flowing into the military industrial complex and interests in bed with them..
like the crooked mechanic that will keep finding something wrong cause he's rigged it to fill his pockets. we fund/train ruthless leaders then when they are dangerous enough we declare them the enemy..our own 'intelligence assets' and thier accomplishments are more our enemies than anything else.

here's how we solve the iraq problem .. reinviggorate state propoganda!

i thought there was enough effort on that front already

Rumsfeld says US needs new agency to fight "war of ideas"
"We are in a war of ideas, as well as a global war on terror," Rumsfeld said in an interview with The Washington Times published Friday. "And the ideas are important ... they need to be communicated in ways that are persuasive to the listeners."
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_1142114.htm

is it just me or is china news popping up more often? i followed this link from news.google.com
__________________
the neo-capitalists believe in privatizing profits and socializing losses
Reply With Quote
  #9  
FS FS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fribbulus Xax
FS is probably a spambot
Old Oct 24th, 2003, 02:02 PM       
I should think invading two countries would qualify as "bold moves". Especially when invading at least one of them was questionable to most of the world.

I agree with Zbu that they're probably going to keep bouncing the ball of blame back and forth, but I worry for how long they can keep that up. It's like they're keeping a machine going of which they forgot the purpose, because it's easier than admitting that they forgot.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
incurable paranoiac incurable paranoiac is offline
Junior Member
incurable paranoiac's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: bi (coastal, perv)
incurable paranoiac is probably a spambot
Old Oct 24th, 2003, 03:17 PM       
why don't they just get Mountain Dew to sponsor the whole thing?

screw "bold." we're gonna have to get "eXtreme."

(fo shizzle)
__________________
paradise is for the blessed, not the sex obsessed.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

   


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:19 AM.


© 2008 I-Mockery.com
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.