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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 09:00 PM        Andrew Sullivan: American Conservatism is in trouble
This isn't a new argument, but I like Andrew Sullivan (sometimes), and I didn't want people to think I just pick on Libertarianism and Marxism.

I think he makes some very nice, abstract points, but he seems to omit the role 9/11 had in changing Bush's foreign policy approach. You could make a good, ideologically conservative argument that democratizing the Middle East will ultimately serve the best interests of American security. Anyway....

This was the best part: " How these contradictions can be resolved is hard to see. Is conservatism now paternalist, spending huge amounts of federal money to guide people into more moral lives? Or is it about restraining government so people can make up their own minds how to live?"

I also think he's right about the implications this might hold for the 2008 election. The Republican Party has been well known for its discipline during elections. They will undoubtedly stay tight for 2006, but 2008 could be one of those races that define the direction of the party, similar to the progressive/conservative divide, Dewey vs. Taft divide that once troubled the party. I dunno, we'll see.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...3089_1,00.html

March 20, 2005

Comment: Andrew Sullivan: Bush’s triumph conceals the great conservative crack-up

It should be the best of times for American conservatism. Republican majorities in the House and Senate, a re-elected Republican president, an increasing number of Republican governors and a rightwards tilt in the judiciary. While the British Tories and German Christian Democrats flounder, America’s right seems to flourish.

Well, that’s the cover story. Beneath the surface, however, American conservatism is in increasing trouble. The Republican coalition, always fragile, now depends as much on the haplessness of the Democrats as on its own internal logic. On foreign and domestic policy alike the American right is splintering. With no obvious successor to George W Bush that splintering will deepen.

Take foreign policy. At the moment Bush is riding high as his democratisation push seems to have made some modest progress in the Middle East. But the Iraq war was deeply controversial among conservatives before the war and it has become more so since. Old school conservatives — or “realists”, as they call themselves — had no time for nation building or for wars of liberation among cultures they viewed as irredeemably undemocratic.

Neoconservatives — many of them former Democrats and liberals — saw spreading liberty as integral to a successful foreign policy. The Iraq war brought the two wings together on the threat from Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction.

When the WMDs failed to appear, the insurgency grew, and the commitment of 140,000 troops to secure freedom among Arabs seemed to stretch endlessly ahead, restlessness on the right revived. It was suppressed for political reasons before polling day but Bush’s re-election and his lack of any obvious successor have allowed the divisions to blossom.

If you look at the magazine The American Conservative, for example, you will find Patrick Buchanan’s Stone Age conservative isolationism almost indistinguishable from the hard left’s in its loathing of Middle East policy.

Last week a more mainstream conservative journal, The National Interest, saw a slew of editors quit because it published a tough realist article criticising the Iraq invasion. The neocons left to form a rival journal, The American Interest. Francis Fukuyama of “end of history” fame, was one of them.

Back home the differences over fiscal policy are also profound. President Bush has added $1 trillion (£520 billion) to the national debt in only four years and is proposing to add at least another $2 trillion with his social security reform. With his Medicare prescription drug benefit, about whose massive expense he deceived Congress, he has enacted the biggest new entitlement since Lyndon Johnson. Bush has increased spending on medical care for the poor by 46%. He has doubled education spending in four years; federal housing spending has gone up 86%.

Compared with Bill Clinton, he’s an extreme, big government liberal. In fact the only real difference between the Democrats and Republicans at this point is that the Democrats believe in big, solvent government and the Republicans believe in an even bigger, insolvent government.

Conservatives are complaining. Two powerful think tanks, the American Enterprise Institute and the Heritage Foundation, have published critiques of Bush’s fiscal policies. Heritage called for an outright repeal of the new healthcare entitlement.

Bush’s social security reform plan appears all but dead in the Senate, because he is now trying to flatline some minor but sensitive domestic spending, veto any attempt to rein in the far more expensive entitlement explosion while keeping his tax cuts. Moderates and fiscal conservatives are finally saying no.

Unless the Republicans are going to add even more trillions to the national debt, something has to give. Tax rises are off the table. And the divisions are so deep among Republicans that they may not be able to pass a budget this year at all.

On social policy the rifts are not as deep, largely because the religious right now all but owns the Republican party. Gone are the days when Ronald Reagan said: “The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralised authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.”

The Republicans have plans to intervene directly in many people’s lives — spending billions on sexual abstinence education, marriage counselling, anti-drug propaganda, a war on steroids, mentoring programmes for former prisoners, and on and on. Got a problem? Bush’s big government is here to help.

Where Republicans once believed that states should have priority over the federal government, Bush has pushed in the opposite direction. Last week the religious right wanted a federal ruling to prevent a Florida woman in a persistent vegetative state from having her life-support cut off. This is a job for the federal government?

They have overruled state laws on medical cannabis and tried to prevent states from making their own policies on gay civil marriage. In the 1980s Republicans wanted to abolish the federal Department of Education, believing local control was best. Bush has all but ended local control, introduced national standards and added a huge increase in federal spending. No wonder Ted Kennedy, the arch liberal Democratic senator, voted for the bill.

How these contradictions can be resolved is hard to see. Is conservatism now paternalist, spending huge amounts of federal money to guide people into more moral lives? Or is it about restraining government so people can make up their own minds how to live?

Do deficits matter? Is the point of foreign policy the pursuit of national interest or the spread of human freedom? Or are they inextricable? Are tax cuts defensible if accompanied by big spending rises? Is American libertarianism dead? Bush’s four years have put all these questions on the table.

In my view if a Democratic president had Bush’s record, the Republican party would have come close to impeaching him for his adventures in big government, fiscal insanity and foreign policy liberalism. But it swallowed its principles and covered up its differences to keep him (and itself) in power. The consequences are slowly becoming clear.

The race to succeed Bush will become, in part, a battle for the future of American conservatism. I have no idea how it will turn out. But I do have one clear prediction: the Republican internal battle in the next four years is going to be bloody. After the mid-term elections in 2006 it will be brutal.
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 10:44 PM       
I think part of the problem is that now that the religious right is in control of the Republicans, a lot of people who ten years ago wouldn't've given half a shit about politics of any kind are now suddenly supporting neoconservatives like they're made of gold. Even if their policies are very incongruent with a conservative philosophy. "As long as they're against abortion, gays and the poor, I'll vote fer 'em."
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Old Mar 20th, 2005, 10:48 PM       
The religious right isn't in control. The religious right are just a huge chunk of the people voting for the people in control. But that's kinda what you just said.
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 06:56 AM       
I don't just see it as being just the "religious right" (which seems to have replaced "middle america" when people want to describe dumb hicks). I don't know if anyone has come up for a term to describe political atheism/secularism but anyone with a moral values agenda scares me. even the good guys stop looking so good. the truth is the religious right as a whole is becoming more cultured, and liberal (and you can compare THAT to ten years ago). the problem is that even with some progress they're still demonized. so instead of it being a fertile time for our nation, in politics, you see this group being challenged, and alienated, greatly in part due to hatred towards bush and the republican old guard. there's a lot of moderates right now who make up this concept of "the religious right".

i'm not sure this adds anything to the conversation, but i cringe everytime i hear that phrase thrown out in such general terms.
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Old Mar 21st, 2005, 11:49 PM       
I think the concept of the "religious right" has become sort of overrated. In fact, the "religious right" is playing a key role in the, er, "deconservatization" of the GOP.

They don't particularly care about the distinction between protectionism and free trade, deficits and balanced budgets, etc. They don't really have an ideological dog in this fight, other than that of Christianity. But that doesn't make them anti-big government. The same places that voted for Bush in 2004 also tended to vote for William Jennings Bryan in 1896. The religious zeal was just as great, if not greater then. The only distinction is that the big "moral" issues in that day tended to be race (which wasn't the same for all Christians) and temperance (ditto).

A certain politicization of so called moral issues has created a more reliable bloc of religious voters in this country. Whereas the issues mentioned above tended to divide the moralists, the ones of today tend to bring them together. This is one reason why a place such as Kansas, once a bastion of progressivism and government interventionism, is now a loyal "Red State."

I dunno, I don't know if what I said was even relevant to what you said, but it's all gravy.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:36 AM       
There are always too types of 'a look at the opposition' editorial.

Firstly, you have "we need action now to stop this!" klaxon type.

The other is a "they're really weaker than they look..." type.

I think the right, as long as it can keep it's members distracted by a few key talking points, can indeed ride out the control longer.

Yes, many of these points have been made at the 'Republicans for Kerry' website. Yes, the doubletalk of small government while nursing new bureaocracies is disturbing, but put plain and simply most of the right doesn't see it, and even those that do aren't necessarily going to change their voting habits over it.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:55 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngPur
There are always too types of 'a look at the opposition' editorial.

Firstly, you have "we need action now to stop this!" klaxon type.

The other is a "they're really weaker than they look..." type.
And Andrew Sullivan would classify as one of these.....?


Quote:
Yes, the doubletalk of small government while nursing new bureaocracies is disturbing, but put plain and simply most of the right doesn't see it, and even those that do aren't necessarily going to change their voting habits over it.
Sure, but eventually, they will. To assume that there will never be an ideological upsurge isn't consistent with history. The conservative movement in this country really gained its fire during Republican administrations.

Eventually, the ideologues that take up the think tanks and help pay for the political mailings and phone banks, as well as the conservative/"new" media, will turn against big government conservatism. The next presidential election will either appease this group, or it'll fire them up.

Keep in mind, when the religious voters aren't happy with the choices, they stay home (ie. the 2000 election). When the ideological conservatives don't like the options, they create an in-fight. If they lose the in-fight, they look to third parties.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:13 AM       
I would say this editorial is a good example of the second.

Now, although I agree with most of your points, I don't understand your classification for 'religious' voters. If you mean fundies, say it. If you mean southern baptists, say it.

The truth is there were many religious voters in the 2004 election, and you would be blind to not say some catholics voted for the catholic candidate.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:19 AM       
My grandparents are Catholics and they voted for Bush.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 01:25 AM       
I'm sure somewhere there was a southern baptist who cast a ballot for Kerry.

This is the point, to not simply say 'they only voted how their preacher told them to'. Kevin's referrence to 'religious' voters encouraged, indirectly, that notion.

People vote how they feel, and sometimes that coincides with their church's stance. I was just making sure the right-bashing thread did not become a God-bashing one.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 10:38 AM       
I think you need a laxative.

Religious, "morally oriented", whatever. It classifies them for what their voting priorities are, that's all.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 10:55 AM       
personally, I think anyone who votes their religious convictions is a dumbass.
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Old Mar 22nd, 2005, 11:33 AM       
I think Andrew Sullivan is quite correct. I wouldn't call W a conservative, a religous conservative or really anything at all. His policies reveal no single coherent ideology or evn the more secular ral politic. W is a perfect cypher for Karl Rove who has only one agenda, and that is the consolodation of power. If that currently calls for a religous conservative stance, so be it. But be sure, if it calls for a retreat from the evenagelicals tomorrow, W will retreat.

In service of this consolodation of power (see Grover Norquists goal of a permanent one party system) there has been a lengthy push to replace speciffic ideology with team spirit. A speciffic ideology would mean that if you were against nation building and your leader began talking about exporting democracy it would trouble you. It would mean that if you passionately believed in states rights and your leader abandoned the concept because he was, well, in charge now and didn't need states rights anny more, it would trouble you.

If however you are a fan/member of the Red team (or Blue for that matter) all that matters is scoring points. Oceana is our steadfast ally. We have always been at war with Oceana.

Right now those who favor a 'culture of life' feel as if they are partisans, not fans. But that's exactly what fiscal conservatives and federalists felt like not so long ago. It remains to be seen what will happen to the so called evangelical vote should their values cease to be a key ingredient in mainatining power.

Just recently at an evangelical conference, there was quite a scripturally based push to do more about the environment and to fight the death penalty. If these views gain prevelance but not enough power to swing an election, we'll get to see who's concerned about God 's will and who a serious fan.
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Old Mar 23rd, 2005, 09:44 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by mburbank
It remains to be seen what will happen to the so called evangelical vote should their values cease to be a key ingredient in mainatining power.
Slightly related, but perhaps more crucial, is whether or not the south maintains it's solid voting pattern. They have done so for just about forever, and historically have had a lock on our legislative branch, as well as our elections, basically since 1870. With the exception perhaps of Goldwater in '64, generally when the South gets behind a candidate, they're tough to beat.

Quote:
Just recently at an evangelical conference, there was quite a scripturally based push to do more about the environment and to fight the death penalty. If these views gain prevelance but not enough power to swing an election, we'll get to see who's concerned about God 's will and who a serious fan.
One day soon, these religious (primarily Christian) voters will hopefully see that neither candidate is totally consistent with their values, yet each represents equally important aspects of it. That could mix things up and make shit interesting.....
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Old Mar 28th, 2005, 12:58 PM       
Since when do you pick on Libertarians?

Compassionate conservatism is not conservatism. Dubya is not a conservative. Compassion is something you feel for something below you. A political movement dedicated permanently to being conservative must have some sort of game plan that involves keeping a certain segment of society in a position that deserves compassion, wouldn't you think?

I would probably have to read more than the first few lines of your posting to see if that's in any way on topic, but I get bored too easily for that.
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Old Mar 28th, 2005, 01:39 PM       
Quote:
Compassion is something you feel for something below you. A political movement dedicated permanently to being conservative must have some sort of game plan that involves keeping a certain segment of society in a position that deserves compassion, wouldn't you think?
smart, but bulshit. It might as well deal with the said segment of society in a compassionate way, up to the point where it is deemed not needing compassion anymore, then the political movement might reconfigure itself to something more relevant to the new set of circumstances. There's no reason why a political movement might desire to be endlessly self-sustaining, and in fact, most of the prominent political movements in recent history made it a point to outline the fact that they have been brought to existence due to the demands of the times, and when times change, they might have outlived their usefulness.


However, I have to agree that 'compassion' presupposes a moral highground and all that
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Old Mar 28th, 2005, 01:57 PM       
I can feel compassion for someone who has it worse than me at the moment, and also acknowledge that their state could well be mine at any point. The moral high ground is nowhere near as stable as folks think, and compassion can be a form of social self interest.

Caring about your fellows welfare is a good in and of itself, (highground? Maybe) but it also encourages your fellows to care about your welfare.

People without compassion, or who's compassion is thin or false generally assume that their swell situation is a sign of God's approval and as such will never be withdrawn. Compassion ought to involve emapthy, not superiority.

That being said, if I'm hungy I'd prefer bread from a man who thinks himslef my better than no bread at all.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Mar 28th, 2005, 11:30 PM       
PREECHR POSTED SOMETHING THAT I CAN READ WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A BATHROOM BREAK! YES!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Preechr
Since when do you pick on Libertarians?
Look down the board a bit, "Libertarianism: Marxism of the Right."


Quote:
Compassionate conservatism is not conservatism. Dubya is not a conservative. Compassion is something you feel for something below you. A political movement dedicated permanently to being conservative must have some sort of game plan that involves keeping a certain segment of society in a position that deserves compassion, wouldn't you think?
I think you're on to something here, which is sort of like what I said in response to abcdefgxxq2r.....

Religious, so-called "conservatives" want to regulate television, they want to regulate film, while at the same time they often emvrace religious forms of expression that tend to blur the lines between state and religion. These are generally the same places that wanted to regulate behavior and alcoholic consumption years ago. They're supportive of federal funds being given to religious charity organizations, etc. etc.

However, I dispute your notion that an expression of charity and compassion makes you less conservative. If anything, the problem with conservatism isn't that its followers are incosistent today, but rather, the ideology itself has been inconsistent over the years.

After all, conservatives such as Metternich and even Disraeli to a
certain degree believed in the empowerment of the masses and the "responsibility" the aristocracy had towards the lower classes and the poor. This "aristocratic responsibility" is the same argument some have made in calling FDR a conservative (an argument I'm sure you laugh at, Preech). Metternich was also an internationalist, much like the dreaded "neo-cons" of the past 20-30 years.

Quote:
I would probably have to read more than the first few lines of your posting to see if that's in any way on topic, but I get bored too easily for that.
You're certainly one to talk.
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