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  #51  
Geggy Geggy is offline
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 02:55 PM       
Pharoah, you idiot...you're whining about us not giving you the freedom to make hate speech...you DO have the right to make hate speech. We also have the right and the freedom to criticize you. Fucking hypocrite.
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 03:00 PM       
On the internet forum moderators have more freedom of speech than regular users. Someone call the ACLU!
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  #53  
Pharaoh Pharaoh is offline
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 03:04 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geggy
Pharoah, you idiot...you're whining about us not giving you the freedom to make hate speech...you DO have the right to make hate speech. We also have the right and the freedom to criticize you. Fucking hypocrite.
What have I said that's hate speech? All I've done is to expose and mock your liberal hypocrisy.
And I don't mind you criticising me, you numbskull, but I think it's out of order to change the title of this topic. I've changed it back now, but no doubt it'll change again. If my words are going to be changed then I may as well be banned, it would be more honest.
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  #54  
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 03:05 PM       
It can be arranged.

And by the way, next time you start a thread, bring something to the table, ok? You haven't exposed anything here. The same people who were outraged over the comments b/f you tried to be clever are still outraged now.

The point wasn't even to debate hate speech, or to discuss the view of homosexuality in the muslim community. It was to try to, uh, make liberals admit something.

You're lame.

The guy isn't being charged, but had he been, it seems like it would've been in compliance with British Law, which apparently was just changed to protect comedians who say bad things about religion.

The real culprits here aren't the liberals, or the gays, or the muslims, but rather British law. Bitch about that.
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 03:38 PM       
Can't we ban him for being a dishonest idiot? With all the shit he accuses "liberals" of, this guy's integrity must be spinning in its grave.
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  #56  
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 04:57 PM       
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Do you mean the same Peter Tatchell who said this about it?
Tatchell was on R4 defending the right for that guy to be allowed to say whatever the hell he likes. He was arguing for free speech. Just in the same way as he is allowed to comment on the crap thats being said by Iqbal Sacranie.

Both points of view were broadcast, and no-one is being prosecuted for it. So what is your problem exactly?
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 05:26 PM       
CRITICISM IS CENSORSHIP.
WAR IS PEACE.
HATE IS LOVE.
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY.
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 05:27 PM       
His problem is that Muslims are taking over your country and you just DON'T SEEM TO CARE!
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 06:02 PM       
I live in constant fear that my nation's cultural heritage of alchoholism, football hooliganism, inadequate dentistry and stone-cladding is in danger of being destroyed by these godless parasites.
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  #60  
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 06:11 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dole
Quote:
Do you mean the same Peter Tatchell who said this about it?
Tatchell was on R4 defending the right for that guy to be allowed to say whatever the hell he likes. He was arguing for free speech. Just in the same way as he is allowed to comment on the crap thats being said by Iqbal Sacranie.

Both points of view were broadcast, and no-one is being prosecuted for it. So what is your problem exactly?
I don't know what you mean. What do you mean by 'that guy'? I've only been talking about what Sir Iqbal Sacranie said.

The point is that Sir Iqbal Sacranie is supposed to be the voice of moderate Islam and yet he was almost arrested for hate speech just by reflecting the teachings of mainstream Islam. So what does that say about Islam in our liberal society?
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  #61  
Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 06:13 PM       
When you say 'our liberal society', what exactly are you referring to?
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 06:22 PM       
He was almost arrested?
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 06:24 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
The point is that Sir Iqbal Sacranie is supposed to be the voice of moderate Islam and yet he was almost arrested for hate speech just by reflecting the teachings of mainstream Islam. So what does that say about Islam in our liberal society?
It isn't because he was muslim, it's because he made the statement publicly, offended somebody (which you will always do), and it's within your law to prosecute someone on those grounds.

Oh, but btw, HE WAS NEVER ARRESTED!

This is the best conversation about nothing I've ever taken part in.
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 06:46 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin
When you say 'our liberal society', what exactly are you referring to?
I mean Iran, where gays are stoned to death. What do you think I mean?
I'm referring to Britain, of course.

And I know he wasn't arrested but the fact that the police investigated the matter is bad enough, it's like a warning.

I'm interested in the clash between the rights of the two minorities, gays and Muslims. Gays to not have hate speech said against them and Muslims to say what Islam teaches. And how the left doesn't really know which minority to support.
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  #65  
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Old Jan 27th, 2006, 07:13 PM       
It IS possible to support both group's rights. Both groups have equal rights to say what they believe, and also to say that they disagree with each other. That isn't the point of this thread, though. You tried to prove something, and you have failed. Now, you're trying to back out saying you were trying to prove something else. Shut up.
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 01:11 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin
When you say 'our liberal society', what exactly are you referring to?
I mean Iran, where gays are stoned to death. What do you think I mean?
I'm referring to Britain, of course.

And I know he wasn't arrested but the fact that the police investigated the matter is bad enough, it's like a warning.

I'm interested in the clash between the rights of the two minorities, gays and Muslims. Gays to not have hate speech said against them and Muslims to say what Islam teaches. And how the left doesn't really know which minority to support.
No I think he mean is we really can't tell what you mean liberal because you blanket every single comment with mentions of crazy liberals.
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 01:16 AM       
So when a moderate Islamic Imam says homosexuality is wrong and the police investigate him (which they would probably do anyways solely for the fact that he's an imam), it's suppose to be a litmus test for the wickedness of Islam?

Oh well it's a good thing Moderate Christians dance under the rainbows with the queers, because otherwise it might seem like

every religion hates gay people...
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  #68  
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 05:11 AM       
Every religion disapproves of homosexuality, that's true.
My point, however, is that leftists always take the side of the minority. That's the basis of all their decisions. It's a simple decision if it's Christians against gays, but if two minorities clash, they don't know what to do, they're lost. You can't support Muslims and gays on this matter, you can only support one.

Conclusion: Leftists are mindless, minority supporting morons.
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 05:32 AM       
And the right doesn't suffer contradictions? See limited government versus imperialism, moral rigidity versus personal libertarianism, name-dropping of Christianity versus defying everything for which Christ stood? Both sides are invariably going to have to make compromises in their own beliefs as part of a two-party governmental system.

Had I been old enough to vote in 2000, I would have gone for Bush. It being that Bush totally fucked up with countless affairs, I voted for Kerry in 2004. BTW, I'm a fiscal liberal and a moral conservative. How do I fit into your little scheme?
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 05:58 AM       
Quote:
Every religion disapproves of homosexuality, that's true.
My point, however, is that leftists always take the side of the minority. That's the basis of all their decisions. It's a simple decision if it's Christians against gays, but if two minorities clash, they don't know what to do, they're lost. You can't support Muslims and gays on this matter, you can only support one.

Conclusion: Leftists are mindless, minority supporting morons.
You are making absolutely no sense. You are just plucking things out of the air and ascribing them to people with no basis in fact. You seem to credit vast groups of people with even less intelligence than yourself.
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 06:34 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethomas
And the right doesn't suffer contradictions? See limited government versus imperialism, moral rigidity versus personal libertarianism, name-dropping of Christianity versus defying everything for which Christ stood? Both sides are invariably going to have to make compromises in their own beliefs as part of a two-party governmental system.

Had I been old enough to vote in 2000, I would have gone for Bush. It being that Bush totally fucked up with countless affairs, I voted for Kerry in 2004. BTW, I'm a fiscal liberal and a moral conservative. How do I fit into your little scheme?
Well you don't sound like a typical leftie to me. I'm talking about mindless morons like Dole who would sooner vote for Osama bin Laden than Bush.

Although I haven't noticed any conservative views on moral issues from you. Probably because you know full well that you'll set off all the usual leftist parrots here squawking 'You're a moron/bigot/asshole' at you.
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 06:42 AM       
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I'm talking about mindless morons like Dole who would sooner vote for Osama bin Laden than Bush.
You know absolutely nothing about me you ludicrous cretin. You are just consistently talking out of your arse and trying to backpedal your way out of it.
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 06:49 AM       
Well, the reason for that is that the vast majority of moral issues should not be legislated. I see homosexuality as intrinsically sinful, but each person has the right to sin and so it would be pointless to outlaw homosexual relations. For how that relates to marriage, I think that marriage as a civil institution should be abolished and replaced completely with civil unions indifferent to sexual orientation. Marriage is a religious ordeal, and shouldn't be anything more.

As for other areas, I am very much pro-life, but I have been less vociferous about it in recent years on these boards. This is not because I'm afraid of being called a moron--that could be construed as a cross I am to bear--but because of the demographics of the boards would make it pointless. If this were a board prevalent with active theists, then I'd argue against abortion until my lungs burst. But, it's not. I am pro-life because I believe in a god who has endowed bodies with souls, and these souls are represented by bodies from the time of conception. However, it becomes a moot point when dealing with someone who does not believe in the soul. I still think that the argument that life can be destroyed out of convenience is a part of a superstructure that must be overcome, but this will either take a lot of time or will never happen. The best we can do to protect the unborn is to gather majority consensus, and legislate accordingly.

Since this is a thread on homosexuality, I'll add the fact that I believe that homosexual inclinations are mostly a part of genetic disposition and social internalizations. Thus, it is not inherently sinful to be a homosexual, but acting upon ones same-sex orientation with sexual acts is sinful in the exact same regard as fornication.

And seeing how more innocents have died as a result of Bush's orders than those of bin Laden's, I fail to see your point.
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  #74  
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 11:00 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
Every religion disapproves of homosexuality, that's true.
Actually, it isn't. In many Native American tribes, homosexuals were revered and treasured as powerful shamans with a special connection to the spirit world that heterosexual people could not achieve. They used to be called berdache people, but that term has been replaced by "two-spirit."

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia.org
These individuals are often viewed as having two spirits occupying one body. Their dress is usually a mixture of traditionally male and traditionally female articles. They have distinct gender and social roles in their tribes. For instance, among the Lakota there was one ceremony during the Sun Dance that was performed only by a two-spirited person of that tribe. (See winkte)

Two-spirited individuals perform specific social functions in their communities. In some tribes male-bodied two-spirits were active as healers or medicine persons, gravediggers, undertakers, handling and burying of the deceased, conducted mourning rites, conveyers of oral traditions and songs, nurses during war expeditions, foretold the future, conferred lucky names on children or adults, wove, made pottery, made beadwork and quillwork, arranged marriages, made feather regalia for dances, special skills in games of chance, led scalp-dances, and fulfilled special functions in connection with the setting up of the central post for the Sun Dance. In some tribes female-bodied two-spirits typically took on roles such as chief, council, trader, hunter, trapper, fisher, warfare, raider, guides, peace missions, vision quests, prophets, and medicine persons.

Some examples of two-spirited people in history include the accounts by Spanish conquistadors who spotted a two-spirited individual(s) in almost every village they entered in Central America.

There are descriptions of two-spirited individuals having strong mystical powers. In one account, raiding soldiers of a rival tribe begin to attack a group of foraging women when they perceive that one of the women, the one that does not run away, is a two-spirit. They halt their attack and retreat after the two-spirit counters them with a stick, determining that the two-spirit will have great power which they will not be able to overcome.
There's also Buddhism:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia.org
In Buddhism, the third of the Five Precepts states that one is to refrain from sexual misconduct. Among the many interpretations of what constitutes "sexual misconduct" are: sex outside of marriage (a relatively modern idea), sex with another person without the consent of your life partner, or the historically prevalent view that it was limited to describe rape, incest, and bestiality.

No Buddhist school prior to the European Imperialism that began largely around the 17th Century had ever described homosexuality as "sexual misconduct". Traditionally, however, monks are expected to be celibate and restrain themselves from all sexual activity.

Buddhist schools condemning homosexuality for laypersons is a recent development and there is no scriptural basis upon which it is to be condemned. The closest would be a few Buddhists who equated homosexuality to disability or being a transvestite, but there was no condemnation in any sense (see also [1]). Buddhist leaders throughout Asia accepted or even sanctified homosexuality.
Hinduism, being the diverse religion that it is, has sects which approve and those which disapprove:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia.org
Hindu views of homosexuality are varying and diverse. This is because the accepted Hindu religious texts do not explicitly mention homosexuality at all. Currently, the debate on homosexuality within Hinduism is controversial, especially amongst Hindus in countries where homosexuality is viewed by many others as acceptable. Furthermore the issue is complicated by the fact that in Hinduism many of the divinities are androgynous and some change gender to participate in homoerotic behaviour. To this day in modern India there are Hijras, transgendered men who have sex with men. They religiously identify as a separate third sex, with many undergoing ritual castration. However these beliefs about Hijras (Khoosras) are merely South Asian cultural beliefs, rather than Hindu religious beliefs. There is great debate over whether homosexuality is permitted in the Hindu religion.
Daoism:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia.org
This has been the traditional view of homosexuality in Taoism, that homosexual acts in it self are not wrong but all men are still required to reproduce. For example, Taoists may have homosexual relations as long as they continue the family tree by having a child with at least one woman. Many modern Taoists who also combine Confucianism have dropped their requirement of heterosexual relations due to medicinal advancements that allow reproduction without such sex, using IVF and/or surrogacy.
Do some fucking research before you open your mouth, please.

How long will it be before he dismisses everything I say for using Wikipedia as a source? Taking bets now, people.
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Jan 28th, 2006, 11:24 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethomas
BTW, I'm a fiscal liberal and a moral conservative. How do I fit into your little scheme?
You don't, but hopefully if you keep it up, you'll make his head pop.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pharaoh
Conclusion: Leftists are mindless, minority supporting morons.

What makes muslims a minority? To my knowledge, Islam is the second largest religion in the world, second only to Christianity with all its sects and divisions (granted, Islam has them too).

Who on this board came across as torn or ashamed for having condemned what this guy said? You're living in a fantasy world, where you are the lonely, heroic conservative being persecuted by all the "mindless" leftists.

Very few people, even on this board, will fit into the cookie cutter you've invented in your mind. The only people with a persecuted minority complex are conservatives such as yourself.
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